Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal/Archive 1

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Archive 1
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I've started this project on Heavy metal music and it's sub-genres, to improve the standards of these existing articles and create missing articles. Join the Project by signing your name in the Participant's list.

New Rock Star 16:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Good job on creating this, I've seen several articles that really need the attention of knowledgeable metal fans. I'll help where I can. AidanPryde 19:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

Dear Leyasu

Somewhere far below this page, you described a fellow user as someone that has a problem with others disagreeing with him. I do not agree. IronChris was not the problem.

You are. You have been behaving in nothing short of an authoritarian manner over pages that you have been treating as your own private property.

Now, it seems to me that I was the one that sparked off the huge discussion on subgenre that had taken place in my absence. An absence that I would like to note was caused my disatisfaction of your self-appointed role here on the metal pages. I wish I had checked in on this page during that time because there is much that I would have like to contribute on. I do not know how many times I have seen someone on some page somewhere expressed a problem with you. On this page alone, one can easily find several instances. Do I need to compile a list of names and incidents? I hope not because I have better things to do with my time. Yet, you have continued to behave as if you are the dominatrix on a BDSM playground.

I would like to propose that something be done about it because I feel that you have been far more of a hindrance than a help towards improving the heavy metal pages on wikipedia. I would like to propose a vote. Specifically, I would like to ask the other members of the heavy metal project team and anyone else interested to vote on whether you should remain on the project team. But I suspect that both you and I can predict the results fairly accurately. What I would like to know is whether such a vote would even matter to you or would you still persist in treating wikipedia as your private playground? Added by user 86.132.129.13, but signed as Anarchodin 12:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

First off, i dont care what you think of me, if you dont like working with me, avoid me. Do i act authoritarian? In the manner of demanding policys are kept to, yes. If you want a place you can violate any policy you like, try somewhere else. Im authoritarian in the sense of making sure policys are upheld. If you cannot handle policys being upheld, thats your own problem. 86.132.129.13 13:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be worth noting that this ENTIRE section of chat was added by one single person, and that the user in question has ALSO attempted to change his signature into that of Leyasu's. I'm not sure what's going on, but it is worth noting that it probably is not the whole truth. Sincerely, Logical2u 13:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Edward the Great

The Edward the Great article under the To Do list allready exists. Should it be removed or moved to a done title? Absolute Zero 22:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Need to fix the link in the Iron Maiden (band) article. I'll remove the article from the to do list.

NRS(talk to me,mail me or award me a barnstar) 04:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Some work done

Found the two missing Dokken album photos Also, I have done a substantial amount of work on the Chuck Schuldiner page.

--Johnson542 09:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

more work done

i did the article on les binks former drummer of judas priest * Halifax_corey (talk • contribs)

Still Hungry

The Still Hungry ? article is not created. This article is of some other band. I have moved the article to the create list.

Metal Thunder मेटल थणडर|(Talk) 09:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Heavy Metal Music Image (Metal sign)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Metalsign.jpg/50px-Metalsign.jpg

The metal salute (sign) is done with the index finger and pinky NOT index, pinky, and thumb. That image should be replaced with a correct one. Pasajero 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I made a new one. I think it looks a little goofy, but at least its correct. What do you guys think? +Johnson 20:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the first one. The original image is also not in violation of copyright. It should simply be made clear that variations are used, some people using their thumb (as i do) and some not (as per Pasajero), which means using both images. Ley Shade 21:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd have to say that I've been to quite a few metal concerts, and I have never once seen anyone use their thumb. I don't know if you could accept that as a variation, it is just an improper use of the horns. See Devil horns and this. Also, I would like to know how the new image is in violation of copyright, since I made the image. +Johnson 14:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
People do whats comfortable. Putting my thumb in my palm often causes me muscual pain, some people just dislike it, and others have their own reasons. Also, the only thing i know about the copyright is the mumo-jumbo u have to do about listing the picture and stuff, thats what i was getting at. Oh, and the new one looks like yew broke your thumb.
The "copyright mumo-jumbo" is listed at the image page, as per policy. I think it can be recognized that the standard/style of the majority (not variations done by a few people) is as pictured in the new image. And yes, I have broken and jammed my thumb plenty of times. I think it would be appropriate to keep the new picture (or someone else doing the same exact horns) and then use your idea: "It should simply be made clear that variations are used, some people using their thumb" and this is made clear in Devil horns, even though it is not listed as a variation (See the variation section of Devil horns, it can be pointed out. At the same time other variations include things such as "too much metal for one hand" (putting the two fists next to eachother and extending the pinkys), so out of simplicity for the group image for the template I feel that this new picture should be kept. It only makes sense, since this is the way that most people do it. This is the way it was first done, and is the most popular method. +Johnson 20:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest holding a straw poll for a week, with the options of:
  • Picture A) Thumballena
  • Picture B) Jammed And Broken
  • Picture C) To Much Steering Wheel For Me
  • Picture D) This Picture Doesnt Exist
Should work to find an answer well enough. Ley Shade 21:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever makes Leyasu happy. +Johnson 01:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Heavy Metal notice

Hi all. I wanted to ask, what is the "WikiProject Heavy Metal notice" for exactly? Does it have to be on every heavy metal music related article? Also, I just created the pages for Malmonde (a french electro-industrial-death metal band) and Axel Rudi Pell. I was very surprised to find that the latter wasn't already there. It would need a bit of expanding though, and I didn't know if I should create two pages, one for the musician, and one for the band... Sounds a bit too much so I just made one. Also, the stub on André Matos should be expanded, after all, he is quite an influencial and famous vocalist (Viper, Angra, Shaaman). When I get time I'll start a page for Mike Terrana (Rage, Yngwie J. Malmsteen, Axel Rudi Pell, Metalium, Squealer...). Cheers --IronChris 18:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOT for rules on what not to do, such as coining new terms (Ie: Cyber Metal). Also please see WP:NPOV. Anything yew do not feel conficant doing yourself, please list on the to do page. Ley Shade 19:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
OK.... Thanks a bunch for the encouragement here. I feel quite at home now (NOT). Could you tell me why you directed me to the NPOV page? I wasn't aware that either my entries (Malmonde and Axel Rudi Pell) featured POV. And I did feel confident about doing it, which doesn't mean that I couldn't use some advice. But I'm guessing this wasn't the place to ask. --IronChris 20:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologise if i came across in a hostile manner, as that wasnt my intention. Your work was good by creating articles that needed creating. I dont think you put POV in your article on Malmonde intentionaly, sometimes just a simple choice of word can be seen as POV when read by someone else, a trap ive fallen into many times.
The reason i sent yew to WP:NPOV was simply so you could see examples and use it as a fallback guide if you needed to. I also sent you to WP:NOT so you could see your mistake with the Cyber Metal incident, which is now all good.
As for being confidant in doing something, there is somethings im not clued up on when it comes to them, so i list them here to do. I then take over doing the jobs on articles of which subjects im proficient in. That is what i meant.
More so, welcome to the Wikiproject. Ley Shade 20:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Alright, thanks for the advice then. And thanks for the improvements on the Malmonde page, I realise my mistakes. Good day to you! --IronChris 21:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm... my question remains however, where is the "WikiProject Heavy Metal notice" supposed to go? It's not very clear to me, is it just for articles initiated by members of WikiProject Metal, or does it have to be placed on the talk page of every Heavy Metal group article? --IronChris 23:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The notice goes at the top of discussion pages of Wikiproject Metal current projects. You can always add a wiki to the "to do" list and then add the notice to the discussion page, if you like. This project is all about expanding metal, so feel free to discuss in here if you are not sure about anything. You can also contact me if you need help on my userpage. Don't let criticism get you down, for as many users that disagree with you there will be just as many agreeing with you. We need as much help as we can get. +Johnson 23:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

List of heavy metal bands clean up?

The List of heavy metal bands is in dire need of a clean up. As Fuzzypeg states on the talk page, "many of these band names are wikified, but the wikilinks take you to the wrong place" and many bands in the list don't have an article, some of them probably shouldn't be there anyway (no discography, etc.). It also needs a better lay out, maybe a similar one to the artist list on the industrial metal page could be used, it's very neat; apparently it's used extensively on the german wikipedia. I think it's an important page, and should be brought up to Wikipedia standards (which it certainly doesn't reach in its present state). What do you think should be done? --IronChris 02:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Lets just start working. We should make articles for confirmed metal bands that come up as reds on the list, remove non-metal bands, and clean up links. I'll make it an official WikiProject Metal project. +Johnson 04:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have already done a lot of work on creating articles for death metal and doom metal bands and albums and I will go on. Natheless I agree with most of the above. Other List of * metal bands could use some work as well. Spearhead 10:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
  • It wasn't listed, but i did a rewrite of the Will Haven article, which it desperately needed. Kevin Doran 00:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Subgenres & Styles

I do not know about anybody else but I find the list of metal subgenres to be rather messy and unhelpful. The infobox in the main Heavy Metal article lists 13 subgenres of metal and 10 fusion genres. Browsing around, however, would lead one to encounter other infobox that expands the list to include such entries as "melodic death metal" and "blackened death metal" (shouldn't they be covered under death metal itself?) as well as other entries such as Celtic metal and Oriental metal. On the Folk Metal article, someone has even listed a genre known as Pirate Metal.

My objection here is that there are really only a handful of metal subgenres and yet by browsing through wikipedia, one might get the impression that there are more than thirty different metal subgenres. As it is now, I see six different concepts that are being grouped together under the umbrella term of subgenre.

Group 1: The primary style in which the vocals, guitars, drums and bass are being played. Black. Death. Power. Thrash. Doom. Glam (or Pop). Classic. These are metal subgenres that stand alone.

Group 2: The secondary style that is layered on top, over or fused with the primary style. Gothic. Folk. Progressive. None of these subgenres stand alone. A band combines the stylistic elements of folk music, gothic ethos or progressive aspirations with their primary genre - death, doom, power, etc.

Group 3: The manner or approach in which the above groups are brought about. Symphonic. Avant-garde. Neo-classical. Tech (or Math). Speed. These are not subgenres of metal but rather a stylistic preference amongst a diverse array of bands from different subgenres. Some fans who are drawn to a particular stylistic preference might have a desire to label it as a subgenre. You can find bands in the power, black and gothic subgenres using a symphonic approach. You can find bands in the black, gothic or doom subgenres using an avant-garde approach. You can find bands in the power, death or progressive genres using a tech approach. An analogy would be the choice of a first person, second person or third person narrative or approach in a book. I find such terms as Dark Metal and Extreme Metal to be rather redundant but if people insist, they can fit into this group too.

Group 4: Fusion with music outside the family of metal. Funk. Industrial. Grindcore. Alternative. Etc.

Group 5: Regional scenes that develop a particular style unto their own. Gothenburg, NWOBHM, Bay Area, Florida. I believe Oriental metal comes under this group as well.

Group 6: Distinction arising from non-musical consideration. Christian metal. Viking metal. And if someone really wants it, pirate metal.

I believe it would be more sensible to distinguish the above groups from one another as follows. I am referring particularly to the infobox.

