Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany/Conventions
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[edit] Introduction
Before beginning a major revision of the Germany part of Wikipedia, we need a style guide. I have not been able to find any other summary in one place of naming rules for Germany. What I have offered here is a summary of modern practice by English speaking journalists and authors. Tacitus 15:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've expanded the page, and hope I am not going too fast, but the points made below will surely be considered as we revise. The suggestion is that we clearly differentiate between historic and contemporary usages. Tacitus 12:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Placenames
A couple of points. Firstly, "Brunswick" is used at least as often in English as "Hanover" with one "n", and usually in the same contexts - largely historical ones. I would say that most usually, references to the modern cities are "Braunschweig" or "Hannover," but that references to the historical Guelf rulers are almost always "Brunswick" and "Hanover." If "Hanover" is a common english form, it seems to me that "Brunswick" pretty clearly is as well. There are other cities which, in some contexts, at least, are referred to by anglicized names. I've never heard of the Council of Konstanz, for instance, but I don't think there's any clear dominant usage between Konstanz and Constance overall. Similarly, Aachen is, in certain historical contexts, still referred to as "Aix-la-Chapelle," notably in reference to the treaty signed there in 1748, and to the Congress of the Powers held there in 1818. Other formerly used Francizations/Anglicizations like "Mayence," "Ratisbon," "Treves," "Cassel," and so forth seem clearly obsolete. I can't think of any other cities that are normally anglicized, though. I will add that "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" appears to me to be more common than the translated name. john k 00:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll add that I'd never heard of the "Ore Mountains" before reading this proposal. I've always just heard them called the Erzgebirge. john k 04:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- As an English-speaker living in Germany, my perceptions are perhaps somewhat biased, but I would always spell "Hanover" with one "n" when writing in English (and do in my capacity as a professional translator), while "Brunswick" sounds to me as obsolete as "Mayence" or "Aix-la-Chapelle" (except as the name of a brand of bowling ball). I'd never heard of the Erzgebirge called the "Ore Mountains" either; it's probably due to Wikipedia's to maintain an NPOV with respect to the German vs. the Czech name. —Angr 14:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- "The Duke of Braunschweig was mortally wounded at the Battle of Auerstadt"? "Ernst August became the last Duke of Braunschweig in 1913"? "The Duchy of Braunschweig was a state in the German Empire"? I've never heard any of these things said in English. I've also never heard reference to the Treaty of Aachen of 1748 or the Congress of Aachen of 1818. Mayence is, indeed, no longer used, but Aix-la-Chapelle and Brunswick are both used in certain contexts. Brunswick is still the standard English name of the former state, and in historical discussions one tends to see the city called that as well, if only to avoid confusion. Aix-la-Chapelle is only used in reference to certain events, rather than in references to the city itself, but it is still standard in those particular usages - the 1668 and 1748 treaties, and the 1818 congress in particular. And we don't have to use some made up equivalent simply because two alternate names are used, if one is used in English and the other is not. Krušné hory is not a term that's ever found in English, so I don't see why its existence means that we can't use the German "Erzgebirge". john k 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about historical usage, I'm talking about modern usage. I wouldn't say "All France is divided into three parts" either. —Angr 15:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Different issue. That's an issue of a new name, this is an issue of whether we translate a name. And "Brunswick" is still used for the state much more recently than "Gaul" - the state of Brunswick existed until 60 years ago. john k 23:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about historical usage, I'm talking about modern usage. I wouldn't say "All France is divided into three parts" either. —Angr 15:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- I first heard of "Ore Mountains" only four or five years ago too. Even though it does appears a neologism, it may help keep the peace.Tacitus 12:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- "The Duke of Braunschweig was mortally wounded at the Battle of Auerstadt"? "Ernst August became the last Duke of Braunschweig in 1913"? "The Duchy of Braunschweig was a state in the German Empire"? I've never heard any of these things said in English. I've also never heard reference to the Treaty of Aachen of 1748 or the Congress of Aachen of 1818. Mayence is, indeed, no longer used, but Aix-la-Chapelle and Brunswick are both used in certain contexts. Brunswick is still the standard English name of the former state, and in historical discussions one tends to see the city called that as well, if only to avoid confusion. Aix-la-Chapelle is only used in reference to certain events, rather than in references to the city itself, but it is still standard in those particular usages - the 1668 and 1748 treaties, and the 1818 congress in particular. And we don't have to use some made up equivalent simply because two alternate names are used, if one is used in English and the other is not. Krušné hory is not a term that's ever found in English, so I don't see why its existence means that we can't use the German "Erzgebirge". john k 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Upper Palatinate for the contemporary administrative region of Oberpfalz does seem to be a case of translation overkill. Would it not be more consistent with Wikipedia practice elsewhere to head the relevant history articles "Upper Palatinate" but just use the German for the grey bureaucrats of today? In the 21st century, the two Palatinates have got nothing to do with one another.Tacitus 12:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- You're probably right. When it comes to the names for current places, I always want to follow my instinct as an English speaker in Germany. I can't imagine saying to someone "I'm going on vacation to the Upper Palatinate"; I'd always say "I'm going on vacation to the Oberpfalz". I don't know how verifiable that is though. —Angr 12:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Universities
A contributor to the Germany Project page argued for native German names for universities. That does not seem to represent mainstream opinion. In general, Italian, Chinese and other Wikipedians do not seem to force foreign-language university titles on readers. I've suggested here how the headwords for universities can be presented in a way acceptable to the Wikipedia community internationally. As far as I can see, the majority of Wikipedia university entries employ simple descriptive headwords of the form "University of [[Placename]]", which is to say, regardless of what it calls itself, it is "the university" that is situated at that place. Further adornment needs only be prefixed if a town has multiple universities. The "of" form has the advantage of allowing for such a prefix, e.g. Technical University of Wagga-Wagga. In text, Wikipedia articles also naturally take this form, "In 1951, he switched to the University of Heidelberg where he majored in ..." (Kohl biography). Tacitus 22:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- It would make life a lot easier. Agathoclea 23:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
