Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains in Japan

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Japan To-do:

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains in Japan page.
  1. March → July 2006

Contents

[edit] Taking a task

If I decide to take on a task from the list of tasks, should I remove the task from the list?Azamiryou 20:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested Japan train-related articles

Feel free to watch/add to/handle the requests listed at Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Japan#Train related. I've pointed to List of Railway Stations in Japan there as well, since there are a bazillion redlinked rail articles there. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tobu Tojo Line article name

The article is currently located at Tojo Main Line. All the other private railway lines (at least in the Tokyo area) append the company name in front. This is true even for other Tobu lines, i.e. the Tobu Noda Line and Tobu Ogose Line. For consistency, shouldn't the Tojo Line be moved to Tobu Tojo Main Line or Tobu Tojo Line for consistency? (Note: also true for Tobu Koizumi Line.) --Polaron | Talk 05:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

On a related note, the article Tōkyū Den-en-toshi Line uses macrons. None of the other Tokyu lines do. In fact, no other private rail line article name currently does. --Polaron | Talk 06:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Discriminating non-JR lines from JR lines in the article titling rule will be inconvinient for users without much knowledge in Japanese railways. If the company could have named so, it should have include the company name because it is "official". But I strongly recommend aliasing without the company name. For fairness, I am a creator of some articles without company names. Soredewa 07:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the main argument for including the name of the company in the name of the line/station for any non-JR lines/stations is the fact that the Japanese tend to do it that way when listing stations, especially since many of the non-JR stations and lines have the same or similar names for their lines and stations. Therefore, the easiest way to differentiate between the JR and non-JR lines/stations is to include the name of the company operating the line/station for any non-JR lines/stations. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bus Stops?

I know the Japanese version of Wikipedia does it, however looking at the page on Shinagawa Station, I was thinking, is it really neccessary to list every single bus stop that stops at the station? I think station articles are about the station themselves (plus more or less the area it services, or immediate area) and the rail services provided to/from the station. I'm not just not sure if its really neccessary to list every bus stop at the station, rather than say, somthing like "outside the station taxi and bus stops can be found" or somthing to that effect. Not sure what everyone's opinion on this may be. Limitedexpresstrain 09:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have mixed opinions on this. In another discussion about stations, the principle of reversability (my word for the concept) was brought up; meaning, that stations need to be cross-listed in town/city/village articles. In the same vein, for remote areas without stations, maybe linking to the nearest train station (with bus service to the town) is not such a bad idea. So, in these cases, the various bus stands themselves don't need to be mentioned in the station article, but the fact that there is "bus service to XYZ and ABC" should be.
In Shinagawa and other large stations, different busses leave from opposite sides of the station. This type of info, while useful, further blurs the line between WP and wikitravel that we are already close to crossing in many ways. Maybe a good example of what to aim for would be Narita Airport#Bus, where the fact that there are busses to major hotels, and surrounding prefectures, is mentioned; but the fact that the bus to Shinagawa Prince leaves from terminal #? is (justifiably) omitted. Neier 07:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, this falls into the category of stuff I wouldn't add to an article, nor would I delete it unless I found it to be outdated or erroneous. Bus routes and stops, destinations, schedules and so forth change so fast that I wouldn't put any more than the biggest highlights into a train article. In my opinion, it's awfully hard to maintain. But if someone wants to add it, as long as it's factually correct, it seems reasonable to me. (Personally, if travelling, I'd rather get the information from a guidebook or bus company.) Fg2 07:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stub image

What about using ja:画像:Kippu.PNG in Template:Japan-rail-stub (see the Japanese version of this stub here). Thoughts? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Much better than 鉄道. I'm sure you intend to create a smaller icon version, right? Neier 21:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I like Kippu.PNG too, and as Neier says, it's much better than 鉄道, which many users of the English Wikipedia won't recognize. - Tangotango 01:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I could create one. I didn't want to bother until I was sure it would be used, though. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've changed the stub image to that of a ticket stub (and even made a small version). ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category deletion notice

I nominated several railway line categories for deletion. Please see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 22#Japan railway line categories for the discussion, and add your comments. Since these categories can only be an abbreviated version of the information in the the line articles themselves, the categories seem useless (but, that is just my opinion). Neier 21:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category renaming proposal

Please see Category talk:Railway stations in Japan for a proposal to rename the train station categories by appending " Prefecture" to the end of most of the subcats.Neier 00:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No need for subcategories, I think

Subcategories in Railway lines of Japan category is not needed, who creates these subcategories is out of rule, isn't he? If he intends on creating these, he should create ones for all the lines in Japan. If you all think it is unnecessary, can you nominate those for deletion? --Izumi5 14:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you be more specific? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Izumi5, I agreed, and made a request for deletion (see two sections above). The consensus felt differently. Neier 04:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that eventually line categories willbe created for all of the lines in Japan. However, there are quite a lot of them, so it will take a little time. I'm working through one line right now. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Railcar Template