Subgenres: Group 1 & 2

Fusion genres: Group 4

Common Stylistic Approaches: Group 3

Regional Scenes: Group 5

Lyrical Themes & Images: Group 6.

This is merely a suggestion to clean up something that I personally find to be rather messy and muddy. I will leave it to you lot in the project team to discuss the merits and lack of with regards to my proposal. Cheers. --Anarchodin 10:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Its already noted to be cleaned up. Also, most of what you said is only half right. Progressive Metal and Gothic Metal are stand alone genres, they do not fuse anything with anything else, except for minor attributes.
For the complete list of Heavy Metal genres, see this article. Also realise that the reason the Heavy Metal template lists only certain genres, is because i removed the ones that do not have any direct connection to the original Heavy Metal style.
Also note, if yew see any non-existant rubbish in infoboxes, like Pirate Metal, you can just delete them and let the project know. I recently had to do this with a host of genres, including Circus Metal, Extreme Goth Metal, and Ghost Metal. Ley Shade 12:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
  • As I've noted elsewhere on WP today, "the battle to avoid over-categorisation in music has been lost." Categorising is important, but inherently subjective. This community needs to be inclusive, for example: "pirate metal" gets 13,000 hits on google (11,600 for "pirate metal" +music) - niche, certainly but not non-existent - so if someone wants to create an article about it that's fine by me. If that article is informative and defines what is different about the topic, let's see some bluelinks and list entries. On the other hand, Ghost metal fails the google test and needs to WP:CHILL. Circus metal falls somewhere in between. But ultimately, excluding such things from info-boxes and lists should be done with consensus, not because anyone regards themselves as an authority on what does and doesn't exist, and what does and doesn't qualify as metal. And that's coming from a card-carrying deletionist. Wikipedia works on consensus (WP:CON) especially to avoid edit warring and POV. Involvement in a Wikiproject should be done in accordance with the house rules.

I've spent some time editing the Stoner rock / metal article, which Leyasu / Ley Shade does not deem suitable for inclusion on heavy metal lists and templates. That's being discussed on a different page, and my intended involvement in this project goes a lot deeper than stoner metal, but it's another case in point. Stoner metal gets over 370,000 googles so dismissing it as a made-up genre doesn't cut it. The only claim that can really be made is that you don't regard it as "true metal" - fine as an opinion but it becomes POV when you start deleting references to it as a sub-genre of metal without consensus. Wikipedia is never going to be the last bastion of true metal and trying to exclude styles or labels you don't agree with is a losing battle. Every genre was "made-up" once but this 2006, the face of what is considered "metal" might have changed, and we need to deal with that. I'm as much a fan of the "true metal" genres as anyone, and I hope to concentrate on encylopedia-building and getting people involved, rather than the minutiae of labelling. Deizio 13:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

first of all there is a whole load of metal genre related articles on WP, most of which are crap. Many POV and narrowminded if they are not mere stubs.

What we needs is guidelines for genre inclusion (see also WP:MUS and the talk page). Further we need to fix the list of actual heavy metal (sub-)genres in the list of heavy metal genres and get a consensus really that this is it. From thereon we can start fixing the actual genre articles, deleting with this consesus in mind all sub-genre articles, merging them where necessary.

One point is that I don't believe that the distinction above is going to work. Most genres grow from other genres and taking incluences from various (sometimes obscure) sources. Imo, although it is a bit subjective (or vague) is that a genre should stand out from other genres, mostly attracting a different audience or having major stylistic and musical differences. Spearhead 16:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
First off, the Pirate Metal article claimed that the bands wrote about Pirating. Well, i could see how that would work, Pirate Metal, bands writing Pirate type music with metal elements, yeah. When the article goes on to list bands with nothing to do with Pirates, and the article says nothing about pirates, and was created by a member of the infamous Coin Terming Yahoo Group, there is a problem.
Genres that exist, are fine. Genres that are notable, with well written out definations, examples, citations and what not, yeah, fine. But what was discussed months ago, was that A) Cross-Genre References wouldnt go on the template, B) Only notable genres would be on the template.
WP:NOT explicitly states coin-terming isnt allowed, so when Yahoo Groups, Anons and Pirate Captains start coining terms to group together their favourite bands, that will get deleted. Which is exactly why Circus Metal, Pirate Metal and the other triad of made up nonsense, gets deleted.
As for the List Of Heavy Metal Genres, that was already extensivly worked on by me and WesleyDodds, amongst its moving/merging/copyediting. So, last time i checked, we should be merging the Cross-Genre Reference articles into one, so that we have them all safe and sorted, and then we can get to deleting all the nonsense articles which me and Spearhead have been doing. Ley Shade 18:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think things are moving here. But here's one for you... First line, "Oriental metal is a crossover between death metal and doom metal". Going deeper, "oriental metal" - which I had never heard of til yesterday despite 15+ years as a metalhead - gets 21,000 google hits and the article mentions a grand total of three bands (2 from Israel, 1 from Turkey) with a list of influences from various genres. Yet this is on the glorious template. I don't have a problem with the inclusion, I have questions about the exclusion of other sub-genres which clearly have equal or greater notability and popularity, and where several genres or styles are also listed as "influences" but have been labelled as a "mish-mash". Pirate, Ghost and Circus metal might not qualify but others possibly do. Nobody can have this "both ways", we have to strip things down to the basics - Thrash / Death / Doom etc. and then have sub-lists, sub-templates etc. - or be a lot more inclusive, and say that (within Wikipedia) any existing article which satisfies notability criteria and is referencing a sub-genre of metal qualifies that as a sub-genre of metal. As far as the "coin terming Yahoo group" goes, I know nothing of this outfit, but instantly don't like the sound of them. I agree on the WP:NOT but am interested to know if Ley Shade still thinks "stoner metal" contravenes WP:NOT? I would also like to hear a better definition of "cross-genre references", especially given the "oriental metal" question. Deizio 22:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Id already deleted Oriental Metal from the template a number of times, so someone else has added that back in. Delete it when yew have the time. The Stoner group article belongs on the rock template. As for genres of metal, someone coining a term is someone coining a term, and no amount of hits on Google will make any difference. Search Gothic Metal on google and youll get only a handfull of pages that have abything to do with Gothic Metal. For term coined 'subgenres', sources have to be provided. If they arent, they get deleted. Simple as. Ley Shade 23:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you're underestimating the popularity of gothic metal there. There's plenty of white noise from jewelery and trinket-related stuff, and plenty about stuff that isn't "gothic metal" as the true metal fan might see it, but also plenty of real stuff as well. Anyway, what's the criteria for "coining a term"? You're glossing over a pretty subjective area here. As I said on another page, everything from "Heavy metal" on down was "coined" at one point. Anything that has been defined as "genre x" in the mainstream music press or respected metal press is about as verifiable as I think we can reasonably push this. And are you talking about deleting entire pages - obviously a job for AfD, or deleting stuff from metal lists and templates. That's still a job for consensus. Deizio 23:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
To help you understand. Coining a term on Wikipedia is in violation of WP:NOT. If the term has been coined elsewhere, and there is significant sources to amount to it being used, we include it here. However, if its a nickname for something else, it doesnt get its own article, it gets mentioned as a nickname for whatever else.
Also im talking about AFD. Core Templates list only the core musical forms, Ie: The Heavy Metal template only lists the core musical forms, the other templates list the subdivisions of themselfs. Ley Shade 09:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


Thx, but you don't need to "help me understand" Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I'm suprised you haven't gone further, as you would dismiss Pirate metal as "made up", yet you can google any number of media sources which reference it. Making up terms entirely for Wikipedia or your own self satisfaction ("protologisms") is obviously not on, using recently coined phrases which might not be widely accepted or have a clear meaning ("neologisms") is a much greyer area. Let WP:NEO be your guide here.
there is also the issue of notability. Then there is a discussion whether it would warrant a article by itself or that it can be included in an existing article (with a redirection). I am very strongly against all metal subgenre information being scattered among dozens of articles that are barely more than a stub Spearhead 15:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If you want the Heavy Metal template to be respected as containing only core genres, I reckon there's a long way to go. Oriental for a start. NSBM a "core genre"? "Blackened death metal" is by definition a crossover, as is "thrashcore". Read the "Viking metal" article recently? And that's just the screamingly obvious ones.
NSBM is one that should be merged into Black metal. Oriental metal should be removed and blackened death metal as well. There is lots of work to do and lots of discussion is needed to reach a consensus on what the core metal genres are. Spearhead 15:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll fully support any AfD proceedings against unnotable articles. I would also support the Heavy metal template being properly stripped down to core genres. In its current state, and per Wesley, it's open to any genres which define themselves as metal, and nobody has the right to delete them because they don't like them. So, strip it down or open it up, what do you reckon? Deizio 15:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Strip it down. Cross-Genre References and Fusion Genres are not core genres, unless they have their own established scenes, and are not part of another. Ie: Symphonic Metal would be a core genre, but Viking Metal wouldnt be. Ley Shade 16:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I love it. But even "symphonic", which the article says "...takes a lot of its musical basis from early Gothic metal, power metal, and classical music" is IMO not really a core genre. Not when you think about thrash / death / black / gothic as core genres. Deizio 20:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
List of heavy metal genres lists it as one. Symphonic Metal = Core Genre, its subsidarys like Symphonic Black/Symphonic Power = Not Core. Get the point now? Ley Shade 22:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
List of heavy metal genres being what, the definitive guide to what Ley Shade thinks qualifies as "core metal genres"? I "get" that you are keen to shape the presentation of metal on Wikipedia. That's OK because we're here to help. Per the quote from the Symphonic metal page above, it still strikes me as a crossover. The Gothic metal article also lists it as a derivative form. The list of bands on the Symphonic metal page contains a total of 10 bands (8 blue and 2 redlinked). Not what I'm looking for in a "core genre", I have to say. That fact you have been heavily involved in "policing" the list of heavy metal genres and Symphonic metal, removing things you don't agree with using terse edit summaries rather than attempting to build any kind of consensus is there for all to see in the page histories, [1], [2]. It's going to totally fuck up this project if we can't all work together. I personally have no axe to grind against anyone, any band or any genre and I'd love to see this project be a success. Deizio 00:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree 100%. IMO, Leyasu needs to WP:CHILL. We need to work together. On a side note, Leyasu has Symphonic metal as a core genre (even thought is has only 8 bands, questioned sources, and is a combination of core genres), and said that groove metal is not a core genre (even though groove metal has 16 bands, is an expansion of one genre, and has the highly notable Pantera along with some other, and the Pantera page discusses the development of groove metal). I don't think either should be a core genre. But what do I know?. +Johnson 06:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Their is far more Symphonic Metal bands than the ones listed. A small list on Wikipedia doesnt summarize 'every' band of a given form. If Symphonic Metal will be left off, thats fine i can understand the reasoning, as all the non-core genres will be on the revised List of heavy metal genres that will be formed after weve got all the cross-genre terms onto one article. Ley Shade 10:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I just found it a little odd that a short article I wrote on Pirate Metal in the article on Folk Metal was deleted for "term-coining". All the bands I listed referred to themselves as Pirate Metal, and there are enough bands to make it a legit subgenre. I didn't just randomly pull a few bandnames out of a hat and slapped a ridiculous title on 'em. But I guess Pirate Metal will get more recognition as the scene grows. --DeadcrowIsland 10:04, 28 April
Without questioning the necessity if this subgenre (I agree that it is a term used by a number of bands, not a mere invention), I doubt that it falls under "folk metal". Running Wild (which is the only pirate metal band I know) doesn't sound like it at all.
There was an AfD for it, and the result was delete, but only at 4 votes to 3. That's not a concensus, so if you create that article again I don't think it necessarily should be deleted. You should find a better place for it though. AfDs are not the ultimate answer, they serve just to test the opinion of other users; if no clear concensus is reached, as in this case, you may recreate the article and improve it by taking into account what was said (in this case, establishing notability and the use of the term). The trouble with the bands you named is that when I checked the Encyclopaedia Metallum, I couldn't find anything on Hardright and Dark Cove, and Verbal Deception only has an EP... not very good for notability.
If you can improve the article/section and establish notability with a good list of known bands, a new AfD can then be made if needed. But there's a lot of people out there who aren't so flexible as me. IronChris | (talk) 05:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, most of the bands are relatively unknown. Most of the ones that are signed are on small labels, but maybe once the scene grows and these bands get more recognition, a better article can be written. DeadcrowIsland 05:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Still Hungry fixed

