Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China/Archive/June 2006

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Contents

descendant Wikiprojects

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Chinese military history task force would be one, wouldn't it? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 22:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and uh a bit ambitious for the moment, but in defining scope, what about overseas Chinese communities (in this case, Singapore...), or incidents which dealt with the Chinese people (Sook Ching), ie. Chinese immigration act. Although I suppose that might fall under a future descendant project. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 22:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it? Chinese milhist task force was started earlier... :-/ And I'm scared of stepping on SGpedians' precious toes... -- Миборовский 22:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I would only put at most an "overseas Chinese" banner (and that would be possibly resistive in itself) - perhaps just demographics. I meant for articles like Tan Kah Kee....Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 22:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, maybe a "Chinese diaspora" or "Overseas Chinese" banner would be good. But it's a bit premature to think about that now. :S -- Миборовский 22:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong

Somebody (was that you Miborovsky? I just noticed your name above.) added the Falun Gong article to the project and I'm not sure that it's really appropriate. Because of the international tenor that FLG has taken on, it seems to be outside the scope of this Wikiproject. I wanted to get feedback from participants. CovenantD 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It was me. I think that as Falun Gong was started in China it has a lot to do with China. The CPC government's suppression, too. It doesn't mean that Falun Gong is exclusively a Chinese thing. Just "China-related". If most editors on FLG agree that it should not be there, take it down. -- Миборовский 20:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh no, I'm not bringing it up over there. :-) They've got enough to consider now as it is. I wasn't sure of who or why, which is how I decided to raise the issue here. I'm more than willing to leave the tag. CovenantD 21:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Related pages

Now that we have this wikiproject, what will be the role of Wikipedia:China-related topics notice board? I think the underultilized todo list there has been made redundant--Jiang 04:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Taking a look at regional noticeboards across Wikipedia, I noticed that a large number of them are in a state of disrepair and abandonment. My thinking is that a WikiProject requires less constant input to keep it going (whereas people have to check in to the noticeboard everyday). I think we can move the to-do over there to our worklist here, most of them seem to be completed, anyway. -- Миборовский 00:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've incorporated the ailing noticeboard's worklist to our worklist (on the project banner). I weeded out requests that have been fulfilled and disputes that have been resolved, and we still have a pretty substantial to-do list that would make a good start to this wikiproject if we can finish them all... whaddaya guy say? -- Миборовский 22:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've reorganized the list of parent and descendant WikiProjects; added a "writing articles" and "structure and organization section"; as well as removed any sections not directly related to WikiProject China (for example, the links to to the general AfD, CfD, etc discussions). Any comments/objections?--TBCTaLk?!? 16:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've been meaning to do that myself. Thanks for hunting down GAs and such, too. -- Миборовский 00:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Project Banner

Would anyone object to making our project banner something like the Korean one: {{korean}}? If not, what should we include on it? And also important is, what should the picture be? I'm not too satisfied with the current big-font-size "華", any good suggestions? How about Image:Chinesecoin.jpg? (Though the connection to China may not be visible to all...) -- Миборовский 00:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No objections. As for the picture I have no idea since we already have a dragon and Huangdi for the userboxes. --Yenchin 02:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is part of WikiProject China.
China To-do:
For some reason there is a huge gap between the picture and the main body of text... and the right side is quite empty, too. Suggestions? -- Миборовский 03:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
And the white background of the coin image will have to be removed, too. -- Миборовский 03:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to add that on my computer the '華' was cropped on the top and bottom and looks like '垂' instead, which to me, is very bad feng shui :o _dk 04:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Eek! That's not good indeed. Can someone more template-savvy make a better banner? -- Миборовский 04:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, I prefer something that is hand-written calligraphy. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 06:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh, maybe not. — Nrtm81 13:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

new member and looking for books

Hi guys, I just joined.

While I'm here, I'll mention this article which talks about some books I'd like to buy. Unfortunately they seem to be out-of-print and since they were published in China (I think) used copies are not available either. Does anyone know where I can find these four books:

  • "China Can Say No"
  • "A Portrait of the Sino-U.S. Contest"
  • "Whither Taiwan?"
  • "Containing China: Myth and Reality"

Thanks a lot, and I look forward to working with you. Ideogram 23:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no clue where you can buy them, though. -- Миборовский 00:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't read Chinese so I need them all in English. Ideogram 00:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is an English translation of China Can Say No, but Whither Taiwan? seems to be in English. -- Миборовский 01:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is the same book, but it looks interesting enough so I ordered it from Amazon anyway. Thanks! Ideogram 01:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Glad to be of help. -- Миборовский 02:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

cleanup and copyedit

If you could list pages requiring cleanup and copyediting, that would give me something I could work on. Ideogram 08:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Added a "Cleanup request" section to worklist, and 2 articles I've found that require cleanup and/or context. -- Миборовский 08:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

quick question

I was just wondering how much information does an article have to have before being no longer considered as a stub anymore? clragon 14:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd say, when it has 2 paragraphs. But that's just me. I don't think there is a set standard to what articles are stubs. -- Миборовский 00:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nanjing Incident

