Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker

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Project revived!

I've archived the old talk, since it's probably mostly irrelevant by now. Yay, fresh start! Flowerparty☀ 00:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• /Archive 1: May 2004 – August 2005

Contents 1 New infobox 2 New Stub Pic 3 Discussion of Stub Templates 4 Tree Template for other snooker tournaments? 5 South African Flag 6 The Lost World Championship Results 7 Userbox 8 Pre 1982 World Snooker Championship ladders 9 Steve Davis article 10 1992/1993 Scores 11 Terry Griffiths/ Steve Davis match 1980 12 Patrick Wallace 13 Jim Meadowcroft 14 Player nationalities 15 Wikiproject Cue sports 16 UK Snooker Championship 17 Resolving the "billiards" ambiguity

[edit] New infobox

Steve Davis
If Steve Davis were a pelican...
Born	22 August 1957
Nationality	English
Nickname(s)	The Nugget, Interesting, Ginger Magician
Professional	1978–
Highest ranking	#1 (7 years)
Tournament wins
Ranking events	28
Non-ranking events	24
World Champion	1981, 1983, 1984, 1987–1989

I've started a new infobox, {{Infobox Snooker player}}, to replace the anachronistic table that's currently being used for biographies. The infobox is in use in Joe Davis and John Parrott's articles. I've tried to cut out some of the cruft, but it looks like it could still do with some trimming, if it's ever going to be feasible for use in Steve Davis' article, for instance. I'm thinking it might be more sensible to list the tournament wins in a table within the article, rather than in the infobox. What do other people think? Flowerparty☀ 05:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Super nice! I agree, they could do with a lick of paint to take advantage of a lot of the newer formatting styles that are now available and make them look a bit less "html table" ish. I see what you mean with the tournament wins. For big winners (Davis, Hendry etc) it would probably look nicer to list separately, but for less successful players who maybe have 2 or 3 wins then they could happily fit inside the infobox. That solution has the unfortunate side effect of creating two classes of infobox, and I don't know if that is a big issue or not. SFC9394 11:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, the tournament wins sections are completely optional, so they'd both use the same infobox, but I don't really like the idea of having a double standard for using it. Snooker doesn't have any sort of Grand Slam equivalent, does it? If it did, we could list only the really important tournaments in the infobox and leave everything else in the article. Perhaps we could have a field for "number of ranking tournament wins", and one for "World Championship best" and just leave it at that? What do you think to what I've done with Stephen Hendry? The infobox is no longer bigger than the article! Flowerparty☀ 16:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know if you were using conditionals or not (I should have checked the infobox source!) - if it doesn't display if there are none then that should solve the problem of 2 types. I would agree with your solution, with something along the lines of:

World Championship Best: 5 times winner (possibly add years, since this is the most important one to win)

Other Ranking tournament wins: 15

Other tournament wins: 25

That way the reader would have a good idea about the players success without having to dive into the big winners tables (which should be there to give full details of what those wins were) - but it would also ensure that the infobox didn't become overly long for big winners. It strikes a nice balance, with the Hendry infobox not letting anyone know how well he did (apart from the fact that he was no. 1), while the pelican box tells the reader too much! SFC9394 16:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've tried adding those fields (see Stephen Hendry again). The text wrapping is slightly annoying, but can you think of anything more concise than "Ranking tournament wins"? I'm also thinking it's a bit World Championship-centric now. Maybe the field would be more useful as, not "World Championship best", but just "World Champion".. I'll probably try that shortly. Flowerparty☀ 01:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it's now just "World Champion", which I think works better. Also, see James Wattana, where I've put the tournament wins in a straightforward list format, which is probably a neater way of doing it. Flowerparty☀ 14:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I see what you meant about the text wrapping - that didn't work too well. The Wattana one looks good - that lists it nicely without being too complex. Good work, SFC9394 14:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The new infobox style looks nice, and the layout is tidier, but do you think we need a field for the beginning of each season's ranking , a 'World Championship Best' field (for player who have not won it yet) and a 'Highest Break' Field?, Oh, and thank you Flowerparty, SFC9394 and all others for helping to revive the Wikiproject! - Nick C 16:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have added the new fields to the infobox, check it out at the Marco Fu article. - Nick C 19:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know I intitially left out some of the stuff that's included in the old table. I'm not sure we really need all of that info though:

• World Championship best - I tried this field earlier (see above), but felt that it was just a bit cumbersome, and makes the infobox too World Championship-centric. Is it that important that a player has reached, say, the quarter-finals in the World Championship?
• Highest break - this nearly always seems to say '147', but never indicates where, or when the player made the break, and doesn't really tell you much about the player. I think this is better dealt with in the article's text (which I see you've been doing, Nick - thanks for that).
• Current world ranking - I guess I'm ok with this one, but it means updating all the articles that are using the infobox when the new rankings are announced. I guess that's not too difficult. How high do the rankings go?