See Still Hungry, and Still Hungry. +Johnson 04:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Metalhead Category

Hey, I just wanted to mention that I made a category for the metalhead subculture! If you would like to join, please go here

Category:Metalhead Wikipedians

If this is irrelevant on this talk page then please feel free to delete. Thanks! (Wikieizor 11:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC))

Template:Heavymetal - core genres

This area is for discussion of the core genres in relation to the poll. All previous comments that have not been votes are here. Please feel free to debate the genre in its subposition below. Ley Shade

Alternative metal

Avant garde metal

  • Article: "is a cross-genre reference to metal bands characterized by large amounts of experimentation and by non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures." Again, not sure, not convinced it's "core", Delete, not yet sure whether minor or cross-ref. Deizio 13:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Yes, there is a lot of experimentation but if you would keep Folk metal then this is important too. Not because of reasons like is it famous enough or is it something completly new in the Heavy metal but because of the music that is more progressive than most of others. Not that it redefines the sound but it's rich and has a great deal of variations. Unlike Nu metal or Glam metal that just have a "new" formula and then hundred of bands follow it and no variation! +If you throw it of the template other readers may not even know it exists, it's not so easy to navigate through millions of links. I didn't know that it even exists before i checked Celtic Frost's page!!! (Reply here) Death2 03:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge The style mostly refers to black metal bands, but tends to be a reference to progressive qualities. Bands in the style frequently fit into a primary genre. Best example: solefald.
  • Keep. Although it describes an intent rather than a style, it is a convenient category for otherwise unclassifiable bands that span several of the traditional genres, none of which can be said to be the primary. If deleted, spurious sub-genres will flourish. Orphu of Io 21:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Black metal

needs a complte rewrite, top to bottom. Big in albania 11:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

huh... why? It looks OK to me --– sampi (talk•contrib•email) 00:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, read my thought on the Black metal talk page. --XdiabolicalX 17:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Christian metal

?! this is an oxymoron

Classic metal

Death metal

Doom metal

Folk metal

Funk metal

Glam metal

Gothic metal

Thunder, please explain how you come to the conclusion the genre is a cross-ref? Ley Shade

I'd say this style is just a combination of Gothic rock/punk that started first with metal elements. I'd say it is as much a core genre as metalcore... which is. Daevin

Deavin please explain how this has anything to do with Gothic Rock and/or Punk Rock. Can you please read the article on the subject matter as well. Ley Shade 08:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Grindcore

  • Keep. +Johnson 15:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Ley Shade 14:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • NeutralMinor, if this will contain Noisecore, Goregrind and friends I guess it works. Deizio 16:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • keep Spearhead 18:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Deizio. --IronChris 02:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep --PopUpPirate 08:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete --Metal Thunder मेटल थणडर|(Talk) 12:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (who the f==k can delete this ?) =Mangonel 12:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (its ok, grincore is a metal genre) =Neo139 12:58, 14 July 2006 (-3 GMT)

Groove metal

Industrial metal

Neo-classical metal

Nu metal

Power metal

  • Article is clear as mud as to what this actually relates to. "American " and "European" power metal seem to be different sub-genres of metal. The US variant also seems to have a lot in common with "Progressive metal". Deizio 16:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Progressive metal

Speed metal

  • I notice you've just unilaterally deleted Speed metal from the template. Deizio 17:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
It was done before i knew about this vote on this talk page. It can remain for now. But word of warning, if this is kept on, then ALL the Cross Genre References will have to go on. Ley Shade 18:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I would urge everyone to take a look at this article before voting "keep", it defines Speed metal as a crossover which is what we're trying to weed out from the core genres. Also, see next topic below. Deizio 11:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
One option would be to seperate crossover genres in the template. An example would probably be something like {{popmusic}} which has regional variations on a new line. Alternativly, they could be put further down in an "Other topics" section. --MilkMiruku 01:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Symphonic Metal

I have no intention of swaying your vote Deiz anymore past you reading the article. I do agree the article could be improved, as i originally had to do the whole article on my own with no help, so some help improving it would be much appreciated. Either way its on the List of heavy metal genres, so it doesnt matter if every genre and then some isnt on the template. Ley Shade 11:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The core genres in the heavy metal list and template will have to be coordinated. Non-core genres go to section 2, cross genre references. Deizio 11:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
No, they wont.Core Genres and references are different things. Just sort it into Major and Minor - Major is whats on the template, Minor is everything else that is actually a genre. References are all the things already listed there. Ley Shade 11:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
So you're suggesting the list should have "major" (aka "core"), then "minor", then "cross-references"? Seems sensible, but it would have been nice to agree on this first so we could have voted major / minor / other in this poll. Deizio 13:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thrash metal

Major / minor / cross

Building on an idea Ley Shade advanced above, is seems sensible that Template:Heavymetal will contain only the "core genres" - ie the ones "kept" from the poll, while the List of heavy metal bands should have 3 sections; Core (ie the ones on the template), minor (genres with a high degree of "distinct"-ness but not strictly core, and the cross-references, which can contain more or less anything with metal roots and a decent article behind it.

If this is acceptable, then a "keep" vote above is still for the core genres that will go on the template. It is also fine to vote "Minor" or "Cross-ref" instead of "delete", although as not everyone might feel like changing their votes we can sort out these two sections in the next stage of this process. Thoughts? Deizio 11:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What is going on with the colors?

I am not particularly interested in music, but I've noticed a lot of switching around colors on the Infobox, and creating new, inappropriate tempaltes (such as template:Trashmetal, which I subst'ed). In any case, any change in infobox colors should be worked out with the Music genre WikiProject, which maintains a list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres/Colours. Circeus 19:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct the colours then. Apologies for reverting the colour on Speed Metal, i forgot to change it to what you had when i reverted the silly anon. If you want to go back and fix it thats cool with me. Ley Shade 21:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to know if what was going on had to do with the project or random anons. thanks for confirming. Circeus 13:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Symphonic Metal

Also, I think there should be both symphonic black metal and symphonic power metal on the list of heavy metal genres, because they have next to nothing in common, and I don't see why they should be put together. Dimmu Borgir and Nightwish don't really fit in the same category, in my opinion. --IronChris 00:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Symphonic Metal doesnt cross either. Subsidarys are listed on the articles main page. Much like Blackened Death Metal mixes Black Metal with Death Metal, is being moved to the Death Metal article. Symphonic Metal is its own genre and scene, Symphonic Black and Symphonic Power are subsidarys there of, much like Gothic-Doom is a subsidary of Gothic Metal. I also fail to see how Symphonic Power has anything to do with Gothic Metal. And Deiz, i didnt figure to do the Major/Minor thing till i posted that :P Ley Shade 02:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah fair enough on the major / minor, in any case it's a good idea. Deizio 21:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
My problem with treating symphonic metal as a genre is really just that it includes symphonic black metal, which is very different from Nightwish, After Forever or Within Temptation. If we were to restrain symphonic metal to just that kind of "symphonic power metal" then I would totally agree that it is a minor genre. But as long as it is an umbrella term for every kind of metal genres that use symphonic elements I will have a problem with that. --IronChris 23:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Chris. Those bands ARE NOT SYMPHONIC POWER METAL. The Symphonic Metal genre is a genre in and of itself. Gothic Metal bands use Symphonic Metal, but are not Symphonic Metal bands. The article lists Symphonic Power and Symphonic Black in its subsidarys, the same as Gothic Metal lists Gothic-Doom in its subsidarys and Black Metal lists War Metal in its subsidarys. Thus, Symphonic Metal is not a umbrella term. Ley Shade 01:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I think I understand what you mean now. It's just confusing to have the symphonic power and black metal in the same article as symphonic metal; the conclusion I draw from that is that the article is about "symphonic metal, a genre that includes symphonic power and symphonic black metal". If you say that these do not belong to symphonic metal, then I see your point, though maybe it should be better stressed on the article that these are different genres. Or maybe the symphonic power metal section should be on the power metal page, as you seem to insist that it is not the same as symphonic metal, and likewise symphonic black metal should on the black metal page. This seems much more logical to me, since symphonic black metal is hardly even mentionned on the black metal page (despite whole sections dedicated to dubious or even controversial genres such as troll metal and war metal (i mean, wtf!)).
So, following your definition, which bands fall into this category? Because if Nightwish are not classified as symphonic power metal, then I'm really confused when the article states that "Nightwish composes songs that are often classified as either symphonic metal or power metal". Sorry, but I really have a hard time finding a difference between some symphonic metal bands and gothic metal (After Forever, Epica) or symphonic power metal bands (Edenbridge) (which leads me to think it is a cross-genre). If there was a clear separation between these genres I would agree with you all the way, but I fail to see this separation. --IronChris 19:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I would also interpret it as "symphonic metal, a genre that includes symphonic power metal and symphonic black metal", but I fail to see what the problem with that is? A sub genre which contains sub-sub genres is fine, and it's far better to have them on one article rather than fragmented across others. When a subsub can be attributed to two different parents (eg symphonic black metal) it becomes tricker but my gut feeling on this is its better suited to a description on the symphonic page with a link from the black metal page. If it was "black symphonic metal" then maybe it would go on the black metal page. I still see symphonic as one of our "minor" genres but when getting into the minutiae of it I bow to LS's obvious knowledge in this corner of the metal church. Deizio 20:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the source of confusion for me is that LS insists that Symphonic metal is different from symphonic power metal and symphonic black metal, but they are on the same page. That was why I failed to see why it wasn't a cross-genre in his opinion, for me their being on the same page automatically made me think they belonged to the same genre.
"Symphonic" just indicates the use of symphonic elements. So in my opinion this doesn't constitute a genre, just as bands using violins don't all belong to the same genre, or bands using grunts aren't all in one genre either.
Also, as pointed out by several people on the talk page of the black metal article, symphonic black metal is hardly even mentionned. Symphonic black metal IS black metal (see Dimmu Borgir, Hecate Enthroned...) and symphonic power metal IS power metal (see Nightwish, Angra, Stratovarius). Really, if LS can come up with a clear definition of symphonic metal, showing how it is distinct from other movements (including symphonic black and power metal), and a decent list of bands, then I'll agree absolutely that it's a minor genre. It just seems ridiculous to me (and many others) that while the black metal article mentions troll metal and war metal, not a word is said about symphonic black metal.
I don't have a problem with the idea of sub-sub genres, or even with symphonic metal as a minor genre given a clear definition as I said, it's just that putting symphonic black and power as subs of a rather controversial genre (just look at all the discussions it is causing) that only has a handful of bands in its list seems to me to be a mistake. --IronChris 00:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I havo to agree that Symphonic Black Metal is Black Metal and Symphonic Power Metal is Power Metal (I would even goes so far to say that Gothic Doom is Doom Metal, especially if we're going to play with linguistics). I have always wondered why Dimmu Borgir's genre is lumped together with Nightwish's. If thay don't have their own page they should be talked about on the main genre page, not a mostly ambiguous page. marnues 01:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Gothic Metal

