Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Digimon Systems Update/Article reorganization

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See the Project page for the to do list and a summary of the efforts being discussed here.


Contents

[edit] Okay, let's get started

The stuff on the To-Do-list is mainly from Ned Scott's suggestions over on the talk page for the Digimon System Update main project page.

The massive -mon list comes from List of Digimon. I basically copied that list over, and went through it to get rid of any items on the list which were merely redirects. So that list is a list of all our -mon articles, not a list of all digimon.

The last section is stuff from List of Digimon which don't have articles. Not too sure what to do about them since i don't know what most of them are.

The whole idea of the list is that digimon can be moved from the "currently existing -mon article" list to the "organization of future article" lists. So a digimon will be crossed out on the first list when it is added to one (or more) of the latter lists. This way, we can keep track of what goes where, and make sure we don't miss anything.

I've already put a few obvious categories there (D-Accel, Armor...although they are open to discussion, they're just the ones i could think of), we really need to decide what to do with the rest of the digimon.

there is going to be tons of miscellaneous digimon that don't fall into any obviouse category. How are we going to put them into articles? By season (so like "miscellaneous from Digimon Adventure", "miscellaneous digimon from Tamers"...etc?) or by the actual type of digimon? I guess all the digimon that are card-game only can be put into either levels or families. --Yaksha 11:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably our best bet for origination would be by level. For some levels this would mean having more than one list article, simply because of the large number of Digimon each level includes. Something like Mega Digimon (A to F) or List of Mega Digimon (A to F). This would pretty much cover all Digimon and wouldn't have major issues with over-lapping lists. Although, in the case of over-lapping lists we can simply place "For this Digimon see link to other list".
As far as what to do with List of Digimon, we can probably replace the article itself with a category. Even if the 'mon don't have individual articles anymore, we can still categorize redirected articles, so they will show up in a category. -- Ned Scott 07:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
List of Digimon as an article should probably go. It seems to be an indiscriminate collection of information rather than an actual encyclopedic article.--Saintmagician 08:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, lists are generally treated differently than articles when they are for navigation. See WP:LIST#Purpose of lists. -- Ned Scott 08:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DNA digimon

already ran into a problem. A DNA digimon, like Paildramon, would go into Veemon or Wormmon's article?

Or should the information be repeated on both?

Or should we consider the DNA digimon a new character (since it's a combination of two seperate characters), and have a seperate article for Paildramon/Imperialdramon/Fightermode/Paladinmode? --Yaksha 12:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably just put the info in both articles. Aside from summaries of the plot, there really isn't a lot to say about the DNA Digimon. -- Ned Scott 07:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I highly agree that the info is in both articles. It just makes more sense.--Digimonlover8 17:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diving into the work