Can this stub qualify as an article now? LuChang 12:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Considering the size of the topic, I would say no. Ideogram 12:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan

Hi, the names for the Wiki projects of China are named as:

Would it be alright to name projects for Taiwan as Wikipedia:WikiProject Taiwan? (No political connotations, just neutral information concerning Taiwan) — Nrtm81 10:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Hong Kong is already well-neglected. We might as well keep this all in one place, for consistency's sake.--Jiang 13:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I see, so I'll link to WikiProject China from the Taiwan portal. — Nrtm81 14:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The HK noticeboard seems to be quite alive, fortunately. Can't say the same for the Chinese noticeboard. -- Миборовский 22:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

We need a portal

We should have a Portal:China. Ideogram 10:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

We already have a Portal:PRC and Portal:Taiwan (and Portal:HK). If we have a Portal:China, would the focus be
  1. Greater China
  2. Chinese history
  3. Both
  4. Something else?
-- Миборовский 22:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
All of the above and more. I thought of this issue because we have a Portal Taiwan that is concerned with Taiwanese history before the island became governed by the ROC, and we are going to have a Portal:ROC for political matters. Ideogram 10:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have created the portal. Now all we have to do is fill in the blanks. Ideogram 10:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Would that not be an unnecessary bloating of portals? Surely just renaming Portal:Taiwan to Portal:ROC would do it. But of course, there are crazy Taidu people... -- Миборовский 15:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe given the touchy political situation we need one set of portals covering History, Geography, and People (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong) and one set of portals covering Politics and Government (PRC, ROC). Ideogram 15:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that someone has created a Portal:ROC too, so now we have a place for ROC's history 1911-1949!!! Yaay!!! -- Миборовский 16:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
lol, so I'm a crazy Taidu person? :-) Portal:Taiwan isn't intended to push an independence theme. It's just about Taiwan. The ROC's situation is complex. The official stance of ROC is that it is the government of China, the 25 nations that have official relations with ROC don't recognize PRC. ROC's official territorial boundaries has never changed to reflect it's current nature.
So I created Portal:Republic of China to be a rival portal to the existing Portal:People's Republic of China. Incidentally, the Portal:China was violating NPOV by redirecting to the PRC portal. But now that we have a non-political Portal:China portal, hopefully there's less tension over "China" and "Taiwan" as specifically "PRC" and "ROC" since both claim the same thing (sole government of China including Taiwan) — Nrtm81 17:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you? I apologise then, I suppose it's not very good of me to start a politically-neutral WikiProject China and then call Taidu people crazy on its talkpage... :p Yes now that we have a generic Portal:China which can hopefully include the history, culture etc people will have less trouble setting up the PRC and ROC (and Taiwan and HK) portals. -- Миборовский 17:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
lol, don't worry about it. Someone else had accused me of Taidu when it wasn't my intension. It's just that the ROC situation is a difficult one. Even to suggest ROC is Taiwan is against ROC's official stance of being the government of China. So what can you do? If you want to know, I don't support Taidu, it doesn't make sense. Taiwanese are just Chinese, speak Chinese, have Chinese culture. I read that 80% ROC citizens favor unification with China but not under PRC, or at least not the way PRC is operating. They're waiting for the PRC to adopt the Sanmin Doctrine or at least similar to it.
By the way, to make ROC and PRC portals... should we make them focus more on the politics and their history? But then what about China portal? cities, culture, languages, etc... Seems to be a bit complicated.. Do we touch the PRC portal and move non-political items over to China portal to make it more neutral in relation to PRC and ROC political rivalry? — Nrtm81 19:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, the ROC succeeded the Qing dynasty, we cannot ignore the fact that the ROC has not been overthrown. The reality is PRC and ROC co-exist but control two different areas of China, although some say ROC is a government in exile (because it claims it's official capital at Nanjing) and lost legitimacy (similar to the Dalai Lama and Tibet when it was annexed by the PRC in 1950) — Nrtm81 19:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Concessions

We need an actual article detailing the concessions as well as the cultural issues (not merely political!) From reading Adeline Yen-Mah's books alone (haha, primary school reading material) one can tell there was quite a bit of cultural diffusion, as well as second-class treatment though one lived inside the concessions. We have an article on concessions in Tianjin, Shanghai International Settlement and on the Unequal Treaties but no unifying article? Where to start?