Im calling attention to the above article. The article is currently the target for much vandalism, especially from the user Danteferno, who has been placed on 1R a day and has currently claimed ownership of the article and has forbiddon any and all users involved in this project from editing it. I would request that members of the project monitor this article closely for changes, and revert and clean up as and where neccesary. Ley Shade 12:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The genres

It would help greatly if new voters, particularly if new to the project, relatively new to Wikipedia and / or when voting against the "tide" of already cast votes, could give a rationale to support their vote which demonstrates understanding of what we are attempting to do with this poll and the heavy metal list and template, and the definitions of "core" (indicated by a "keep" vote), "minor" and "cross-reference". Also, it should be intuitive that participating in this poll indicates a willingness to abide by the results of consensus built by the poll. Deizio 13:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about subgenres and sub-subgenres

What's going on over on the black metal talk page is just ridiculous. I know we haven't yet agreed on what is a major, minor and cross-ref genre, but we also need to reach an agreement on what subgenres and sub-subgenres can be included on Wikipedia and which can't.

Discussions over "pirate metal" illustrate this. Despite the 14.100 google hits, pirate metal is not considered a valid subgenre by some, whereas others would like to have a section on it in Wikipedia (for my part, I have no strong opinion on it, though I tend to think it is not notable enough by number of bands).

The Black Metal page is facing daily reverts by those who think "faggoth", "troll metal", "war metal" or "cyber metal" should have their own section as a subgenre, and those who oppose this. We cannot keep on like this, the discussions are not leading anywhere and we need to reach a concensus to stop these excessive reverts and avoid edit wars.

I propose that discussions about the validity of sugenres should all be grouped here. I will start a list of controversial genres and sections, and everyone can put their opinion. I cannot stress enough the importance of stopping this ridiculous reverting process, and the inconclusive discussions that are scattered all over the talk pages of different articles.

If a subgenre seems controversial, just add it here and lets discuss it all together. Don't just delete it leaving a 3 word edit summary, this will just lead to more reverts and more frustration. --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

All those silly subgenres are very much of out control on WP. Most should be deleted where some information may be kept in one of the "core genres". Regional scenes should be merged either into a general regional metal scenes article or just into their core genre article. Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This is exactly what we need, but we also need to be confident that the people reverting etc. on Black metal are onboard with this, or at least grudgingly accept the process is happening. It's not a page I'm hugely involved with, are we dealing with otherwise reasonable, dedicated editors who disagree on a few things and can brought round a table, or do we have anons and pure mishchief-makers? Deizio 22:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Faggoth (on the black metal page)

  • delete - just a load of crap Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, neologism, slang, not a genre, per all above. Deizio 22:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete again for the 1000th time. Absolute garbage of the highest order Big in albania 15:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (Never heard of this one) --XylyX | (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per pretty much what everyone else has said. marnues 00:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, like everyone said. It seems to be a made up slang-genre used to describe a type of music somebody doesn't like

Troll metal (on the black metal page)

  • Delete: even less hits on google than pirate metal, most of these bands (finntroll for example) can be considered as folk black metal, a widely accepted subgenre. --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • delete per above Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete it really is just a different name for Folk Black Metal. marnues 01:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

War metal (on the black metal page)

  • Delete: I have never heard of this subgenre, and it doesn't seem to have any clear differences from other black metal styles. The section states the controversy about this term that was made up by one band. "an audial image of war, using buzzsaw guitars, brutal blasting drums, and screeched vocals reminiscent of a war command" doesn't seem enough to justify the creation of a new subgenre. --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • delete not a genre, just a name a couple of bands use occasionally. Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as NN. Big in albania 15:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (This seems childish and unencyclopeadic) --XylyX | (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Pakistani black metal (on the black metal page)

  • Delete: this is just a list of unnotable bands from Pakistan, a totally confusing thing to have at the end of the black metal page. I understand that some people don't want to lose the info, but then why not move it to the talk page, or someone's user page? If no one wants to store it temporarilly on their user page I guess that means no one cares about it. Even if we delete it, it will remain in the history for future reference and can be placed on an appropriate article when one is found. --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • delete - also check out the Iranian metal article Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete now.. Genre and "bands" not even near the "e" of "encyclopedic". Just because they're the only guys in the country growling and grinding into a tape recorder doesn't make them notable. Also regional scenes should be devolved from parent articles unless the style originated there. Deizio 23:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as NN and possiblely as advertisment. Big in albania 15:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep I can not believe how ignorant you guys are. Black Metal bands do not generally aim to be "known" or "famous" and beside the very first notable bands such as Burzum/Mayhem/Darkthrone/etc they generally are not famous. Just because you have not heard of the Pakistani BM scene it doesn't mean it isn't notable. Same goes for the Iranian metal scene which Spearhead wanted to delete because apparently its not "notable". I agree that it should not be on this page (although it should be noted here), but the reason why its here is because it had its own article which you guys wanted to delete off! -- - K a s h Talk | email 14:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Can't say (Keep in Regional if authentic) (Need to know more about this. One can't say much about other regions) --XylyX | (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - The fact that NO-ONE here or anywhere else it seems has heard of the pakistani BM scene means it probably isn't notable. The fact that we cannot find any further info on Google about it means it's not notable. That fact that none of these bands have ever been mentioned in any metal related publication i've ever read that deals in underground BM means they're not notable. These bands and thousands of others of ANY genre are simply too obscure to pass WP Notability criteria. By User:Khashayar Karimi's criteria, there's no band too obscure to NOT have a wiki article. In the words of someone in an AfD debate - "Someone else needs to write about this band first before we do". Big in albania 15:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Comment : Here's what I posted on the black metal talk page : "I tried to find info on those bands. I could find neither Miasma nor Void in the Metal Archives, Taarma doesn't even have a full-length album, and I couldn't find any info on Northern Alliance's discography (either in the metal pages or on google). In fact, Taarma are from Afghanistan, not Pakistan ([3],[4]). You'll have a hard time convincing me that these bands are in any way notable.
I don't think this information should be lost, but it clearly shouldn't be here. If someone wants to learn more about black metal and visits the page, they might think that either these bands are really famous, or it is somehow a big deal that a couple of bands are recording demos in Pakistan. If someone with some knowledge of black metal visits the page, they'll just be really surprised to see such a big section on something they had clearly never heard of and will probably not hear of again unless they go to live in Pakistan. In either case it really doesn't make the article better quality. I don't suppose anyone wants to AfD the section again as it has already been done, but for my part I don't see why this can't be on a separate article and have a link on the black metal page. "
- K a s h , you seem very intent on keeping this section. Why don't you either create a page where this section belongs (Black metal regional scenes or something), or store the information on your user page until a place for it has been found? I mean, if we have a section on Pakistani BM, we'll need to have one on Indonesian BM, Chinese BM, Costa Rican BM, Nigerian BM, Alaskan BM... Unless there is something really important or unusual about the Pakistani BM scene which makes it so special, but the section about it doesn't convey this feeling at all.
And please don't call anyone ignorant, just because we haven't heard of a couple if bands that have recorded a handful of demos in Pakistan and Afghanistan. We're trying to reach an agreement here so let's be civil about it. --IronChris 17:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Brothers, don't be too harsh on - K a s h , he obviously must have listened to some of those bands and would've thought, what the heck, these are great and so they should have an article or at least a section in Wikipedia. Nothing wrong with that Kash, but there is a certain concept called Notability, which is a benchmark for Wikinclusion. Of course, these bands may be notable in their regions' underground scene, but we need to answer this simple question - Have they done anything substantial that has popularized Black Metal (in atleast that particular region ?. Once we get an answer to this question, the issue will be solved.
IronChris and others, we need to understand, that in certain third world countries, rock music may not be that much popular that it warrants a place in Google. We need to know whether the particular movement has made an impact on their domestic scene or not. They may not get international acclaim, but they may have inspired some other younger bands who may do the same tomorrow. I think, sometimes we unintentionally and subconsciously, do become Euro-centric, which is nevertheless not good for an unbiased view.

==--XylyX | (talk) 18:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that. I didn't mean to say that this information should be lost, nor that mentionning Pakistani black metal on Wikipedia is a bad idea. Also I did not mean to be too harsh on anyone, if I appeared so I'm sorry.
Honestly, I think that a section on "cultural impact of BM around the world" or "society's perception of BM" or something of the kind is a good idea. I am aware of the difficulties BM musicians face in many countries outside of Europe and North America. So yes, it would be a great idea to write a section about this problem, and to mention bands from around the world that try to play BM music despite the restrictions. But as you say, Pakistan isn't the only place. There is a mention about black metal controversy in Malaysia, so why not make a section about "black metal controversy" and talk about this phenomenon in general terms? This section could include the problems faced by musicians from Malaysia, Pakistan and other countries, and would belong in the article about BM, unlike the present sections which are rather irrelevant. Making a list of the bands doesn't help at all anyway, except as examples.
What I really object to is : 1)the list of bands (I don't see any lists of bands from other countries here) and 2)focussing on the Pakistani scene without mentionning other countries facing the same problem. --IronChris 18:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
What I am objecting to is for members of this 'project' going around deleting articles. I believe before this section came about here it had its own article which was nominated to be deleted (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakistani black metal) - so it was doing fine until members of this project nominated it, and thats why it is now on this article which I believe is not the right place for it (but again ofcourse it has to be mentioned that there is a BM movement in Asia).

Now you have also asked me why its notable? Well I can't speak for the Pakistan Metal but in Iran Rock bands do not get to do live acts and recently a friend of mine was sent to jail for a month and had to pay £2000 (Thats almost a working year's worth of money for students in Iran where it is 2,500,000 rials) for playing loud (metal) music in his car (in Iran). Now if you knew what this scene means to those people you wouldn't ask for its notability, it's almost a case of exercising human rights for some in these 'Islamic' countries.