I've got some days off coming up after tomorrow (technically today), and I'll be able to be a bit more active here. I also want to try to contact some editors that were previously active in the project but haven't replied to the ideas yet, so we can get more input and such on how to tackle the situation. I'm very much looking forward to this, and I think doing this will make the information we present on Digimon more focused, better written, and over-all be more helpful and encyclopedic. -- Ned Scott 07:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Right, could someone detail exactly what needs to be done at the moment? I want to help but this restructing of articles is rather intimidating. Indiawilliams 01:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
if you look at the project page linked to this discussion page, you'll notice i've made a "Currently existing –mon articles" list (which should include every -mon article we have). As well as "Organization of future articles" lists. some of the items on the "Currently existing –mon articles" are crossed out, meaning that the digimon has already been put onto a list in the "Organization of future articles" section.
What needs to be done is for people to look at every existing mon article (as in click on every non-crossed out link in the list of "Currently existing –mon articles"), and decide what to do with it. So does the digimon deserve its own article? Is it an armor digimon who should be put together on an article with other armor digimon? is it just a alternate form of a main chosen digimon (i.e. Chibomon with Veemon, since Chibomon is the same character as Veemon)? and so on. Or is it just a random digimon who appears in an episode to fill up space, and should be put into a "Mega digimon A-H" article?
It does get a bity messy - like the way Agumon will need a page for the Agumon who is a charcter in adventure/02, and the Agumon who is a character in Savers
Once it's decided, the digimon should be crossed off the "Currently existing –mon articles" list, and placed someone on the "Organization of future articles" section.
i've sorted out most of the digimon i'm familiar with into groups under the "Organization of future articles" section. But it'd be good if someone could check it to make sure there're no mistakes, and see if they agree with all the digimon i've listed as "Important Digimon" (i.e. they will have an article to themselves.) --Yaksha 02:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Digitamamon is a character that is recurring in the first two seasons, but overall doesn't play much of a roll in the plot. Where exactly should it be put? Important digimon or champion-level digimon? Clevomon 06:49 EST, 7 October 2006
I'd say give him a page of his own. But i'm not so sure on it. He is a character in the anime, or at least in Adventure 02 (as oppossed to just a "pop up and get killed/freed/beaten in one episode" digimon), but a rather minor character. We can just list him as having a page of his own, and then see how everything else sorts out. i'd suspect for most of the champion digimon who end up on the champion-digimon combined pages, there'd be nothing to say about them except their digivolution line and where they turn up. So Digitamamon may be a bit out of place on it, since there is a little more we can say about him as a character. --`/aksha 11:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, another idea is to just create List of Digimon Adventure minor characters and List of Digimon Adventure 02 minor characters, with "see also" in both so each can mention the roll they played in each series. -- Ned Scott 21:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, that's a good idea! In that case, a few of the ones I recently added to Important Digimon will have to be moved. I'll get right on it! But why not lists for the characters like that in Tamers, Frontier, and Savers? Maybe we should just have one big list for all minor characters... Clevomon 19:34 EST, 8 Oct 2006
So digimon who are "minor characters" in two seasons will be on the minor character article for both seasons? That sounds okay. So chosen digimon aside, we're going to end up with three clear 'tiers'. Important digimon who get their own page; then minor characters who get put into "minor character" articles (or articles like the armor digimon articles); and lastly digimon who just exist (like the D-Accel digimon, or the ones who end up in "mega A-H" style articles). --`/aksha 00:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Pretty much, but also that each Digimon might be in one or more basic product categories, such as anime & manga, card & video games, etc. So there will be, say, more than one place for Agumon (which we know since he's been at least two different major characters) in that he'll have his anime info in one place, then things that don't apply to the anime but apply to a video game will then go to one of those other lists / articles. Although, I think we should keep the "game only" info (apart from ones that play a major role in the plot of some video games) pretty minimal. This is likely where we'll dumb things like the card numbers and such as well. -- Ned Scott 03:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Which is basically to avoid confusion when listing card and anime info side by side. Personally I'd be fine with not including card-game-only 'mon and info at all, but I'm not sure how others will feel about that. -- Ned Scott 03:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind leaving out card game information. Detailed information about trading card games isn't something wikipedia usually includes anyway (we don't go into nearly that much detail for say, pokemon cards or yugioh cards), and it's a real pain collecting. The only bit of card game information i'd say maybe include would be the digimon family information.

Some digimon will defintely end up in more than one article. It's inevitable if we're trying to get articles that focus on digimon as characters, rather than digimon as species. "Although, I think we should keep the "game only" info pretty minimal." I'm thinking get rid of game only info completely from the articles about anime/manga digimon (so like the champion A-H style articles) Information about digimon in games (unless they're a major character in it) can just go onto the game article (sort of like this). --`/aksha 07:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

So, quick review, how exactly will this work again? Clevomon 19:30 EST, 9 Oct 2006 (UTC)
You mean about my comment with the games? See the article on DW3, and notice how there's a section for DW3 exclusive digimon. That's what i meant. So the articles on digimon video games will have a section about the digimon who appear in the video game. The exception would be digimon who play a large role in a video game, in which case they're treated as a character and given a seperate page (e.g. Millenniummon) --`/aksha 03:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Wait, the minor characters for Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure 02 with only a few exceptions tend to repeat. Does anyone else think that those two lists should be combined? Clevomon 21:01 EST, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Do they overlap a lot? The minor characters list we have right now for them, the only digimon who overlaps is Digitamamon. Let's just list them seperately, and if it turns out the two lists do repeat a lot, we can combine the lists into one "Digimon Adventure/02 minor characters" article. --`/aksha 03:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Good point. Hey, there isn't anything on the Scubamon right now, but they're pretty notable. I wonder if info on them should be merged with Divermon? Clevomon 17:07 EST, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The scubamon are just divermon in disguise right? We could put in an entry on "Scubamon" in either the 02 minor characters page, or a Miscellanous digimon page, just saying where they appeared, and how they turned out to be Divermon. I'll add it to the list of digimon who currently don't have articles, so we don't forget. --Saintmagician 00:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confused...about Magnamon

Just a little confused about Magnamon's level. Magnamon appears as Veemon's armor form in Adventure, as a golden armor digimon. But he also appears as a main character in Digimon X-Evolution. The Digimon X-Evolution features the 13 royal knights. In the context of the story, the 13 royal knights are meant to be 13 most powerful digimon who keep order in the digital world.

