Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Unrecognized countries

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This is a list of random thoughts on what we need for our standard template:

  • History - who ruled it, when and why? Has it ever been independent or self governing as part of a larger unit?
  • Why independence - history, key people, causes
  • Nature of the defacto government
  • Ethnic profile/languages - is this self determination?
  • A map of the area
  • Who recognises it
  • Population demographics

Secretlondon 12:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)


one of these things is not like the others - Western Sahara. This is not de facto independent - its basically in the same situation East Timor was where it is internationally recognised but occupied. Morwen - Talk 12:54, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And the postage stamps of course! :-) But seriously, the handling of the daily mail to/from a place usually says a lot about its real status wrt people who are just trying to send a letter, plus philatelists often do the heavy digging to determine whether their objects are real or faked. Is this only for current unrecognized, or historical ones, like Stellaland (was very tough to get details on that one) or Biafra? Is the threshold for "recognition" clearcut? Stan 12:57, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That'd be an excellent start, Secretlondon - thanks!

As well as that-

  • most of these need information on their economies - if it exists at all, there's barely anything.
  • information on the original seperation - such as a war with the recognised country. Even Abkhazia doesn't have wonderful information on how it seperated from Georgia.
  • most of these could do with some details of future prospects, goals, etcetera, which practically none of them have. (i.e. Abkhazia and Somaliland won't settle for anything but independence, South Ossetia has proposed the idea of joining with Russia, Transnistria has proposed a two-state federation, etc).

Morwen - I'm aware that Western Sahara isn't quite the same as the others, but I threw it in because it still doesn't have a seat in the United Nations, part of it has sovereignty, (as the Sahrawi Republic), and the article (and related articles) needed work.

Stan - I'd like to do historical ones as well, but I don't have a decent list of them. I'm also keen, for that matter, to avoid diving into hotly-debated areas like Chechnya. Apart from Biafra and Stellaland, got any others to add to the list? I hadn't even heard of the latter. Ambivalenthysteria 13:00, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

List of entities that have issued postage stamps has a bunch although they're mixed in with colonies and foreign post offices. It occurs to me that if one goes back too far, things get really messy and poorly defined - should every tribe that rebelled against the Roman Empire for a year called an "unrecognized country"? Obvious cutoff points are the establishment of the League of Nations or of the UN, since they instituted a formal concept of who's "in" and who's not. A less defensible criterion ties to the development of nation-states, would start at 1500 or so. A couple of test cases would be California Republic and Republic of Texas - were they unrecognized countries or what? My inclination would be to use the League of Nations as cutoff, at least to start with. Stan 13:01, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think the League of Nations would be a wise cutoff point, too. Ambivalenthysteria 13:20, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've done some thinking about drawing up a template for this. I think we may as well use the entire Countries template, with a few minor changes. Foreign relations would be one area that would be quite different.- in this, we could discuss not only recognition (I think only Armenia recognises Nagorno-Karabakh, Turkey Northern Cyprus and no one any of the others), but their more complex relations with other states (such as Abkhazia and Russia). Most of the other points could fit into Politics and/or Government articles, IMO. And we could put postage stamps on the end as well.

*Ethnic profile/languages - is this self determination?

I don't quite understand what you mean by that, Secretlondon.

Is there anywhere else where we need to depart from the Countries template as it currently stands? Ambivalenthysteria 12:04, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I can understand the addition of Taiwan (though there's such depth there that I don't know whether it's necessary), but I don't particularly like the idea of adding micronations here. That's a different kettle of fish entirely. Ambivalenthysteria 03:55, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • I have removed the micro nations again.Pascal 11:24, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Anjouan

I think Anjouan should be excluded from the list, since it is part of the new constitution of Comoros and has taken part in the April 2004 Comoros elections. I have done some research on the Internet, and have not found any claims that Anjouan is claiming independence right now. Pascal 11:24, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That seems to be the case. It's painful...I can't seem to find any information to confirm either scenario. I guess if they participated in the elections, then it's reasonable to assume the AU managed to work out a solution. My school has a subscription to some good for-pay databases of stuff, so I'll have a look around there and see what I can turn up. I've moved them to the historical section for now.
I've also added a bunch more historical ones, as well as Jubbaland in Somalia. Ambivalenthysteria 12:10, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tibet