Metal Archives lists 24 bands for Iran most being Black or death metal, and if you knew what they have to go through to release material over there, you wouldn't ask for their notibility. -- - K a s h Talk | email 18:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well why don't you write something about that! The section on the BM page doesn't mention anything of it, and as such is pure useless. As I said above (if you read my message), I believe something has to be written about these bands who try their best to play the music they love, but what you mention as being so important is not even mentionned anywhere in this section. So expand it if you have anything to add (and you seem to) and then we can consider keeping it where it is. I don't know about the deletion, I wasn't aware of it, but I agree that the outcome is a bit strange. --IronChris 19:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
You are right though, I just took a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakistani black metal and it is pretty ridiculous. Only 5 users voted (3 to merge with BM, one merge with Pakistani music and one keep), none of which are participating in this discussion. The proposition to merge it with Pakistani music seems to me to be the most suitable proposition, though of course a mention should be made on the BM article. Please people, voting is sometimes plain ridiculous, that's why Wikipedia is not a democracy and discussion is preferred to voting.
I think we all agree something has to be done about this section, so let's forget the pseudo-vote and do what needs to be done. If necessary another vote can be done, in the hope that we get a little more participation. It would be great if the other people who participated in this discussion could say if they preferred the section to be :
  • completely deleted
  • moved to another page
  • made into a separate article again
  • kept and modified. --IronChris 19:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I called this article for AFD. As said above if we include this as an article we need hundreds of more articles or regional black metal, death metal, doom metal and whatever metal that have basically no content and anything far from notability. Anyway, it was voted to be merged into something, either the black metal article or pakistani music (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakistani black metal). As to keep this information the BM article was chosen as a placeholder, until we decided what to do with it and this is actually precisely what we are trying to do. I don't this information is required in WP, nevertheless an article or section about the status or heavy metal music (in general, not BM otherwise, we'd have many article with pretty much the same content) describing the metal position in islamic countries or countries with a oppressive regime (eg. Heavy metal in countries with an oppressive regime or Heavy metal in Islamic countries with dozens of redirects linking such regional scenes to it). Such information is far more interesting and ecyclopedic than listing a bunch of bands that hardly anyone has ever heard of. Spearhead 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally. It would be great if someone with a bit of knowledge on the matter could do that. I'm surprised such a page doesn't already exist. --IronChris 20:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this section is that it is now attracting people to add NN regional scenes as well - i just got rid of a "BM in the Isle of Man" section! Big in albania 09:19, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I actually went ahead to create this article on Heavy metal in Islamic countries and moved most of the relevant texts from other pages to this one. It still needs work on it, esp by some one with who is better informed about these scenes and their problems Spearhead 20:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Re-opened (See my comments above!)
You will not touch the Iranian metal article without discussing in its article again, if you have any other comments about Iranian Metal, ask me. If you think it doesn't have enough content, add expansion tag. It is far from "not notable" and other things which you have decided for yourself. A countries music scene should not be discussed in the talk page of this project where the contributers of the original articles are not informed about the 'decisions' you make. -- - K a s h Talk | email 21:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Pirate metal

  • Weak delete : seems unnotable by the number of groups, though is scores more google hits than troll metal (let alone faggoth). --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete does not exist Spearhead 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Very weak keep, I've seen enough references in at least half-decent media categorising bands as Pirate metal (it's not a genre I'm at all familiar with, so I'm pretty neutral), could be hard to keep out as there's enough of a fanbase that people will keep adding it back in. Probably best where everyone can keep an eye on it. Deizio 22:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as NN. Never heard of it except as a joke. Big in albania 15:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (Comment - Same as what everybody said) --XylyX | (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, but I wish this was a real genre. Pirates rule. +Johnson 06:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Cyber metal

  • Weak keep: I think this article could be kept somewhere, though the black metal page is not the right place. The trouble is, it's very close to other genres such as industrial metal. Maybe a mention of it could be made there. --IronChris 21:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: Personally, as the author of the few lines of text, I feel that this subgenre is originated by musicians from the black metal scene, but the music itself is sufficiently distinguished and evolved from the source to be mentioned separately. Also stage appearances from the artists should be considered differently than the "usual" BM artists. Also, like someone mentioned in talk:black metal, it has more Google hits than faggoth. I think cyber metal worth noting. Brynnar 12:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


  • delete just another load of crap.

What is, and is not, metal

Please lets not get anal about it - I have a fear that we will decend into farce! --PopUpPirate 00:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC) To know what is metal and what isn't metal check this page www.metal-archives.com , its very strict --Neo139 06:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Closing

As you can see I'm beginning to close the debates above. I'm starting with the ones clearly marked as Keep, as core genres. I propose leaving the others open for a further week, hence I certainly don't anticipate making any controversial decisions at this stage. Deizio 16:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Not So Closed

First off, im back, you can all worship me now xD

Second: I noticed someone setup another set of polls. Just to let you know, the polls are completely redundant. Things have been moved and merged and kept after AFD, thus you cannot 'delete' them, at all. Period. Unless you all want banning for AFD violation. That means, you can move them within reason, but NO information must be lost without very good cause. This applies to: Faggoth/Pakistani Stuff/Troll Metal/War Metal. That means, your whole voting process was made redunant.

Thirdly im moving the vote on core genres, and reopening all of them. All previous votes shall be kept and a time limit for ALL of them, will be induced. Ill also personally message every user thats part of this project to alert them of the poll.

You people just fall apart without me :P

Anything else anyone wants to ask, drop down my talk page. Literally, drop down it - its more fun than climbin up it xD Ley Shade 06:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


Redundant? What are you talkng about? The ridiculous AfD's to which about 5 people participated, simply because no one was aware of them? If you were honest you would at least admit that the discussion above shows a clear concensus on deleting most of these section. Therefore I can only question the amount to which the AfD's reflect general opinion. For the Pakistani AfD, 5 people voted : 3 to merge with BM, one merge with Pakistani music and one keep. For the Faggoth section (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faggoth), 4 people voted, including the writer of the section and someone who wanted a derogatory term to classify Cradle of Filth. Talk about being representative! 7 people voted here, unanimously to delete. Please, be reasonnable and stop hanging on. Those AfD's are not representative. As Deizio points out, you seem to take all this into your hands, but you are not the only one here. --IronChris | (talk) 00:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

What to do...=

On To do list subsection Expansion Album articles Perseverance_(album) by Hatebreed is done so... DELETE it from the list, and you could add new albums to the list or... (Reply here) Death2 03:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

New members

I find it amazing the number of new members in just two weeks. As soon as we started all these hardcore changes, the membership probably more than doubled. I guess we pissed a lot of people off, and they said "if we can't beat them, we will join them!" I had to take a wikibreak there was so much anger going around. +Johnson 06:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

sticky

After a few days away from WP I find Ley Shade has decided to reopen the closed genre debates, moved the poll to a different page and changed / created the rules. This is getting far too complicated and new people voting don't understand what they are voting for. If those who had been involved from the beginning could have reached a common position we could have tried to enforce it. 10 out of 10 for telling project members about the poll, much less for making a useful contribution.

The new poll is not linked from the project page or this discussion page, until now. The list of topics above has seen some things removed, others left, others partially removed and should have been removed completely. The idea to vote major / minor / cross ref has been unilaterally binned by Ley Shade as part of a new selection of voting rules that have appeared from nowhere. Some votes were made under the old system and don't make sense now.

"You people just fall apart without me", hmm, things might have actually started to get done without you. This could just succeed in screwing up all the work we put in, and you could be left with a template full of cross-references. Well done Ley, I look forward to seeing what kind of formula you apply when closing the debates, as I'm sure you'll be insisting on taking full control over the outcomes. Looks like some clear cut answers just turned into a lot of "no consensus" because of a flood of new voters unsure what they're voting for (check out some of the comments on the new poll). AfD standards will have to apply and everyone will be watching. This is not the time to start creating future differences of opinion, if I had been around when you decided to do this (or if you had attempted to float new ideas before plunging in) I have a suspicion things would have been better in the long run. Now we'll just have to wait and see... Deizio 23:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

ALERT! Recent vandalism

I'm sure most of you know of the recent block(s) of Ley Shade, and it seems s/he is retaliating. Any edit I make to anything, or any page my name is on in recent edits, was vandalised or vandalistically reverted by 86.143.126.71, likely User:Leyasu in retaliation. Please look out for any vandalistic edits by this or ANY other anonymous IP's targeted at articles I have edited. Thank you all very much. --Ryouga 23:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

This IP is me, the other i do not know, nor do i make a habit of getting in revert wars using IP Adresses. However, i have a message for Ryouga, to which they should stop attacking and changing the articles, until i am unblocked and in a position to discuss the reasoning for the reverts with them properly.
Also note that this user, Ryouga, after going through this article has violated WP:3RR, WP:NPOV, WP:SOCK, WP:CITE and WP:NOT on other 40 articles. Considering they have edited only roughtly 50 articles, thats a lot of Policy violations. Ill also call to attention, the fact the user is undermining the poll held, and is labelling bands as Speed Metal and claiming ownership of this Wikiproject.
I shall deal with this in a more productive way nie time i am unbanned, until then i shall kill this vandalism by Ryouga until they are willing to work as a group, however mismatched, rather than trying to force their POV over everyone, regardless of our Project Polls. 86.132.129.203 00:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Stop whining, everyone. This is stupid. If you are banned, then Chill until you are unbanned. If you have complaints about someone, talk to an admin. +Johnson 00:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
  • WP:CHILL is about not including articles about recent fads and people or events whose long-term notability is far from certain, rather than getting editors to take a deep breath. And I wrote it, so I should know... ;-) As far as the reverting goes, I've brought this matter to the attention of Arbitration Enforcement per a request from Ryouga, but would state that I've done this because I'm neutral and have not edited on any of the affected articles, rather than because I'm taking one side or the other. I hope the wording of my submission at :AE makes this clear. NOBODY wants to see happy, co-operative editors working together on metal articles more than I do. Deizio 01:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Disputed Page Edits

Ok, User:Leyasu and I have come to an agreement on which we will both discuss the following articles and decide the appropriate edits necessary:

   * 18:54, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) The Adversary (album) (rev per leyasu)
   * 18:53, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) City of Evil (rev per leyasu) (top)
   * 18:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Black metal (rev per leyasu) (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) ReLoad (album) (Rv per Leyasu)  (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Black Metal (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Welcome to Hell (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Painkiller (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) S&M (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:52, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) At War with Satan (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:51, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Slayer (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:51, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Ace of Spades (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:50, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Cacophony (band) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:50, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Helloween (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:49, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Load (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:49, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Metal Black (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:49, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Chimaira (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:49, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Possessed (album) (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:48, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Speed metal (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:46, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Children of Bodom (Rv per Leyasu) (top)
   * 19:46, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) List of heavy metal genres (Rv per leyasu) (top)
   * 19:45, 16 April 2006 (hist) (diff) Venom (band) (rv per leyasu) (top)

The reason I am posting this here is so other users can see what edits have/are being/been made. Thus allowing other users to contribute their thoughts and opinions on what should be done. I am doing this so we have more than 2 heads working on these articles, and thus everyone's views can be considered while trying to construct better articles. Thanks --Ryouga 05:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about subgenres and sub-subgenres closed

I have closed the above discussion. Thanks to everyone who participated. Unfortunately, I am afraid that it was all in vain. Indeed, User:Leyasu seems to have decided what should and what shouldn't be considered a valid subgenre.