I'm happy to leave these fields in, of course, if other people feel they're useful. Anyway, that's why I originally omitted them. Flowerparty☀ 20:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from for the Highest Break field, I feel it might take up too much of the infobox, so that can be removed if you want, but it gives people who just glance at the article to find out all the information easily, without reading the text :). They do not need to be all filled in anyway. The World Championship may be needed, as this is the biggest tournament of the snooker calendar, much like the World Cup of Football. The Current World Ranking field could be useful too, as I mentioned for the highest break field. Thanks for creating the infobox in the first place! Do we agree that this can replace the old infobox? - Nick C 20:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

This is just a suggestion, but do we need a 'Career Prize Money' field? Someone else suggested adding a 'Residence' and a 'Place of Birth' field but I think that this can be added to the text rather than the infobox. - Nick C 21:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

A career prize money field would be nice if there's a reliable and up-to-date (and easily accessible) place to find such information. Is there such a place? If not, then I wouldn't trust wikipedia editors to fill in that field accurately, to be honest. The birthplace field would echo {{Infobox Biography}}, but 'residence'? That kind of information is only useful for stalkers, right? :) Also, I don't think the football World Cup is an adequate analogy here, since there's really only one international tournament in football, and the World Cup is it. In snooker, any player can qualify for any tournament, no? The World Championship just happens to be the most important. Flowerparty☀ 00:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• I would probably agree that the "Highest Break" is not really needed - at a complete guess but I would suspect that most of the pro's would have made a 147 at some point in their careers. I think the world ranking is a good idea. Perhaps the world championship field could be used if the person has gotten to the finals only (e.g. would list winner - 3; runner up - 4). Along with "ranking wins" that should give a good idea of a players level. The problem if wins is only mentioned can be seen (at the moment) by the fact that Dott is a two times world finalist - yet has never won a ranking event - so that wouldn't show up at all if it was wins only. SFC9394 00:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

That's true, it would be nice to have a field for the players that haven't won a tournament yet. Another way to do this would be to list the player's best performance at any tournament - for instance, Graeme Dott has been runner-up at several events. This is the way worldsnooker.com seem to do it (see Dott's profile). And they also list the career prize money, which is useful. Flowerparty☀ 01:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, a field for player who have not won a tournament yet would be good. Place of Birth and Residence fields are included in the {{Infobox tennis player}}, although I think that the Residence field may not be needed. Data for career prize money can be gained from Worldsnooker.com, but only for the beginning of each season. Anyone care to implement these fields? - Nick C 13:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added all the fields that we agree on, I think. See Graeme Dott's article. Flowerparty☀ 01:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)ore

Looks good! Tidied up the infobox a bit on Graeme Dott's article and re-added some fields, look at the John Parrott article, as he has won few tournaments and the infobox does not look crowded. Anymore fields do you think are needed, or can this replace the original infobox? - Nick C 17:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Aw, you're joking! :) Well, I still don't like listing the tournaments in the infobox. It might not look too crowded on Parrott's article, but it does make the infobox longer than the article itself (at least with my screen resolution), and it means having to use the infobox differently for Davis, Hendry et al than for everyone else, which is confusing. I think it's very easy with these infoboxes to include too much information, making it distracting and dominating when placed in an article, and for me these lists of tournaments cross that line. It would be nice to start replacing the old boxes, though, if we can agree on this. Flowerparty☀ 20:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean. I have removed those list fields in the template. Now all we have to do is fill in the Number of ranking and other wins, instead of listing them. We can list the tournamnent wins in a seperate section. - Nick C 14:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

So it looks like we're ok to start implementing this infobox? I'm sure it could still be improved to make it look better, or whatever, but as long as we're happy with the underlying fields here, I think we should start putting it into use. Hmm, this could take a while. Flowerparty☀ 02:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, we can start replacing the old infobox with the new one, should this be the standard infobox, officially replacing the old one? - Nick C 15:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the project page to make this the standard infobox. Now it's a just case of updating everything in Category:Snooker players :) Flowerparty☀ 01:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The 'image size' setting was broken. I just changed it to 'width' as 1) it works and 2) it's standardised across templates. I did a quick scan of transclusions and it looks like nothing else has been effected. See Allison Fisher for usage example - Alison^✍ 07:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Stub Pic

I have added a picture to the stub template, comments and criticisms welcomed

SFC9394 22:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I like it. It's a bit big though, how about:

Flowerparty☀ 22:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that works better - I couldn't think of much else to use - the triangle of reds is almost clichéd for snooker! SFC9394 22:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a nice bit of chalk. I've included it in Template:Snooker project, where it's looking pretty chic! Feel free to help me adding this template to talk pages - it looks like we could do to advertise the project. Flowerparty☀ 23:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

As an alternative (I'm bored so I just created it anyway - firguring it would be useful somewhere sometime!) is the red balls:

The image could be used for the {{snookerbio-stub}} template. - Nick C 16:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have now added it to the {{snookerbio-stub}} template. - Nick C 19:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of Stub Templates

• Discussion of the stub templates on Snooker are taking place here: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals#Snooker.2C_Snooker_bio_stubs. Please participate if you can. - Nick C 16:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • We are down to Cat:Billiards, snooker and pool stubs, Cat:Billiards games stub and Cat:Cue sports stubs for the stub template categories. (Where are the Stubs marked with the snooker stub templates will go). Please vote which one you want to have as the one you want all the Snooker stubs to go. - Nick C 19:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • It has been decided that Cat:Billiards, snooker and pool stubs will be used, which seems fair. Now we can use the stub templates! - Nick C 12:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tree Template for other snooker tournaments?

Would it be possible to create a template, much like Template:World Snooker Championship Rounds, that can be used to make result trees for other snooker tournaments? as other ranking tournaments have different best of xx frames for different rounds (Does not need to include Best of xx frames, below the Round name). And could the Best of "xx frames" field be made changeable if that is any use. Most of these ranking tournamnents have 32 competitors in the main draw, apart from the Grand Prix. The template could be named Template:Round32, if it does not include the Best of xx Frames variable, much like Template:Round16. - 213.122.38.141 12:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The above comment was by me. - Nick C 13:03, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The one that is there can be modified to make the "xx frames" field changeable if that is any use. SFC9394 13:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the template to make the frame numbers optional (they are added at the bottom of the results), and have updated all the results years that use the template. This also has the advantage of allowing the years to be extended backwards pre 1980. I don't know how far back it should go, but I have taken it to the start of the Crucible Years with 1977. SFC9394 17:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! - Nick C 19:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think that the template should be renamed? As it is not just for the World Snooker Championship now. - Nick C 13:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

True, the template should be renamed. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 19:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've found out that 3 of the 6 current ranking tournaments can use the tree (Malta, China and World Championship) as they are straight knock-out rounds, whereas the other 3 have different formats. So lets keep it named like that, but you can still use it for other articles. - Nick C 17:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

What format do the other three fit in? Are they 16 knock out? If so Template:Round16 could be modified (to get rid of the third placed play-off box) and used as a generic for the other tourneys. I guess the masters will definitely be 16 knock-out, but the others I am not so sure about. SFC9394 18:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The other three tournaments have a wierd format, for example, some players get a bye to the next round. So 16 players enter the first round, then the 8 winners play 8 new players in the next round, so there will be 16 players in the first round, and 16 players in the second round! And you would have to make a new template without the playy off box, as some articles already use this template, such as the Football World Cup articles. - Nick C 16:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, a new template is what I meant. I see what you mean about the format then if they have a lot of custom "knock out/go through" type moves. It strikes me that some of the lower order ranking tournaments may also be liable to change their structures in the future, which wouldn't be too handy for template usage. SFC9394 13:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South African Flag

Should the icon used for the South African flag pre-1994, on tournament results and rankings pages, be the old flag rather than the rainbow nation flag? It seems strange to see Perrie Mans results from 1979 for example, attached to a flag not introduced for another 15 years after! fchd 12:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be the older flag to give the article a greater accurate feel. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 19:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Lost World Championship Results

Well, not exactly lost, but where can the 1991, 1992 and 1993 results be found? The rest were found easily enough. TheMightyMariner 07:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding them as well. - Nick C 13:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I've got a "Rothmans Snooker Yearbook 1991-92" which has the World Championship results complete from 1927-1991, including what looks like all the qualifying rounds as well. I'll type them up when I get the chance if you like. - fchd 15:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

That would be great! Thanks. - Nick C 18:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

1991 Championship Article started, now needs someone else to smarten it up and add the draw-sheet style template. fchd 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Main knock-out has been smartened. Can I double check whether the semi-final scores should be 9-17 & 17-10 rather than the 16's that were in? Also, was the final 18-11 or 18-13? The first para differs from the results section on that one. SFC9394 23:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, 18-11 was correct. I'll also go back and proof-read all the qualifying results later today. 16-9 and 16-10 for the semi scores is correct, in that era semi-finals were best of 31 frames. fchd 05:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

The new userbox created by TheMightyMariner looks good. It can be viewed at the bottom of the main page. - Nick C 14:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! TheMightyMariner 14:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre 1982 World Snooker Championship ladders

I should now have filled most of the World snooker results from 1982 onwards in ladders. Any chance on how to do the eariler years in that format when 24 or less players took part.