Tibet is considered an autonomous region of China; it has a certain level of independence already, and had been independent in the past. It also has a government in exile, its current leaders being Tenzin Gyatso (the Dalai Lama) and Khensur Lungri Namgyel (the Ganden Tripa). --Eequor 02:02, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The current Tibet has no de facto sovereignty and does not qualify. The historical Tibet under Chinese suzerainity can be considered de facto sovereign, but work on that needs to be done at History of Tibet. --Jiang 23:54, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What Jiang said. Ambi 23:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The line for Tibet here says "Tibet (Republic of China)", not People's Republic of China. Therefore it should be under the "Historical" list as "Tibet (Republic of China) (1911-1949)" or "Tibet (China) (1911-1951)" LuiKhuntek 23:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Why would Tibet be here? They're not a country now, and they were a recognised country before the invasion. Ambi 04:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Read here: History_of_Tibet#British_influence. Tibet wasn't recognized but exercised de facto sovereignty over much of the country from roughly 1911 to 1951. (Prior to 1911, the modern nation-state system didn't particularly apply in the region.) That's much like the other "unrecognized countries" on the list.

[edit] Sealand

Sealand might be suitable for the list. Its article is fairly well built out, relatively speaking, but it's the first place that comes to mind when I think of "Unrecognized countries". Maybe I'm just a geek. --Rtucker 23:51, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Micronations are a whole different kettle of fish. Ambi 23:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What delineates between micronationand unrecognised countries? (In this case, I guess I'm asking: Why is Sealand a micronation and not an unrecognised country?)
I'm also wondering if this includes any of the Sovereign States in the US, such as California Republic, which was a recognised country, but -- though the original constitution was never repealed, there has been a new constiution written, and the state has 'been renamed' -- however the original State still exists, and there are distinct differences in the State of California and California Republic, though they both occupy substantially the same geographic area. California Republic is largely unrecognised, even unnoticed, even by people who live within its borders.Pedant

[edit] Inclusion

What is the criteria for inclusion on this list? --Jiang 00:10, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In short - Unrecognized, has sovereignty, isn't a micronation. Ambi 00:11, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"unrecognized" as in absolutely no diplomatic recognition? or just diplomatically isolated? what constitutes "unrecognized"? --Jiang 00:18, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've applied it to all those that are not recognized by the majority of the world today (and thus including Western Sahara and Taiwan). The same issue still applies in those cases. Ambi 00:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What about the historical section? Many state were at one time unreocgnized and gained recognition later on... --Jiang 00:30, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If the unrecognized state can be differentiated from the later one, then add it (like the Irish Free State mentioned). I just want to make one thing clear, though - when I first created this, I had in mind to just do the current ones. However, after someone raised it here, I started going back through the last century or so, and realised that it'd be an interesting project to look at the historical ones too. I know that for many of these, it is a vague classification. Ambi 00:38, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
East Timor, perhaps? Grutness|hello? 01:32, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about Confederate States of America? RickK 00:14, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I haven't gone back any further than about 1890 (and I think Secretlondon agreed with me above on this), because the nation-state, in its modern form, is a fairly recent thing, and before the inception of the League of Nations, there wasn't necessarily a recognized/unrecognized issue.
I've gone back the extra thirty years or so because there's a handful that still seem to largely fit - they were functioning, but internationally ignored. IMO, the Confederate States of America is a case for Wikipedia:WikiProject Historical states. Ambi 00:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A few more for consideration: Nagaland, Chechnya, Kashmir, Tibet, Tamil territory in Sri Lanka, Kurdistan, Bougainville. ISTR there's one in Cameroon, near the Nigerian border as well, but I can't recall its name (NOT Biafra!). And what about areas which are currently within another nation but with strong nationalist tendencies or are semi-autonomous (I'm thinking of the likes of French Polynesia, Nunavut, Basque Country, Padania and even Cornwall, Brittany and Corsica)? Grutness|hello? 01:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

===>Options: The one near Nigeria might be Katanga or Cabinda - an exclave of Angola. I think that this should be limited to current nationalist movements. Some of the ones mentioned in the previous post have been resolved (such as Bougainville). Justin (koavf) 16:24, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team cooperation

Hello. I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using these criteria, and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either featured, A-class, B-class, or Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of all active Places WikiProjects, and if you have any questions, ask me in the Work Via WikiProjects talk page or directly in my talk page. Thanks a lot! Titoxd(?!? - help us) 18:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sealand

Sealand is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 22:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sourthern Kurdistan (aka Iraqi kurdistan)

the current existing entity pledges loyalty to the local government. They claim to be a federal part of Iraq so I do not see why we should be claiming they are not. --Cat out 21:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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