Let's take the faggoth section for example. Everyone seems to agree here that this section is ridiculous, as shown by the frequent deletions of the section and the 7 unanimous votes in favour of its permanent deletion. But User:Leyasu has apparently decided to keep it, reverting any deletions as vandalism. Well, if that's isn't a clear concensus, I don't know what is! 1 against 7 (8 counting Ryouga)! Good job, very honest.

Oh yes, Leyasu is going to point out that there was an AfD for this section, that everyone can see here. Let me just say that it was the most inconclusive AfD I've ever seen, in which 4 people voted including the writer of the section (probably because no one knew the AfDs were taking place anyway; I certainly didn't), against 7 votes here. But still, Leyasu seems to think he's the owner of every metal-related article and can do what he likes even if it goes against the general concensus.

As for war metal, there appears to have been no discussion, it was just put on the BM page in a rather random fashion, regardless of its notability (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/War metal).

For the fun of it (as nothing can be done as long as Leyasu disagrees), here are the results of the polls :

  • unanimous delete for : faggoth (7 votes), troll metal (3 votes), war metal (4 votes)
  • delete for : Pakistani black metal (4 delete, 1 keep), pirate metal (5 delete, 1 keep)
  • keep/merge for cyber metal (2 keep, 2 merge, 1 delete)
    • Note : there are currently no articles for pirate metal and cyber metal, though the votes seem to indicate that the latter could be suitable.

As for me, I find these disagreements and bickering tiring. Even the sensible discussions are useless as long as there will be some people who think they can decide everything for themselves regardless of the opinion of other people. Deizio illustrates this point perfectly in his message above. I don't want to go on with all this, it's just too annoying and nothing is coming of it anyway. So I will no longer try to edit pages related to heavy metal genres. The black metal page is a very sad sight, but all I've got to say is let it rot, if that's how things are going to be from now on.

I don't know how I feel about leaving "in charge" someone who has been blocked 10 times in 3 months for various offences, but whatever, I'm tired of fighting. Good luck. --IronChris | (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Whoa whoa! Slow down buddy! I'm all for the deletion of faggoth. I left it because I knew it'd be reverted anyway! If you look at my edit I even added it to the disputed area, don't get me wrong. I agree with the deletion, I just don't want anymore revert wars. --Ryouga 20:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I rectified my message. --IronChris | (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's stick to these AFDs. People that were banned and couldn't vote is their own fault/problem. If ppl knowingly revert the changes, they're vandalising and should be treated as such. Spearhead 20:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I think User:Leyasu was the only one banned anyway, right? Either way, I think what you're saying is true. I agree with faggoth's removal, but the anon IP keeps putting it back, so as you can see I've decided to stop trying for now, as it'll probably keep happening anyway, know what I mean? --Ryouga 21:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It's not a good idea to let vandals win. I've looked at the edits the anon IP user has been doing, and they (nearly) only consist of reversions - mostly controversial. Try bringing it up to an admin; and if the reversions persist the article may be semi-protected for a while. Spearhead 21:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the anon IP(s) have already requested a block extension, so I guess we'll wait and see what's done about that. I seriously hope we can clear up these metal pages some day without all the reverts --Ryouga 00:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

First off lets make this clear, to our good friend Chris who obviously has a problem with anybody disagreeing with him. AFD's, are AFD's. You cannot override the decision of an AFD by holding a straw poll and then deleting what is protected by the AFD. If you do, your clearly vandalising, and can get in a heap of trouble. Now there is far worse things than reverting you, such as telling every admin and then some your vandalising. Im not a complete bitch, and i havent done that, i have simply kept the piece there until a better plan is formed that wont violate any AFD policys or such.
Second, im not in charge. Im the self designated secutary, that means i keep track of everything that everybody is doing. If group A is working on one thing and Group B another, and Group A needs the help of Group B but doesnt know where Group B is, i fetch Group B. I keep everything nice and organised. The only reason your not all banned is because ive kept you all out of hot water with the AFD's. And then only reason im doing so is because i got banned for a vioatling AFD by mistake before, so im trying to spare you all singing for nothing.
Third, i hold respect to those users such as Death2, Ryouga, Deiz and Spearhead who actually have the brains to, if they have a problem understanding or agreeing with my actions, that come to my talk page AND ASK ME ABOUT THEM. Unlike Christopher here, who just blatantly fires up a message full of Personal Attacks.
Fourth, i think i may have solved most of the problems for the genre things. Pirate Metal is an AFD job that many times that as i understand, its getting protected from recreation. Cyber Metal has already been through AFD before and was redirected to Industrial Rock/Metal. Faggoth should be moved into the Gothic Metal or Gothic Rock articles. War Metal is voted KEEP in AFD and so stays in the Black Metal subforms, which should be named to Stylistic Divisions or something.
Fifth, anyone got a problem with the above, my talk page isnt far away. Use it. Ley Shade 11:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Tech metal

This article was pretty messy / misleading. I edited it as I could, but I don't exactly know 100% about it. So check it out and please feel free and edit accordingly. --Ryouga 01:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much about it, but there seems to be an incredible amount of overlap with other genres such as death metal... In fact, Wikipedia is the only place where I've ever heard of math metal and tech metal. Seems to me like any genre can be more or less technical, be it black metal, power metal, death metal or whatever. But then as I say, I don't know much about it, so I guess I'll just shut up :D --IronChris | (talk) 04:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The only "real" subgenres that I know of that are classed as math/tech metal are 'technical death metal', 'mathcore' and 'technical metalcore'. other than that math and tech metal are not subgenres, which is what I tried to incorporate in the article. but i myself am not an expert on it, so anything anyone knows will be helpful. --Ryouga 16:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Last i checked this is a recreate of an article already deleted by AFD, and as such should simply be added to AFD.
There is no citations, the term is used half the time to say Progressive Metal and the other half to say 'My Favourite Band'. The bands listed arent even in correct genres, List of heavy metal genres lists it as a cross-ref with better explaining than this article does. This article also violate WP:CITE and WP:NPOV and WP:AFD. As such, this article should be sent to the AFD Cleaners. Ley Shade 11:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I know that BOTH 'tech metal' and 'math metal' are not subgenres, as Ley said, but I know that Mathcore, Technical Death Metal and Technical Metalcore are. If wanted for AFD that's ok with me, since Tech Death Metal is in Death Metal article and Mathcore has its own. I dunno if Tech Metalcore is mentioned in metalcore, though. But do keep in mind it took me a while to get that info and fix up what was before a near-terrible article, so if possible, cleanup would be much preferred. --Ryouga 20:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between mathcore and technical metalcore? I thought they were the same thing. marnues 01:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

As most of my friends consider me an expert on the genre, I'm going to edit the page completely. I will be changing it to Technical Death Metal and editing appropriatly. I don't know what to do with all of the metalcore/mathcore references. A lot of the bands considered technical could fit in deathcore, mathcore, noisecore, technical metalcore or (my preferenece) progressive metalcore. I'll keep those sections on the tech death page until we/I can figure out what to do with it. Is there a hardcore project that would organize those random terms or should we?--Daevin 05:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes there is a hardcore project to organize it. First of, Deathcore isnt a recognised genre, nore is Noisecore. Technical Metalcore/Mathcore/Progressive Metalcore are the same thing, and are already sorted as such. Those sections shouldnt be on the Death Metal page, at all.
Tech Metal should simply have a disambiguation page set, explaining its a term to mean whats on List of heavy metal genres, and then links to the appropriate articles for each disambig. Im sure Ryouga can do that easy enough, as i have several issues requiring sorting out, including the serial vandalism that the Gothic Metal, Children of Bodom and Cradle of Filth articles attract. Ley Shade 15:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I re-did the entire page. I'm going to go through all the bands to edit that a bit more and add band that are missing. I'll be in contact with the punk project people to see if they want to reorganize the core subgenres cause it looks like a complete mess. Once that is cleaned up I will get rid of most all references to metalcore. If anyone wants to re-open a tech metal page, I'd be happy to edit it but the page looked really bad because it would use vague references to prog metal, refer to messhuggah's math metal and overall didn't make any sense. I think my re-do should look more official.

I'm now trying to find any refferences to tech metal to edit those as well.--Daevin 19:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

altho you did a really good job on editting it, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate to include it in the death metal article as it is just a subgenre all together. Spearhead 19:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I copyedited it. Its some fine work, but some things sounded somewhat biased. Technical Metalcore also doesnt have an article, and when i searched around, it was just a repeat of the Mathcore article. The work you have done however, still seems more like you wrote a missing piece of the death metal article, and that a disambiguation page should be made. Ley Shade 20:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit I don't know what you mean by a disambiguation page, however as I develop the article further, it will be clear the list of bands is rather large and will continue to grow as bands like Necrophagist and Beneath the Massacre grow in popularity. It is mentioned on the death metal article and is growing, it is probably about 5 years behind the melodic death metal genre. If we want to rework the death metal article, I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the article, in it's own section, with the 10 subgenres of death metal. I think the articl would need to remain though because of the amount of bands there are that specifically play that style and none other.