The thing is, all the Royal Knights are mega digimon. Or at least all 9 of the 13 who appeared in X-Evolution. Magnamon alone is Armor. Even Golden Armor is supposed to be a level below Ultimate.

In the actual X-Evolution movie, Magnamon plays quite a big role, and he seems to be on par with all the other Royal Knights (who are all mega digimon, or mega2 digimon like Omnimon). (there's a summary of the movie here)

So....i just found it really really strange. That not only is magnamon the only royal knight who isn't mega, but that the role he plays in X-Evolution suggests Magnamon is as strong as the other royal knights

So i've been wondering whether there's been a mistake. I tried to google for it, but nothing really useful. Most of it came from our article here in wikipedia anyway. The shiningevolution encyclopedia also has Magnamon as armor, but Magnamon X as Adult (champion), which is even wierder.

I really think we need to do a bit of fact-checking here. I don't suppose anyone has actually seen, or has a copy of, X-Evolution (or Digimon Chronical, the manga series that X-Evolution is based on.) --`/aksha 04:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I started to watch the fansub of it, but I haven't finished watching it yet. Maybe I'll watch it tonight. -- Ned Scott 04:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I do believe he's as strong as a mega because of his gold-digizoid armor which is designed for offence (red-digizoid is for defence, while blue-digizoid is for speed).Nightmare SE 11:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I've seen the movie. Magnamon exists at the eponymous level of Armor, which is equivelant with Adult/Champion sometimes in the card game. But he's special in that he's stronger than most armors, and his strength level varies between his various portrayals. Generally, though, he's a case like Lucemon; of a lower level, but greater in power because he's special.

[edit] GoldVeedramon and the Hyper Bio Digimon

The exact status of the Hyper Bio Digimon (BioThunderbirdmon, BioStegomon, and BioCoatlmon)are unknown, so for the time being they should not be merged with their armor digimon forms, but rather their human forms (Kouki, Ivan, and Nanami, respectively) Also GoldVeedramon is a digimon who uses the Digi-Egg of Fate, other than Terriermon Thegreyanomaly 02:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that's just popular speculation about GoldVeedramon. -- Ned Scott 02:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Armor digivolution only existes in Digimon Adventure (+ TCG), so just because these bio digimon share names with 'armor digimon', saying they are armor would be speculation anyway. If the bio digimon comes from humans, then having them included in the human article seems sensible. Otherwise, group them together into one Hyper Bio Digimon article.
With GoldVeedramon, i think i was the one who removed it from the Digimental article, since the GoldVeedramon article says he's a champion, not an armor. But it seems i was wrong --> http://shiningevo.ultimatedigimon.com/encyclopedia/digimon/gold_vdramon.html. GoldVeedramon exists only in the card game, so if the cards say so, then he's the fate armor of Veemon. --`/aksha 02:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Ops, wrong again. It seems like according to the article, he appears in wonderswan games as a champion. But the statement isn't sourced, where as the shingingevolution encyclopedia has him down as Armor. So i'm just going to remove the statement. --`/aksha 02:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Armor and Adult/Champion are equivalent in the Japanese Digimon card game (and in all the other Japanese sources I can think of.) His level field shows Adult, but Armor is displayed elsewhere on the card. Basically, Gold V-Dramon that evolve through the use of a Digimental are Armor, while Gold V-Dramon that evolve normally are Adult. The only difference between Armor and Adult is the type of evolution used to attain that form, as near as I've ever been able to tell. Shining Celebi 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
But as for the hyper bio's. They should be kept as is until enough knowledge is available to make articles on Kouki, Nanami, and Ivan
Thegreyanomaly 03:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, they shouldn't be made at all until there is enough verifiable content. -- Ned Scott 03:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There is knowledge on the three hyper bio digimon, but there is not knowledge on their Human selves -- Thegreyanomaly 05:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Meanwhile, I'm going to change the redirecting so the three bio digimon redirect to the digimon savers concept article, since that's where they are actually described. --`/aksha 06:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gururumon