Yours, Pete Davis 20:45, 8/5/2006

• Unless it was a straight knockout tournament (with 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 and so on, competitors), a template would be hard to create. - Nick C 17:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Davis article

Hi,

Are you sure all his tournament wins are listed (ranked and non-ranking events?). As from the tournaments listed here, he has won some tournaments that are not listed in his biography. Some other player biographies may be like this as well so we need to check them all.- Nick C 16:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds an incredibly tedious task. The Davis article is correct for the ranking tournaments according to World Snooker, but they might be wrong, of course, and they don't list the non-ranking events. Is there nowhere that lists this information like we do? This profile claims 28 ranking and 73 professional tounraments, whatever they are. Flowerparty☀ 23:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess we have to go through the all the non-ranking tournament pages and see. I think all the ranking ones are listed. - Nick C 15:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1992/1993 Scores

I have put the 1992 in the snooker template, I have 1993 still to do but I don't seem to have time on my hands...I will put the scoring down here so anyone who wants to have a go can...

1st Round: S. Hendry beat D. Fowler 10-1; D. Morgan beat L. Dodd 10-6; N. Bond beat S. Dunn 10-4; G. Wilkinson beat Reynolds 10-4; N. Foulds beat B. Morgan 10-5; M. Clark beat K. Payne 10-6; A. McManus beat R. O'Sullivan 10-7; S. Davis beat P. Ebdon 10-3; J. White beat J. Swail 10-4; D. Mountjoy beat A. Robidoux (Canada) 10-6; Dennis Taylor beat T. Drago (Malta) 10-9; T. Griffiths beat D. Roe 10-6; J. Wattana (Thailand) beat T. Jones 10-7; S. James beat J. Giles 10-2; W. Thorne beat S. Mellish 10-6; J. Parrott beat S. O'Connor (Republic of Ireland) 10-1 Round of 16: Hendry beat D. Morgan 13-4; Bond beat Wilkinson 13-7; Foulds beat Clark 13-7; McManus beat S. Davis 13-11; White beat Mountjoy 13-6; Dennis Taylor beat Griffiths 13-11; Wattana beat James 13-7; Parrott beat Thorne 13-9 Quarter-finals: Hendry beat Bond 13-7; McManus beat Foulds 13-11; White beat Dennis Taylor 13-8; Wattana beat Parrott 13-6 Semi-finals: Hendry beat McManus 16-8; White beat Wattana 16-9 Final: Hendry beat White 18-5

-Evito

[edit] Terry Griffiths/ Steve Davis match 1980

I just changed one match, Terry Griffith lost 13-10 to Steve Davis in the second round of the 1980 world championship, and not 13-2 as originally entered.

- Mitsuko

[edit] Patrick Wallace

I have now added a page for Patrick Wallace.

- Mitsuko

• Cool! Welcome to WikiProject Snooker! Remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). - Nick C 17:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Meadowcroft

I've created a stub for Jim Meadowcroft. It's very limited but a start at least. SteveO 14:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Just updated it a bit :) Mitsuko 10:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Player nationalities

Should players hailing from the United Kingdom be recorded as 'British' or as representing the individual British nations in their infoboxes? I favour the latter, since snooker players traditionally represent England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland given the predominance of British players. But what do others think? It would be good to build a consensus on the issue. SteveO 23:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, as most Snooker players come from the UK. We should have a vote. - Nick C 19:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Cue sports

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cue sports. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? This would be a "parent" WikiProject that would not interfere with WikiProject Snooker, but attempt to do what WPS is doing for snooker with the rest of the cue sports, and keep them consistently organized. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: It is now a "live" project, at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cue sports or WP:CUE for short. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK Snooker Championship

I have now put in results from the UK Snooker championship. So far I have done 1977, 78, 79, 80 and 81 which the books I used to copy out of ended since the book was dated from 1982.

Pete Davis 19.05, 7 Dec 2006 (UTC)

What's your methodology for doing this work? Have you made a fill-in-the-blanks template article? Just curious if there's something you've done to make it less tedious. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resolving the "billiards" ambiguity

Several UK folk have observed that Billiards being the broadest article on cue sports (i.e. instead of Cue sport which is a redirect to Billiards, or being a renamed to something else such as "Billiards-family games") is not optimal, because only Americans and even then only some Americans use "billiards" in such a generic way that it also encompasses snooker. The debate's winding down but could use some additional input: Talk:Billiards#Proposed disambiguation page which seems to be coming to consensus, and the topic immediately above it which may not quite be there yet, but resolution of which the disamb. page depends on. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)