I've noticed that the Japanese railroad pages offer a template to present rail vehicle information in a standardized format. Do we have such a template? Should we have one? The template is called {{鉄道車両}} and you can see it in use on the M250 Japanese page. Azamiryou 15:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

{{Infobox Locomotive}} will work for locomotive articles. Slambo (Speak) 15:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category split proposal

Since we currently have at least two ways of sorting stations (geographically, and by line), I think we should split the Category:Railway stations in Japan into two separate branches: one for the location, and one for the line. For lack of being able to think of anything better or more creative, I propose Category:Railway stations in Japan by prefecture and Category:Railway stations in Japan by line as the two sub-category names. If anyone has a better suggested name, fire away. Neier 00:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I like this proposal, though I, too, am at a loss for any better titles for the categories. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
So, anyone else have any thoughts on this? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking Category:Railway stations in Japan by prefecture makes sense.
However, I think Category:Railway stations in Japan by line should rather be something like Category:Railway stations in Japan by company. For example, the article Tokyo Station belongs to the categories Category:JR East, Category:JR Tokai, Category:Tokyo Metro... only 3; whereas if you add up its lines, you'd have perhaps 10 to 15 categories.--Endroit 22:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I like, and I agree that the Category:Railway stations in Japan by company makes more sense. Behemoth14 23:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
So, where would the line categories (like Category:Fukuen Line, Category:Geibi Line, etc) be sorted into? Making a by company category isn't going to eliminate the various line categories, I think. So, Tokyo Station's category bar would still be quite crowded. Neier 23:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying we have to, but Category:Fukuen Line and Category:Geibi Line should be consolidated into Category:JR West according to this logic I suggested. Otherwise if we don't consolidate, that means Tokyo Station should belong to 12 categories, Category:Tōkaidō Shinkansen, Category:Tōhoku Shinkansen, Category:Hokuriku Shinkansen, Category:Jōetsu Shinkansen, Category:Tōkaidō Main Line, Category:Yokosuka Line, Category:Sōbu Line, Category:Chūō Line, Category:Yamanote Line, Category:Keihin-Tōhoku Line, Category:Keiyō Line, Category:Tokyo Metro Marunouchi Line. We could agree not to mention the Shinkansen lines because they are redundant, and that would cut it down to 8 categories for Tokyo Station, which may be acceptable. I don't know, which do you like? It's a matter of style.--Endroit 00:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Why are the Shinkansen lines redundant? Or perhaps you could make a Category:Shinkansen Lines and group Category:Tokaido Shinkansen etc. under it. Actually, that might not work. Behemoth14 00:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Usually, the Shinkansen lines run in parallel to the slower lines and are already covered that way. For example, Tokaido Shinkansen runs the same route (roughly) as the Tokaido Main Line and most of the stations are covered by Tokaido Main Line. It's an over-generalization, and I'm sorry for the inaccuracy. Stations like Gifu-Hashima Station and Shin-Yokohama Station are not covered, so I was wrong. You need to mention all 12 lines for Tokyo Station, including Shinkansen lines.--Endroit 00:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, they mostly run parallel to the major slower lines. Though as you said, they don't all share the same stations. I guess 12 categories, for example, is kind of a large collection, but perhaps it won't matter too much if they're out of the way at the bottom of a page anyway? ...Just use a smaller font. ;) Behemoth14 01:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
If we have categories for each line (and, despite my initial feelings, I now agree that they are a good idea), then, the fact that there will be a ton of categories at the bottom of Shinjuku, Tokyo and other stations is just something we have to live with. As for Category:Railway stations in Japan by line, I like the idea above about sub-categorizing them into railway companies. Thus, I see something like this:
It won't reduce the number of categories on an individual station page (still one for each line, plus one for the prefecture), but, it seems like a reasonable way to categorize the lines.
I also went ahead and made the by prefecture splits because that seems to have a good consensus already. Neier 10:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be good to create a Category:Rail transport in Hiroshima Prefecture and have all the various prefecture-related rail transport cats and articles under that. So basically, it would be like this:
How does that sound? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Nihonjoe's idea and Neier's idea both seem OK and doable, and can coexist. They all seem to be encyclopedic categories. Once I know which trend to follow, I shall follow your examples.--Endroit 19:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Mine is more of an extension of Neier's. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I like that extension very much. Neier 23:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, GANBARIMASU (I'll work on it).... By the way, should category names include macrons or not?
Is it Category:Tōkaidō Main Line?
Or is it Category:Tokaido Main Line?--Endroit 19:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The first. Macrons in cat titles is fine. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Company names in railway line names / Company names in railway station names

I have 2 questions (I'm sorry it's tricky, so read carefully, please) ...