Either way, tech metal is a term that isnt a subgenre and applies to all tech death bands and a few other bands here and there. Maybe the disambiguation page is the answer, but the "tech metal" article didn't make any sense.--Daevin 04:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

To help you, a disambiguation page is similar to This one. Merging in the article to Death Metal would also work, as the bands would simply be put on the list of death metal bands, which has its own article (and ironically, already has most of those bands on it). Ley Shade 05:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
If it gets merged with the Death Metal article, the melodic death metal article should also be merged, A new section for brutal death metal should be made, a section for blackened death metal should be included which would just be a lot of borrowing from other sections. It would probably be a more comprehensive version of the Subforms section on the black metal article. In the end, it seems to me that tech death is growing large enough that it would require it's own article or the death metal article needs to be completely redone to acurately document all the sub styles. Furthermore, there needs to be a way for people that are interested in tech death to learn more about bands that are relevant to that style Beneath the Massacre and Anata are completly different bands, but have very little in common with Nile or Grave.
At this point it seems this discussion should be brought to light for more users discussion. It seems it would do more harm than good to shove the tech death article into death metal unless there are more people to fix it and make it look right.--Daevin 05:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The overall theory and plan for the Death Metal article is to revamp it and then list its Subsidarys in a similar manner to the way the Gothic Metal article has listed its subsidary.
As i understand, there is an article on Blackened Death Metal, and obviously with this Tech Metal one there is that. If you wish to take on the charge or revamping the article, feel free to do so and i can copyedit it when your done as i did with the Tech Metal article. When thats done, i will supervise you merging in the subsidarys, as is a current strategy of this project.
Sadly, the whole project is in complete chaos, and i alone have taken it up to keep track of what everyone else is doing, so i can try to warn people when their plans conflict with each other and help mediate agreements. Im completely hopeless at it in all honesty, but nobody else is trying so i might as well.
Either way, if you wish to revamp the Death Metal article, do so, and then ill supervise a merger of the subsidarys. Ley Shade 06:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I think your supervision is not helping; in fact, it is the number one reason I have done essentially nothing with the project since signing on. If project members can't co-ordinate themselves without a supervisor, maybe there shouldn't be a project. Maestlin 16:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I just don't see the use of putting it all under one title. It would be too easy for someone interested in a specific style to ignore Wikipedia completly because it goes to a general death metal article. It also wouldn't be very equivalent to the Gothic metal article because that just features the origin to present and goes into gothic doom, the natural subsidiary. Death metal has too many subsidiaries. A true death metal fan could easily split it into 10 different styles and be able to define each verbally and by listening to a band. I don't think they need 10 different articles, but there are about 5 that should have an appropriate aticle that details the histroy definition and present. Beyond all this, I've shown that tech death has a past and a present number of bands that is detailed enough to deserve to be separate from death metal. Most of the tech death bands can fit into other death metal styles but most media would recognize them primarily as the one style.
There should be a little blurb about it on the death metal article, but the greatness of the internet is that there can be a completly different article for more information.--Daevin 08:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The putting of Subsidarys hasnt just happened on the Gothic Metal article, its also been done on the Doom Metal and Symphonic Metal articles.
It was also decided long before you came, and shortly after i did, that subsidarys go on the main articles page. I understand your contention as originally i argued that Gothic-Doom should have its own article, but when a rule is locked, i guess you just have to do the best with what you have got.
So, do it the same way as the Gothic Metal article does it, explaining the history of the origins and then the break into subsidarys, and a brief section on each. With redirects to the main article, Wikipedia can give people a comphrensive list, and the menu on the article allows them to jump to a specific section if the rest of the article doesnt provide them with relevant reding.
I know Wikipedia is not a paper dictionary, but it also stands that not everything needs its own article. So again, i understand your contention, but this is what we have to work with. Ley Shade 11:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Iranian metal

What to do with this article Iranian metal? I copied most of the content to Heavy metal in Islamic countries; altho it barely contains any content. It went to a farce AFD (was voted keep as "if it is that hard to play metal there, it must be notalbe"). Better redirect the Iranian metal page to Heavy metal in Islamic countries. Spearhead 21:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is fine. If you think it doesn't have enough content, go and find some content and add to it. Stop your efforts against these pages, it's just frustrating. It is not "better" to redirect to it anywhere. It is not better to delete it and its not better to do anything else but to improve them. There is no such thing as a shared scene between what you call 'Islamic countries', and Metal in Iran is distinctive as its mostly inspired by Iran and Iranian history and Persian traditional music being played in a metal fashion. - K a s h Talk | email 21:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Complaint

Please tell your contributer Spearhead to stop trying to get topics deleted and do as he pleases.

Your Metal project seems like its going down the usual road, whats next, deleting Slipknot because its not true metal?!!

This user first tried to delete pages such as Iranian metal and Pakistani black metal, since he wasn't successful, it resulted in yet more uncomfortable actions such as Pakistani black metal being merged with Black metal.

Now he has decided to redirect pages such as Iranian metal to Heavy metal in Islamic countries without any discussion in the article's talk page. His excuse is that there was a discussion here (I can see no discussion regarding the metal in Iran in particular, and the Islamic country idea seems to be only of his own).

I ask you to tell your members not to do such things without discussing them first in the article's talk pages, and if possible contacting the article's contributers first. You can't just decide for everything here without consulting the contributers of the pages. I had raised attention to the topic just here yet generalisation carried on and actions were done without much discussion. Black metal in isle of man section on Black metal article is different to Metal scene of a country which obviously not many people here know about. -- - K a s h Talk | email 21:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, while we have members there is no chairman, no hierarchy and certainly no president within this or any other wikiproject, so no-one is going to tell anyone what to do. Individual editors are free to act as they see fit, and interpret Wikipedia standards and policies accordingly. If an editor deems an article to be unworthy of inclusion, they are within their rights to nominate it for deletion. If an editor thinks a topic can be better illustrated by merging, splitting, expanding, condensing or otherwise editing an article, that's their right.
The subject matter you are concerned about here is at best of borderline encyclopedic value. You're in the wrong place if you think that just because something exists it deserves coverage. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a web directory, weblog or infinite directory of musical knowledge and opinion.
You are of course correct that consensus should be reached when major changes are proposed. However, having looked at the concerns you have expressed I would say WP:BOLD is equally applicable in this case.
The Iranian metal page is incredibly poorly laid out. Wikipedia articles are not lists of external links, bands linked from such pages should be INTERNAL rather than EXTERNAL links, and the article will be edited to reflect that. It is intuitively obvious that notable scenes should contain notable bands, yet I am unsure if any of the bands in this list satisfy WP:MUSIC.
Your edict "You will not touch the Iranian metal article without discussing in its article again" is extremely un-Wikipedian. For the record, I have never previously edited the Iranian metal article or any sub-articles, so you can consider me a neutral in all this. If you have concerns about the conduct of others, you can make a request for comment or, in serious cases, a request for arbitration. Deizio 21:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Please consider that the article was put on Afd and was voted to be kept. So that is not the question, it should be improved, but it has nothing to do with being merged or any other ideas such as being included with Islamic country's metal, which has nothing to do with Iranian metal, most of Iranian metal's lyrics is against Islam and about Iranian history, struggle and Aryanism. -- - K a s h Talk | email 22:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The AfD debate in question by no means demonstrated a massive groundswell of opinion. The keep votes appear to be from "inclusionists" (and are of course no less valid for that) rather than editors knowledgeable about metal music. In the case of "niche" topics such as this, the generic AfD process can only do so much - being "kept" is just the start of the process, after that it is up to interested editors to determine what happens, including possible deletion review or a later re-nomination for deletion if deemed appropriate. Deizio 22:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you have mistaken this for the court of law my friend, but Wikipedia is supposed to be a friendly community where we help it to grow and develop. I created the article, and others have worked on it also. The only reason it has not developed too much is because I have been very busy in the last few months.

Lets not forget that if anyone here is knowledgeable about metal music in Iran, its me here, and I ask you to keep out of that article until I get some time to work on it. -- - K a s h Talk | email 22:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Kash, dude, seriously. "Lets not forget that if anyone here is knowledgeable about metal music in Iran, its me" and "I ask you to keep out of that article until I get some time to work on it" are not comments which a Wikipedian should be proud to put their name to. An article about a scene full of bands which don't have any assertion of notability, and one whose content is almost entirely made up of a list of external links (which hugely violates WP:NOT) is not what I would personally expect to find in an encyclopedia. That my efforts to bring this article in line with both the style (guideline) and verifiability (policy) standards of Wikipedia have now been reverted twice is very disappointing to say the least. Want to link to something useful? How about major media coverage of metal in Iran. There must be some it is notable. If you - and I'm certainly not challenging your expertise here - can't find time to edit the article, perhaps you should allow it to lie low until you have a gap in your schedule. Deizio 23:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Kash : "it has nothing to do with being merged or any other ideas such as being included with Islamic country's metal, which has nothing to do with Iranian metal, most of Iranian metal's lyrics is against Islam and about Iranian history, struggle and Aryanism. "
That's not the point. Iran is an islamic country, Iranian metal therefore fits perfectly in that article. The "heavy metal in Islamic countries" article is not about bands that are themselves inspired by Islam, it's just about bands that struggle to play their own music in countries that don't always view this in a good way. There is therefore no contradiction in the least.
In my opinion, there is no article on "metal in Russia", "metal in Italy", "metal in Mexico", etc., so I don't see why "Pakistani metal" or "Iranian metal" should have their own articles. Bands from these countries are not more notable than those from other countries, I don't see why they should be an exception. "Metal in Islamic countries" is a good idea on the other hand, because bands in these countries face distinctive problems to play the music they love. I have therefore no problem with that kind of article.
Please remember that 1) members of this WikiProject are not tied to it and act on their own accord, 2) an article belongs to no-one, and may be editted by anyone as they see fit. Discussions are good, but it seems that they fall a bit short lately, no-one can agree with anyone else, anonymous IPs reverting any constructive changes, *virtually* one-man AfDs overrulling other people's editing decisions... We all seem a bit tense around here at the moment and so maybe we should just all remember to WP:CHILL. --IronChris | (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Epic metal

As we seem to be going through genre articles to put a bit of order at the moment, I would like to know what other people think about the article epic metal. It seems to me to be very badly written, lacks references and overlaps greatly with other genres. Something has to be done, I would even consider an AfD as the article is very confusing in its present state and doesn't seem to add much, but the result would probably be keep (as usual). What do you guys think about it? --IronChris | (talk) 03:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. Are Manowar primarily defineable as "epic metal"? No, the entire piece is subjectively describing a cross-reference. Only one band on the page is described on its own page as "epic", and even then as "epic heavy metal". Inclusion of power metal and battle metal is also confusing. Needs complete rewrite and sources at the very least. These AfD's are tricky, as when shown to the wider community the inclusionists can immediately point to google references and deletionists get scared off without really considering the importance of the genre. Deizio 08:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
When asking for the AFD, explain the purpose of the AFD, show the poll thats being run, show the List of heavy metal genres, and explain everything as IronChris has done. Then explain the aim is to merge all cross-genre references into one article. Job done. Ley Shade 15:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Improving genre articles

If anyone here has the time, please check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres/Assessment and update it with the status of metal related genres. This is being done in conjunction with WP:WVWP to try and get genre articles up to 1.0 standards. I've made a start by adding some metal genre articles but any help would be appreciated.