Currently he doesn't have his own article, instead his article redirects to Garurumon, shouldn't he be apart of the Misc article? Nightmare SE 14:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of Gururumon before. If it is actualy a seperate digimon from Garurumon, then yes. But, most digimon redirects exist because they're either typos, or a minor variation of a digimon (so a dark version, a X-antibody versio, a virus version...etc.) If Garurumon doesn't fall into either of these two categories, then yeah, add it in. --`/aksha 03:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Gururumon is a recoloured Garurumon similiar to Digimon like Saberdramon, Solarmon, IceDevimon, SandYanmamon, Hyogamon, SnowGoburimon/SnowGoblimon, etc. He has appeared in the card game and various Digimon video games, and has been around for a very long time, and he is not an evil version of Garurumon, he's not even a virus attribute.
Also I discovered another Digimon without an article, Rockmon (known as Gouremon undubbed), a champion level digimon who looks like a wire-frame version of Frigimon and has only appeared in three video games.Nightmare SE 09:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I see. I don't think a centralized decision was ever made about exactly which digimon to give articles and which ones not to. The main problem with giving digimon like that articles is that there's really not much to say about them. Just an info box, a picture, a list of attacks and a couple of sentences in the intro. Which means a permanently stubbed article.
But if we merge many digimon into miscellanous digimon lists, then these giving digimon (who currently don't have articles of their own) individual entries shouldn't cause any problems.
I'll go restore the 'list of digimon who currently don't have articles'. I got rid of it in my last edit because i thought it was pointless trying to deal with digimon who don't even have articles when we're trying to reorganize existing articles.
But it's probably a good idea to keep track of such a list. I've added Rockmon and Gururumon onto it. If there're any other unique digimon who you are sure does exist, then feel free to add them on. --`/aksha 01:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this is a big job..

Sorry I haven't been more involved with helping to keep this moving. I think we pretty much know, or at least have the basic idea, of where to put info. I think our next step is to take some example articles and show how a merged / listed entry will look, or whatever. We probably need examples for human characters with partner Digimon, examples for a list of Digimon, etc. I'll see what I can come up with, and I suggest that everyone feel free to experiment around with different formats and such in their sandboxes. Although, I'm not sure about what to do with some of the elements of the "list of Digimon" type articles. Are we going to bother with card numbers and attack names for them? There's so much cruft and weird trivia to pick though, for a lot of these it would almost seem easier to start from scratch.. -- Ned Scott 03:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

i've had some thoughts on how to do article layout, but i haven't really had time to try making any sample articles to show what i mean. And i doubt i will any time in the next few weeks, i'm about to hit exam week. I guess i'll just dump down all the ideas i had here, and hopefully you or someone else can make sense of it =P. --`/aksha 04:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] some ideas for the new articles

[edit] General TCG things

  • Card numbers - i think not. They're just a data dump, it's meaningless, difficult to verify, and doesn't tell the reader anything about the digimon.
  • Digivolutions - avoid (unless the digimon is TCG-only...although i don't think there're any TCG only digimon). Just take a look at Agumon's TCG digivolutions (here) to get an idea of how much of a mess it will be. The large number of digivolution possibilities enhances the strategy aspect of a card game, but otherwise makes little sense - it's just a data dump.
  • Trivia - avoid TCG trivia. Every card in the TCG has a digimon description - in other words, an "intersting (but useless) fact". It's just pure trivia.
  • Attacks - avoid TCG attacks (unless for TCG only digimon). And we need to be more strict on the "we will delete attacks unless you tell us where they are from". Because most of the attacks on the digimon now are unsourced, and i'm highly suspicious of where they come from. And almost impossible for us to verify each one.

things like "attribute" and "type" and "family" may be worth keeping, since they do describe the digimon.

As you can see, i don't think very highly of TCG information. The Digimon have an encyclopedia entry because they appear in anime/games/manga...etc, not because there's a trading card on them.

I couldn't agree more. The less TCG info the better. -- Ned Scott 06:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article layout for individual digimon

  • Chosen digimon - i don't think sharing an article with the human is a good idea. Mostly because i think the articles will become too long - just imagine the length of Tai + Agumon together in one article. The chosen digimon are sort of, as much of a main character as the chosen humans. Although with the ones who play a relatively minor role (like Guardromon and Kazu), it may work. IMO articles should be named after the human.
    • Frontier digidestined = one page. Since the digimon are not seperate characters.
  • Important digimon characters - pretty much the same as they are now. But the articles need to be cleaned up, and slightly rewritten to focus on the digimon as a character.

[edit] articles of lists of digimon

This includes all the articles that'll include many digimon.

I'm thinking each digimon get given one subheading (so the TOC would list all the digimon on the article).

Something that looks very roughly like this:

Image:Digimon_list_article_layout.jpg

Right now, it looks like we'll have about 20 digimon per article.

For the info box, i'm thinking something along the lines of:

  • picture
  • Attribute
  • Type
  • TCG family
  • Appearance (the main place. So if a digimon appears in tons of places, then just put "various")
  • Digivolves to
  • Digivolves from
  • see also

The digivolves to/from boxes should only be used for the cannon digivolutions of the digimon in the media specified under "appearance"

Things like armor digivolution won't be needed, since all armor digimon are grouped together. DNA digivolution also won't be needed - it only happens in the card game and to digimon who're main characters of Adventure.