Railway station names and railway line names as a whole are not company names. But if they include company names, do they count as company names or not? Based on WP:MOS-JA, we don't use macrons in company names.--Endroit 05:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've posted the above questions in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Please discuss there. Thank you.--Endroit 05:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Based on the discussions at WP:MOS-JA, I'm satisfied that we will have consensus to macron company names in railway line names & railway station names. Within railway line names & railway station names, we should use Tōkyū, Hankyū, Odakyū, Keikyū, Izukyū, Fujikyū, Tōbu, Keiō, Sōtetsu, etc. I'll start moving them.--Endroit 17:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geibi Line done

I still need to finish up the main line article, and the Hiroshima Station article, but it's done other than those two things. (^_^) ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 15:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Namba Station

I've left a comment at Talk:Namba Station because I'm confused as to why the articles are divided into three rather than four (JR, Kintestu, Osaka subway, Nankai). I haven't gotten any comments for quite a while so I'll divide the articles myself if I don't hear anything. Please leave comments on the Namba talk page if you have any input. Thanks-- Dekimasu 02:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I posted my comments at Talk:Namba Station. Please take a look there.--Endroit 03:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which distance

Fare tables sometimes list two distances between stations: 営業キロ and 換算キロ. I think that the first (Eigyō km) is the actual distance, while the second is only used for fare calculations. My opinion is that we should not care so much about fare info, but, the physical distance when we list information about the stations in each line. I did a quick check, using www.gmap-pedometer.com between Wakuya Station and Maeyachi Station in northern Miyagi (nice straight segments; and, nearly 10% difference in the two distances), and it affirms that Eigyō is the more accurate measure. Should we put something in the style section about this? Or, if I am wrong, and we should use Kansan km instead, then that should be in the style section? Or, maybe it doesn't matter? Neier 00:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...I just found this page which explains it like this (the translation is quick and dirty, so feel free to crrect it if I goofed):
幹線と地方交通線では運賃料率が異なります。詳しくは大型時刻表でご覧ください。
Rates for local and main lines differ. Please refer to the large timetables for more details.
＜営業キロ＞
Business Kilometers
ＪＲ各線の幹線または本州３社及びＪＲ北海道の地方交通線のみをご利用になる場合の運賃計算に用いるキロ数です。また、特急・急行料金などの料金の計算や割引条件・有効期間などにもこのキロ数を使います。
The rate used by all JR main lines, as well as the three JR companies on Honshū and well as JR Hokkaidō for freight rate calculations. Also used for calculating things such as limited and regular express fares, as well as for determining discount rates and terms of validity for tickets.
＜換算キロ＞
Conversion Kilometers
本州３社及びＪＲ北海道の幹線と地方交通線とを連続してご利用になる場合の運賃計算に用いる地方交通線部分のキロ数です。
Used by the three JR companies on Honshū and JR Hokkaidō main lines and local lines for determining local freight rates.
＜擬制キロ＞
Legal Kilometers
ＪＲ四国及びＪＲ九州の地方交通線のみをご利用になる場合の運賃計算に用いるキロ数です。
Used by JR Shikoku and JR Kyūshū local passenger and freight lines for determining rates.
＜運賃計算キロ＞
Freight Rate Kilometers
幹線と地方交通線とを連続してご利用になる場合の運賃計算に用いるキロ数です。幹線部分の営業キロと地方交通線部分の換算キロ（ＪＲ四国、ＪＲ九州については擬制キロ）を合計したものです。
Used in determining freight rates for local and main lines. The sum of the main line "business kilometers" and the local "conversion kilometers" (or the "legal kilometers" in the case of JR Shikoku and JR Kyūshū).
Hope that helps shine some light on this. (^_^) ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-Categorizing

I'm afraid to sub-categorizing as wrong way. My idea is like this:

I speak poor at English, so please correct grammarical mistakes in the titles of the categories, or anything else. 61.112.76.25 21:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


I've thought about this for awhile; and, recently I have been in a smaller discussion with User:Izumi5 who suggested that our categorization should more closely match the categorization on the ja: wikipedia. There is a lot go chew on in both of those, so I'll try to address what I think are the major points.
  • The Category:Railway lines of Japan should be split by rail company, as suggested.
  • The [[Category:XYZ Line]] categories would be more accurately named [[Category:Stations of XYZ Line]] as the anonymous user above suggested. I don't know if creating a subcat from [[Category:XYZ Line]] is the best way to resolve things or not. The [[Category:XYZ Line]] would just consist of that subcat, and the line article in most cases; but, when there are named trains or tunnels, etc, then it makes sense to categorize them as above.
  • Regarding the Japanese wikipedia categorization, they have no categories for the lines. We've already had that discussion, and although I started on the opposite side, I'm convinced that line categories are good. Without line categories, all of the stations are grouped into the main category for the railway company (see ja:Category:東日本旅客鉄道 for an example). Personally, I feel that having the stations in both the company's category and the line's category (as a subcat of the company's category already) is redundant. However, the Japanese articles are sorted that way, so it is not something we should dismiss without discussing it first.

