Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Streetcars

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Welcome to the Talk page for Wikipedia:WikiProject Streetcars. This should become a great place to talk over our ideas and work out our differences.

I am from Richmond, Virginia, where Frank J. Sprague is credited with creating the first successful electric trolley-powered streetcar system on some of our 7 hills in 1887-1888. The last streetcars operated here in 1949. However, Richmond has plans underway here for a heritage streetcar system, such as currently described in the Wikipedia article streetcar.

Please enter new messages at the end of the page. I hope we can have some fun here. Happy Rails!!Vaoverland 23:09, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC}

Contents

[edit] Listing of existing WP articles related to streetcars

For reference purposes, here is a listing of some of the WP articles which relate to streetcars. Please add to the list for project for working purposes. revised Vaoverland 00:35, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] terminology, U.S. vs others

When working on articles for Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains, we have been confronted with a problem in major differences in terminology used around the world. This is going to come up in this WikiProject as well.

Here are 2 examples already:

  • streetcar Should this really be redirected to tram, which is an obscure usage in US? I have never heard the term tram used here except referring to some small rubber-tired people movers used for parking shuttles at places like theme parks and major events.
  • subway should this really be redirected to metro, an inapplicable usage in US? The only time I hear metro used here is occasionally for the formal or slang name of a subway system, such as Metro in Washington, DC.

How can we incorporate the differences and educate everyone?

Comments on the above, anyone? Vaoverland 22:57, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think if the article is talking about a system in an American city, then we should say streetcar. Tram simply isn't used in the United States. Ditto with metro. Mackensen (talk) 23:54, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That is my thinking also. I think we should have articles under subway and streetcar which indicate to SEE metro and SEE tram respectively for the non-North American version, and vice versa, if that is the proper way to differentiate. This would help readers find what they are looking for. This approach would allow us to pull out most of the U.S. related content in each article, and make room for more photos and content. I think the next step would be to post this on the talk pages for tram and metro, and solicit comments and help from other writers to be discussed here. Vaoverland 19:32, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It appear we have a quorum, so I will make it so, and we'll see what we hear. Vaoverland 20:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
Progress Report: already, considerable work has been done to separate the subway/metro and tram/streetcar articles. We now have new articles at subway and streetcar. The need to have these was clearly demonstrated by the comment that we didn't have a famous Pulitzer prize winning play entitled "A Tram named Desire" <gr> 22:21, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that this was reversed, at least for tram and streetcar... believe it or not, they are the same thing and therefore should be on the same page. Separating them just as an excuse to give more attention to the USA is not a good thing.

[edit] Project title and scope

I don't believe the title of this new project is consistent with its scope. The title suggests a general involvement with streetcars/light-rail/trams/whatever. But the scope seems to imply that the project is really only interested in former streetcar systems. Could I suggest that either:

  • the project title is changed to 'WikiProject Historic Streetcars', or
  • the scope is changed to include the many current, new and proposed future systems

If it is the latter, I'd certainly be interested in helping out. If the former, I wish you good luck. -- Chris j wood 16:18, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I can't speak for the initiators of the project, but the new articles Trolley, Streetcar and Subway all deal with past and present. I think that they want the project to advance historic streetcars more than we now see them, but not exclusively. Just my impression. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 16:45, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here is a draft of how we could redefine scope to be more inclusive. It is perhaps a bit wordy, comments?:

[edit] Scope

(first DRAFT revision) This WikiProject aims primarily to expand Wikipedia coverage of urban and interurban public transport rail services, including streetcar, interurban light rail and similar systems. We want to expand information and articles to include historical, current, and future people, companies, technology, and systems. Initially, we will include bus rapid transit, subways, metro, monorail, and heavier commuter rail services. Some of these may form the basis later for a split as the streetcars project progresses. Essentially, we are limiting subjects to land-based transportation of people the majority of whom are traveling 40 miles or less one-way to and from home, school, and places of employment on services which utilize a dedicated right-of-way.

That sounds pretty good. Mackensen (talk) 23:03, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd remove the last bit; as I understand it, interurbans were sometimes used for longer trips. -User:SPUI
Umm... well if the project is streetcars, not rapid transit, or mass transit or urban transit, I can't see the logical scope including bus rapid transit, monorails, commuter rail, and only peripherally, subways or metros. I mean, a streetcar runs in a street (duh!). Light rail is a reasonable extension, but not other things. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 01:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Interurbans were pieces of streetcar systems, nothing like modern commuter rail systems. Sometimes a streetcar company built its line for a long distance, and sometimes a separate company built the interurban. As for subways, those definitely relate to streetcars - the first one in the US (Boston's) was built to take streetcars underground in the downtown area. Ones built from scratch like DC's might not apply to the project though.--SPUI 01:43, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'll disagree that interurban were "pieces" or extensions of streetcar systems. In general (with notable exceptions) the interurban company was a lightweight competitor to steam railroads, leasing the tracks of streetcar systems (or rapid transit systems) to reach downtown; they definitely have that important relationship. But like elevated trains that operated on city streets, they were not streetcars themselves. Having said that, I'm more interested in helping accomplish some of the tasks of this project—define it any way the participants like, but including bus rapid transit and monorails is stretching "streetcars" further than I can. -- Cecropia | explains it all ®
I'm most familiar with New Jersey, in which there was one big company, Public Service. Originally there were a bunch of smaller systems that were brought together and linked using what are normally known as interurbans, connecting its systems. Also, interurban until today redirected to light rail, which is a modern term for streetcars. --SPUI 03:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The project has brought up some important Wikineeds, essentially the necessity of not submerging the US experience in transit to the Eurasian experience (A Tram Named Desire, The Taking of Pelham Ace Deuce Tray), but that is tangential to "streetcars." -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 01:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I will buy the concept that bus rapid transit, subways, metro, monorail, and heavier commuter rail services are generally outside our scope. However, I believe that the electric interurbans are generally accepted by the followers of the streetcars in the U.S., since most used rails of the local streetcar systems in populated areas. I would ask that we include the interurbans in this project. May I assume that everyone agrees that cablecars (IE San Francisco) and funicular inclines (IE Monongahela and Duquesne Inclines in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA, may also be included? Alao, I was trying to define local transportation as opposed to long distance travel, assuming we need to. Comments?