An extra line for "level" will be needed in only some lists.

the "see also" line is explained in the next bit

[edit] Additional problems

The biggest problem is disambiguation. Simple things like Agumon adventure and Agumon savers, a link can be added in the "see also" line. So agumon adventure will have a link to agument savers and vice versa.

Similarly, rapidmon armor would have a link to rapidmon ultimate.

But, the agumon article currently documents agumon's appearance in things like Frontier, Next, D-Cyber...etc. Where is all that going to go? On Agumon adventure's article or on agumon saver's article? Or should we have another entry for agumon (species) in one of the miscellenous article lists? --`/aksha 04:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)'

Saw it Next Manga that agumon in savers got that way because he was illgeal type that why not like the normal agumonOmagaalpha 18:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed templates

Have been working on article layout, starting with how the articles for the Chosen Digimon should look like.

This is Veemon - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Saintmagician/Veemon

I was worried the article may end up too long - since it's like...11 articles merged into one. But it turned out a lot of the actual content was repeated again and again, so the article isn't all that long.

The only problem is, i can't figure out where to include the type/attribute/TCG-family information. Trying to include these three random facts into the prose was too hard, the only place they would fit in would be in an info box, so here's a second version of the layout with infoboxes for each of Veemon's forms - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Saintmagician/Veemon2

I find all the infoboxes clutters up the page a bit too much (and makes it longer than it needs to be), but the other alternative is to just not include those three bits of information.

Any thoughts? Feedback? --Saintmagician 08:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

here is a layout for groups of digimon on one page. This one is for the Digi-Egg of Courage --Saintmagician 04:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It looks really good, I like it. I'm not a big fan of infoboxes in the first place, so I'd lean towards only including the first one, or making a less "boxy" looking one for additional use. Maybe a simple table that is mostly just to format the placement of the type/family/etc info just below the picture, but in a cleaner, simpler, way. In any case, it's a step in the right direction. -- Ned Scott 23:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A concern about combining evolved forms into one page

I was thinking about this - and what should we do about characters that are evolved forms of Digimon (say Agumon) that have taken on a life outside of their own. By this, I mean Magnamon, Omnimon, WarGreymon, and the like. They've all been characters in their own right - Magnamon existed independantly of Veemon in X-Evolution, Omnimon is a separate character in V-Tamer, X-Evolution, D-Cyber, and Savers (by all appearances). The same goes for WarGreymon, who has appeared in several circumstances.

That said, Omnimon at least deserves a page to himself. O_o I mean, how does one consolidate something like him into a particular page? He can't be in both Agumon and Gabumon's pages. ---Razorsaw 17:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

They will have separate areas depending on who they are. For example, there will be an Agumon (Savers) as well as an Agumon or Agumon (Adventure). Then these areas will have see also links when appropriate. So when we talk about merging different Digimon we mean to merge the information that is about the same character. As for Omnimon, other than plot summary there really isn't much to say about him, and we could easily have a duplicate section in both articles. If it becomes an issue we can split the article later on, but I don't think it will be necessary. -- Ned Scott 04:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, our current articles focus on digimon species. So Omnimon talks about every omnimon that's ever appeared in digimon merchanidise.

We're hoping to switch to having articles which focus on digimon characters. So the magnamon from digimon season 02 is the same character as the veemon from digimon season 02.

For DNA combined digimon, i'm afraid we most likely will just end up putting them on both articles (so information for paildramon on both the veemon and wormmon article).

But otherwise, split the articles as Ned's outlined above. --`/aksha 11:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Add more to Willis (digimon the movie)

Oh just thought i'd mention i was scrolling through the pages and noticed there's very little detail on the main charactor of the digimon film. like it could be said that he created the virus rather than just saying his digimon was infected by one. also that he was obnormally smart as he was in elementary school and taking classes and coloarado state --Jonoridge 18:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Panimon and Lykamon

I've recently discovered that both Panimon and Lykamon were listed as Ultimates (Perfects) in their articles which I removed, neither of them have official levels (same goes for Hermmon who is listed as a Mega), from what I've heard they were supposed to appear in V-Tamer but they never did because of time restraints, if they had appeared they would have been created the same way Callismon was created which means they would have been more than likely Megas. Currently Lykamon is listed on the Ultimate Misc section (Panimon is not listed anywhere...) , I'm not sure if we should move him to the Mega Misc section or not, but he should be removed from the Ultimate section.Nightmare SE 14:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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