With all of that in mind, here is another suggestion:

and, optionally

This would end up with most stations being in 2+(Number of lines) categories (company, prefecture, and line, line, line, cats). That doesn't seem too bad for the articles, but it may involve a lot of legwork, especially to get some of the existing categories refocussed. Thoughts? Neier 13:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is new articles?

I've been adding many articles from September, but none of them were shown in the "New Articles". What on earth is that? --Izumi5 08:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Izumi5, We welcome users to add their articles to the list. Just go to Template:Newest articles about trains in Japan and edit the list. New articles go at the top of the list. When you list your articles, every Wikipedia reader can find out about your new articles. You can also list your articles at Template:Newest Japan-related articles if you want to.
Thanks for creating many new articles! Fg2 09:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. --Izumi5 10:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Japan Railway Line

Hey, how about add Hide/Show function? It already used on Japanese one, and I think it saves the space of the article. --Izumi5 10:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I am in favor of that. I would also be in favor of a single "frame" around all of the line templates on a single page, that would enable hide/show of all of them at once. Neier 12:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think hide/show for individual line would be also ideal. So it becomes dual hide/show. --Izumi5 14:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The templates are not initially hidden... Can you do something about it? --Izumi5 14:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that if there are four or more hide/display classes on a page, then they are hidden automatically. If there are three or fewer, they are displayed. I haven't found a way to change that yet. Neier 02:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I asked about this problem to Japanese wikipedia, but I doubt if I can get a solution from them for there may be difference between English and Japanese. --Izumi5 09:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for deletion discussion: Yeouinaru Station

Anyone having an opinion on articles about rail stations will be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yeouinaru Station. Fg2 02:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need any pictures?

I live in Osaka and I'm going to be visiting Tokyo next weekend. I'm leaving Japan on the 21st of December, so make the requests quick. I won't be here much longer! --Brad Beattie (talk) 08:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting a photo

I've created {{ReqphotoinJapan}} to allow easy sorting of requested photos by prefecture. This can be used for train stations, too, so feel free to tag stations without any photos. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Yamanote Line

The template looks very unsystematic and it is sure that terminal station of Yamanote line is Shinagawa station. --Izumi5 05:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No one would answer, so I modify it to standard style. However, if you want to, feel free to edit back with some comment on it. --Izumi5 04:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested moves

  • Nara Line (JR) → Nara Line —(Discuss)
  • Nara Line (Kintetsu) → Kintetsu Nara Line —(Discuss)— To make way for redirecting Nara Line to Nara Line (JR) owned and operated by West Japan Railway. Kintetsu Nara Line may be better to redirect to Nara line (Kintetsu) since the subject name Kintetsu Nara Line does not exist as an official name. —KU Talk 01:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I have no objection to moving the article Nara Line to JR Nara Line while preserving the edit history. I believe that's what User:KU wants to do. Fg2 02:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • If we apply the station naming conventions (JR by default), the article should stay at Nara Line. Japanese article is also at ja:奈良線 and the Kintetsu article is at ja:近鉄奈良線. - Neier 02:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Agree with Neier. My old copy of the timetables (時刻表 jikokuhyō?) shows the JR line WITHOUT the word "JR", as Nara-sen (奈良線?). So the article should be at Nara Line. Therefore the Kintetsu one should be at Kintetsu Nara Line.--Endroit 14:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I also agree with Neier. The JR line should be at Nara Line, and the other should be at Kintetsu Nara Line. This is the common convention. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Museum of Railway

The official website and other literature I have seen published now seems to refer to the museum as "The Railway Museum" rather than the odd-sounding "Museum of Railway". DAJF 12:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Sounds good. http://www.railway-museum.jp/top.html uses the new name, as you noted. Time to rename Museum of Railway? Fg2 21:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 7100 steam locomotive

Hello all. I've just created my first trains-related article, translated from the Japanese wikipedia article (ja:国鉄7100形蒸気機関車). I came across it through a link from things named after Shizuka Gozen... I'm happy to contribute to trains articles, particularly Meiji-era trains, which seem to not be covered quite as well as the modern stuff, but I'm afraid I don't know much about trains (and my Japanese isn't the greatest, either), so I would appreciate it if someone could look over my article, both for errors (particularly in the technical stuff) and for style and standard formatting. Thank you. LordAmeth 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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