Try this one for revised wording of Project Scope folks:

[edit] Scope(revised 12/27/04)

(revised DRAFT)

This WikiProject aims primarily to expand Wikipedia coverage of urban, suburban, and interurban public transport rail services, including funiculars, horsecars, cablecars, streetcar, interurban, light rail, heritage streetcars and similar systems.
We want to expand information and articles to include historical, current, and future time periods. Subjects should include people, companies, technology, vehicles, rights of way, and systems. Some of these may form the basis later for a split as this project progresses. Essentially, we are limiting subjects to land-based transportation of people the majority of whom are traveling 40 miles or less one-way to and from home, school, and places of employment on services.

Vaoverland 03:44, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

The preceding revised text for Scope has been placed on the Wikiproject Streetcars page. Vaoverland 00:38, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anybody got a photograph of a California Street cable car?

I've just added a section on 'Cars' to the article San Francisco cable car system and I'd like to illustrate the difference between the single-ended cars used on the Powell lines and the double-ended cars used on the California Street line, with recent photographs of both types of car.

I can supply any number of photographs of the single-ended cars, either by moving existing images in the article or by uploading more photos I took on my last two trips there. But I cannot find a usable picture of a double-ended car. Can anybody help?. -- Chris j wood 14:53, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Streetcar/tram/light rail merge?

There's some discussion about whether there should be a split between streetcars and higher-speed light rail. Both sides of the argument are at Talk:Streetcar#Streetcar vs. Light Rail; it would be nice to get more opinions. --SPUI (talk) 17:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

SPUI, please stop merging rail articles into Uberarticles. Wikipedia policy is to have articles under the common names by which the subjects are called, not to invent uncommon expressions: "urban heavy rail" just so we can have super-articles. A person looking for "Streetcar" or "Tram" or "Funicular" should find pages devoted to those topics, no have to wade through a giant article.
It makes no sense at all to have micro-articles for every variants of R1-9 subway car and each subway service but make "light rail" cover every variant of street railway. That is what categories are for. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:59, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement drive

The article on Transportation is currently nominated on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for Transportation there.--Fenice 09:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ideas for reintroducing tram in Mexican town.

I am an architect in Chicago, originally from San Miguel de Allende, Mexico, a very charming, but very crowded colonial town. I love this little town but it's going down the drain fast -little planning, too much real estate demand. I am searching for as much information on electric-powered trams to develop a proposal to the town to generate interest in changing the public transportation methods and introduce electric-powered vehicles.

San Miguel had a horse-powered tram during the first half of the 20th century. It connected the train station (low elevation) with the downtown (approxiamtely 60 meters higher). I believe the return trip consisted of a free fall..

I believe re-introducing the service would raise the consciousness, initially at the tourist/visitor level and ultimately help reduce the number of vehicles and associated parking in the historic center.

I know little about the tram/streetcar topic, so this is a first stab. Can you share your experience with a similar situation, or ideas on how to approach a utility/manufacturer/transit authority in the US, Canada or Europe to sell, donate a fleet for my perpose? I know of sister city relationships that have produced great results in donating fire and rescue equipmnent to undeveloped world locations.

Thank you

Federico Vidargas

[edit] Proposed changes to {{TrainsWikiProject}} for subprojects

I've proposed a change to {{TrainsWikiProject}} that would incorporate links to the various subprojects of WikiProject Trains. Your input on the template talk page would be appreciated. Thanks. Slambo (Speak) 18:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The "Streetcars=yes" parameter now adds articles to Category:WikiProject Streetcars articles. Slambo (Speak) 11:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion: "Wikipedia is not a timetable"

A policy re: station and station stop articles is being proposed for Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains and it has been suggested that it be considered here as well. Please come and comment at User:Mangoe/Wikipedia is not a timetable. Mangoe 19:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] current streetcars?

there seems to be a lot of discussion about changing the "goals" or "mission" but it still seems to be about historic streetcars. are current streetcars valid info for this project?

Justforasecond 17:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The scope on the mainpage mentions "Historic, Current, and Future streetcars," so in short - Yes. However, alot of modern "streetcar" projects are labeled as light rail, so there may be terminology confusion. Skabat169 13:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


Do we still need "This WikiProject is believed to be inactive" at the top of the page? n2xjk 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the inactive tag. n2xjk 18:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 23:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tram and bus stops

Is every tram and bus stop on six continents deserving of a Wikipedia article? How about this one: South Pier tram stop? What's the policy? Is there a policy? Hu 22:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Strongly concurred. Seems like it would be more useful to have a single page about the line, listing each stop in order, than to have a separate page for each stop listing just previous/next. Do we really expect to have viable content anytime soon that would warrant a whole page for just a single stop, vs a sentence or two (if even that much info is available) in a unified list on one page? DMacks 22:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../w/i/k/Wikipedia_talk%7EWikiProject_Streetcars_262d.html"