Namely I'd like the concessions to be kept in mind to be linked, so when it's created it's easier to integrate. Often when detailing the battles in Chinese cities they keep mentioning troop movements, but I'd imagine one of the prevailing thoughts and issues for tactics on the commander's mind is how to get from point A to point B without damaging the French/American/British settlement or how the Japanese can use their own settlement to their own advantage. (Of course, this is something I should be posting on the milhist page.) Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 21:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that'd be a good idea. What would be a good name for the article? Concessions in China?
Actually, during the war the Japanese were far more interested in not damaging the concessions than the Chinese were, for obvious reasons. (For example, Battle of Shanghai and the 800 Heroes.) Also, I think most/many of the concessions were already returned to China, so the only major ones left were Shanghai and (I'm not sure but possibly) Guangzhou/Guangdong. -- Миборовский 22:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The article name sounds right. I thought the concessions were only returned to China during the Sino-British Friendship Treaty of 1943 (to support an alliance against the Axis)? This map I found portrays that the concessions dwarf the Nationalist-controlled portions of Shanghai, the old city itself is well can only be attacked by river or from the south in an extremely longwinded flank (I guess that's where amphibious assault came in) but it seems really defensible seeing as whatever the KMT needed to defend seemed to be a minor portion of the city! I was just wondering how it Shanghai could be the "core of the KMT economy" as so described in the Battle of Shanghai article if most of it was foreign-controlled? I guess one could have a KMT-friendly presence inside the concessions, but they would be invulnerable to attack until 1941.
That reminds me, when the Germans started fighting the Allies in September 1939, did German troops start attacking others in the concessions (seeing as Japan moved in 1941), and what was their fate? This is for wherever the Germans had concessions or had German property and military possessions, ie. those in Tianjin. Sino-German cooperation seems to only detail the 1937 and 1941 relationship issues, but not 1939. Somehow the Italian concession in Tianjin (see article) managed to have their military garrison intact as well between 1939 and 1941. Or was it "All Quiet on that Eastern Front" too? ;-) Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 01:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, IIRC the Italians also shared the foreign concessions in Shanghai, at least in 1937. I do not know what happened to them in 1939, though. (And Italy only joined Axis after la six-week capitulation française...) -- Миборовский 02:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the concept of "cliques" needs to be more well grounded in an actual article(s). Wikifying a province name then saying "clique" after it isn't exactly ideal. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 06:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

French articles

Since Blueshirts understands French (as do I) I just found out they had a larger wealth of articles than I thought. They don't have an article on the NRA, the Battle of Shanghai, and the article on the Second Sino-Japanese War is pitiful etc. but they seem to have a larger collection of material about obscurer topics like minor warlords and 28 Bolsheviks...hmmm. Methinks some better correlations is needed Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 07:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

My French sucks so I can't be of any help here... try listing them in the to-do list, eh? -- Миборовский 17:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

China portals consistency

We should try to establish a consistent look-and-feel for all the China-related portals, Portal:China, Portal:Taiwan, Portal:Hong Kong, Portal:People's Republic of China, and Portal:Republic of China. I have created a Portal:People's Republic of China (new) consistent with Portal:China. Ideogram 11:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking at Portal:Taiwan, I see these issues:

  • Uses browsebarcountry instead of browsebar. I don't think browsebarcountry is appropriate since it combines Politics, Government, Culture, and History, which we are trying to keep separate.
  • Color scheme is different. If we want to have the same color scheme for all the portals, we have to decide on one. Or, we may decide to let all the portals have different color schemes.
  • "See also: Portal:Republic of China". I think this could be moved to a disambiguation section at the top of the page which would list all five portals.
  • Anniversaries box. I think that legal holidays, being determined by the government, belong on the government related portals.
  • Did you know box. The Plum Blossom entry is government related and belongs on Portal:ROC.
  • Categories box. The categories Economy and Politics should be moved to Portal:ROC. Transportation should be duplicated in both portals. I also need to create the corresponding categories box in Portal:China and Portal:PRC. The use of pictures is very good and I would probably need help finding appropriate pictures to use.
  • Other portals box. The contents of this box should not be in a box. See Portal:China.
  • Skeleton. In general, we should use the same skeleton template for all the portals. I can easily replace the skeleton of Portal:Taiwan (and Portal:ROC) while keeping the same content if you are willing. I see now that it is already using the same skeleton template. Ideogram 11:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Use of icons. The icons are very good and I will copy them over. Ideogram 11:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
About Portal:Taiwan: I've just replaced the browsebarcountry template with plain text; Changed color theme to orange; PRC portal should stay as red/gold, ROC could be red/blue, I'm not sure if China, Taiwan, Hong Kong should have the same color theme or let them be individual; Disambiguation text placed at the top; Removed anniversaries box; Moved Plum blossom item from Did You Know to ROC portal; Removed the box "Other portals"; Skelaton layout needs to be decided upon; Category box needs to be weeded out between Taiwan and ROC categories. — Nrtm81 19:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that mandating Portal colour schemes is just going a little bit overboard... It's really for each portal to decide how it should look, I don't think people uninvolved in that portal should have a say. -- Миборовский 20:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am trying to get together all of the people involved in all of the portals. So far it's just us. Ideogram 20:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
True, the color of the portals tends to reflect what is more accustomed for that subject. China tends to use red (Chinese New Year), Hong Kong is accustomed to blue due to the flag under British rule (just my guess). Also red seems to suggest blood, battle, or communism. Taiwan tends to use green for "island" though it apparently has connection to independence movement. — Nrtm81 20:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Red is the favorite color of Chinese culture. Not that I'm arguing they should all be the same color, but if they are it should be red. Ideogram 20:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Chinese obsession with red (and yellow/gold) has nothing to do with communism. Though it may seem to be so. Even I sometimes get allergic reactions to "滿江紅" displays of red on China-related stuff. But really, each to his own. I'm happy with red for Portal:China. -- Миборовский 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I know that red is popular in Chinese culture but the red/yellow combo used in the design of the PRC flag is just like the USSR flag. Was that just coincidence? Makes me wonder. By the way Miborovsky, what's your take on the name for the portal concerning Taiwan? At the moment, there's three suggestions: Portal:Taiwan (I prefer), Portal:Taiwan Island (or "Taiwan (island)", Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China. — Nrtm81 03:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Your choice really. I'm not involved in the Taiwan Portal (though I get involved in the ROC one) so it's really not for me to decide. But still, I prefer Portal:Taiwan, as long as the portal makes clear that it's about the island and that Taiwan =/= ROC. It's counterrproductive to get overly sensitive about everything. But still, I wonder what you're gonna do about those little Fujian islands. -- Миборовский 16:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think the Fujian islands can be covered under the ROC portal. After all, the USA was the one that persuaded the KMT not to lose them to the PRC. The Taiwan portal is mainly about the island of Formosa and the Pescadores as the history goes back four centuries, whereas the Fujian islands are more recent (after ROC came into existence) — Nrtm81 20:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

New article Heaven worship needs experts

I just created the article Heaven worship which is in need of an expert to expand it. It's a very interesting subject, but a pity I don't know more about it. -- Миборовский 20:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a Chinese article on "Heaven worship" but it's more like "God" as the article. The intro says: The "Emperor Above" (also "Heavenly Lord", "Heavenly Emperor")... 上帝，（或稱天主、天帝）zh:上帝. Though it says in the traditional Chinese belief, the term refers to 玉皇大帝 (Jade Emperor). I put a Chinese link to the article. Have fun editing :-)04:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Argh... Jade Emperor is Daoist... maybe Heaven worship was introduced by the Lost Ten Tribes of the Abrahamic people that were exiled from Judah in 722 BCE. According to History of the Jews in China, there is a tablet dated 1663 commemorating the rebuilding of a synagogue that states Judaism was transmitted to China via India during the Zhou dynasty (690 CE - 705 CE) which corresponds to the exile of the Ten Lost Tribes. Also Abrahamic peoples are the only people that worship one God and forbid idol worship. — Nrtm81 05:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
no no, you see, Judaism was actually introduced to Israel by the Thirteenth Man, the guy who got lost while following Huangdi around in the remote Gobi deserts. Clearly, only the Chinese are smart enough to invent religions.
Just kidding. --Sumple (Talk) 09:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It is unlikely. There is no mention of Jews or Israeli in the Zhou historical texts and the 1663 tablet contradicts records of earlier tablets. As far as I gather, in 尚書「舜讓於德，弗嗣。正月上日，受終於文祖。在璿璣玉衡，以齊七政。肆類於上帝，禋於六宗，望於山川，遍於群神。輯五瑞。既月乃日，覲四岳群牧，班瑞於群後。」（虞書˙舜典） Not only the worship of Heaven is mentioned, but ancestors and other deities are mentioned as well. --Yenchin 10:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured Portal status

Requirements for Featured Portal status can be found here. Ideogram 20:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../w/i/k/Wikipedia_talk%7EWikiProject_China_Archive_June_2006_e12a.html"