P.S. You might want to look at starting your own WikiProject Metal article assessment for related articles as it's a great way to keep track of what's needing work done. --MilkMiruku 01:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Having read the article, im somewhat confused on how to effectivly use it. Is there not some place that we post articles for assesment? Ley Shade 21:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Metal observer reviews

To many articles, some one has recently been adding Metal Observer reviews in the infobox. (E.g. see Testimony of the Ancients) The site itself does not have a WP article. I think that these are link spam and hence I usually remove them. What do you think? Spearhead 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Not sure myself, seems fishy, but the best option would be to see if it meets WP:WEB requirements. --MilkMiruku 21:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove reviews from non-notable sources with impunity. A link to an allmusic review in the infobox and a couple of further reviews or features from noted publications (minimum criteria - own WP article) if available in the external links is enough. I'm not personally up on Metal Observer, this is not a judgement on the quality of their output... Deizio 15:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Metal observer isnt bad, but not brilliant. They tend to write heavily biased on their tastes, leaving all their reviews completely lacking in neautrility. However, its a known site, and has a loyal base of readers. Id say it easily meets notablity, though i do see the person adding it as probally spamming. An easy way would be to check the users contribution history to make sure they are trying to be helpfull and not just advertising. Ley Shade 15:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think such links belong in the infobox. However, I see no reason why they couldn't go in an "External Links" section. Metal Observer has a rather extensive list of reviews, many of which concern relatively underground bands and albums which are otherwise difficult to research due to the lack of information and mainstream coverage. I use it myself occasionally. Rishodi 07:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
there are 1000s of these sites.... do we want to list them all.... or jsut pick some at random? Spearhead 08:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Discretion is a must. Rather than picking album reviews at random, I would opt to select a small number of the best written ones for inclusion in an external links section. Rishodi 09:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
In much the same spirit as our last poll then, we should probally hold another. Thus gathering the most prominent databases we have from across articles, or without, and holding a poll. Gathering as many databases as we can would be good, so people can vote for the Three/Four/Five most prominent ones to include, and which to not. Of course, this would mean that the decision is carried to all metal related albums, bands, musicians, and misc articles. However, this should at least allow for an extensive cleanup, and would also allow for us to have a database of websites from the ones not included for the project members to scour when looking for sources for creating new articles for bands, albums and musicians. Ley Shade 21:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

National Day of Slayer: 6/6/06

ATTENTION EVERYONE: June 6, 2006 (6/6/06) is National Day of Slayer. Please plan your schedules accordingly.

Website: http://www.nationaldayofslayer.org/

--Eastlaw 22:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ill pass, i fail to like Slayer of any of their music, and has such have no respect of them whatsoever. Ley Shade 15:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Haha great stuff! --PopUpPirate 23:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal/Poll

The poll has closed, the results are as follows:

Keep, to be listed on Template:Heavymetal;

  • Black metal
  • Doom metal
  • Death metal
  • Folk metal
  • Glam metal
  • Gothic metal
  • Grindcore
  • Industrial metal
  • Neo-classical metal
  • Power metal
  • Progressive metal
  • Symphonic metal
  • Thrash metal

Further debate required, and not to be added at this time;

  • Classic metal

Everything else has been closed as delete.

As such, the template will be edited to reflect this consensus. Items not in the keep list can be removed from the template if re-added, with the rationale:

"Removing non-core subgenre, per results of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal/Poll]]. Please raise questions and suggestions at the [[Template talk:Heavymetal|template talk page]] and the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal|WikiProject Metal talk page]]."

Obviously, not everyone backed every winner - we have all gained and lost genres we like in this process, which is a design feature of building consensus. Any WP:HMM member or metal contributor is welcome to put any sub-genre up for debate on this talk page, provided they have a good-faith reason to do so. A template featuring the deleted sub-genres could also be created, perhaps Template:Heavy metal sub-genres.

I would also invite contributors to add their support by endorsing the findings of the poll. Strong endorsement will aid effective enforcement, and allow us to make this process mean something. Deizio 02:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

A lot of them are obvious keeps as expected (death metal, doom metal, etc) others obvious deletes. Yet some genres might need some more discussion whether to include them or not. In particilar Classic metal as you said, Glam metal, Neo-classical metal, Speed metal, Symphonic Metal - seeing some mixed reactions with some good arguments. The problem probably lies in that these genres aren't well defined enough and the articles aren't helpful at all.Spearhead 17:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, but as I mentioned there has to be some give and take in all this. At the very least, the template has been nicely trimmed, and that's a hell of an improvement from a few weeks ago when it looked like the members of this project couldn't agree on what colour to wear to a funeral. I voted to delete several of the genres that made it and therefore have personal reservations about a couple of inclusions, but that's life. The more prolific members of the project will continue to do the bulk of the editing and housekeeping, and we now have a workable process by which we can propose genres to be in- or excluded from the template. If we could address some of the other problems we have (Black metal, Troll, faggoth and the sub-sub genres, Islamic metal etc.) with anything like the same kind of authority we would really be getting somewhere. Deizio 21:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Project members who endorse the findings of Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal/Poll

  • Endorse, and thanks to all who got involved. Deizio 02:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Endorse. No point in having the poll and then shunning it. Ley Shade 08:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Endorse IronChris | (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Endorse The poll seems fair and everyone had ample chance to respond. Maestlin 19:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments

  • Comment re my suggestion above; why completely remove crossover genre articles from the navigational footer template instead of listing them on a new line (like {{popmusic}} does for regional styles) or putting them further down in an "Other topics" (or similar) section (like {{countrymusic}})? some of which are fairly well known terms, and as the footer is an integral part of how users browse between articles and explore topics on wikipedia i'd say there's a good argument for including them in some form. --MilkMiruku 00:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Because it was discussed, proposed, voted on and project members approved it. I've mooted a separate template for non-core genres, and there's probably editors at pop and country music looking at us thinking "yeah, strip it down...". In the first draft of the poll we were voting to differentiate three classifications of sub-genres, but the 2nd level element of the vote was removed, which made the choices simpler but means we don't have a consensus on what the next level of genres would be, and what wouldn't belong on a template at all. Past experience shows that without a strong position agreed by the majority, our old friends Pirate metal, troll metal, circus metal etc. will be put on the template (usually by a string of numbers rather than a named editor) and it's harder to justify deleting them, and harder to avoid revert wars. By all means make a formal suggestion and ask people to vote on it, we've proved that democracy works around here and if you want to talk it over I'll help you set it up... I've moved this comment from that "endorse" section, hope that's OK with you. Deizio 01:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
wikipedia is not a democracy though. your argument for removing all crossover genres from the footer template due to the fact that it would lead to the inclusion of non-notable genres is flawed - non-notability ultimatly rests on whether an article would survive an AfD or not. i'm not sure about your point re the pop and country templates; those haven't been stripped down, instead using different methods to include regional and related styles within the templates. --MilkMiruku 15:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The need for this arose from the fact that editors would remove subgenres they didnt like from the template, and insist on others being left on, hence something had to be done. Of course WP is not a democracy, but if democratic principles can be used to avoid edit warring and build consensus then that's a good thing. I never said the other templates had been stripped down (although the pop one is pretty concise, like the metal template is now and wasn't before), I said I'm sure other editors who concentrate on different spheres of music would also be happy with stripped down main templates. I also haven't said anything about "notability" (a pretty subjective word on WP these days) being grounds for inclusion / exclusion on this template. It is empirically obvious to me that some sub-genres and classifications are better defined and more popular than others, ranging from very widely known and recognized ones all the way down to negologistic terms that have been applied to one or two bands in obscure places, and they can't all go on the template. You clearly have your own ideas about all this, but I'm not sure where you're going with them.
If you think you have something that everyone will agree with and applaud then for Wiki's sake be bold and do something. If you're a bit miffed that something you like has been deleted from the template as non-core, maybe that's something you need to deal with. The template currently contains the core genres from the poll, a few articles to important regional scenes and some related topics. Let's not forget there is also a clickable link to the heavy metal article, hence readers are pretty close to all the heavy metal info that exists on Wikipedia. Templates like this complement main articles, lists and the search bar, they need not replace them. Deizio talk 15:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The true scope of heavy metal is narrowed if certain genres are voted to be removed from the template, like in the case of Nu metal. And, c'mon, it's a template. It's supposed to aid in navigation between a large number of topics. It works very well in the case of Template:alternativerock in listing genres fans of the style might not be aware of. We're here to learn, after all. WesleyDodds 18:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to point out, Pirate Metal, Troll Metal, Cyber Metal, War Metal, Faggoth, Unblack Metal, and all the rest DIDNT survive AFD. Ley Shade 21:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Classic metal

  • This was the only debate that really needed more attention. Please vote to keep or delete, with reference to whether or not this is a core metal genre. As the article itself is not up for deletion from WP, the "rename" option is not available as it would be in a regular AfD debate. Any proposals for "Traditional metal" to be included on the template should be made separately. Deizio 02:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Question about format

Can someone tell me what is the conventional way for writing song and album titles? Should they be in italics, quotation marks, etc.? Is there a page about this (I couldn't find one)? If not maybe we should have a section about it on the main page (and if there is a page we could add a link on the main page). Thanks. IronChris | (talk) 23:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Album titles are in italics, songs are in quotation marks. WesleyDodds 01:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree that the project could use some standard type of format for album & band pages - like having a standard metal album/band template, a band biography outline, scene linking, picture guidelines, ect. Just some kind of general "how to" for our metal pages. The first paragraph of our project page says: "The aim of this project is to standardize and improve articles related to Heavy metal music and its sub-genres" Well, should we be working twords a "standard heavy metal" layout for articles? I think this would help us(and moreso the new editors) tackle the serious ammount of metal album and band pages that need attention. Just a thought... Skeletor2112 06:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Totally agree, that's what most WikiProjects do. The WikiProject Music seems to have these sorts of guidelines, but they're kind of scattered all over the place in various descendant WikiProjects. We should summarise them to make an easier reference for all members of our WikiProject. IronChris | (talk) 07:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Collaboration of the month

How about setting up something alike Wikipedia:Wikiproject Horror/Collaboration of the month. Spearhead 18:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, and it wouldn't be too difficult to do. IronChris | (talk) 18:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll start it here: Wikipedia:Wikiproject Metal/Collaboration of the month Spearhead 20:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I did a copy, paste and edit of the horror thing - should be pretty much working, but I'm no wiki template guru, so maybe some one should look at it Spearhead 20:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mind Over Four (the band)

Has anyone here heard of these guys? If so, do you dig them as much as I do? I wrote an artcle about Mind Over Four and I would appreciate your additions/edits/feedback. --Eastlaw 05:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Nu-metal = Alternative rock

Who put that Nu-metal needed to be merged with alternative rock. They are most certainly not the same thing. DGX 22:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the user's page and he seems to have an obvious bias towards the genres. I didn't remove the listing since I'm not officially a part of the project (even though I work on a lot of the pages) but I suggest that it should be. I'm working on an expansion of the Alternative rock article, and there's no way the nu metal and alternative metal pages would be merged with it, since not only are they tangentially related, but like Heavy metal music and Punk rock alternative rock is an overarching term with lots of subgenres. WesleyDodds 01:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Spam links

Have you noticed all the metal articles being continually spammed with a link to metallian.com? Sometimes they link to a metallian page that’s actually about the band, but usually it’s just metallian.com. I have alerted an admin about this. David Hain 04:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The metallian article's been put up for deletion. David Hain 10:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hard Rock

Hi, could I have some suggestions and aid for my hard rock wikiproject. DavidJJJ 17:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikiproject Metal/Collaboration of the month

I would just like to remind everybody that there has been an endeavour to start a Metal Collaboration of the Month, and for the moment very few people have voted to nominate an article. If anyone is interested, please take a look at the Nominees and cast your vote. Thanks. IronChris | (talk) 20:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Walri edits to heavy metal music

I'm dubious concerning User:Walri's recent edits to Heavy metal music, bu i know nothing of the topic, can somebody please have a look? Circeus 00:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

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