Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Carnivorous plants

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[edit] Introduction

Hi everyone! I thought it would be good to get some collaboration going on the carnivorous plant articles here on Wikipedia. Thank you Veledan for suggesting this WikiProject! All the information there right now is just tentative ideas. Please suggest or implement any changes as you see fit. If anyone knows of any suitable templates, for example, please add them.

If you start or edit Wikipedia articles related to Carnivorous plants on a regular or even occasional basis, please add your name to the participants list. There is also an "adopt an article" section that you could add yourself to when you are undertaking building/improving a page. Thank you and I look forward to working together with all of you!! --NoahElhardt 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Borderline carnivores

I see many are listed in this project. Should I go ahead and list Stylidium there as well (my pet project)? Wondered if this was a deliberate omission so I figured I'd ask here before just adding it. Let me know what you think! And thanks for creating this project. -Rkitko 05:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rkitko and Welcome! The omission of Stylidiums was not purposeful. The list I used was a direct copy of that on the carnivorous plant page. Are Stylidiums even considered to be borderline carnivorous anymore? I wasn't aware that they were. If they are, feel free to add them. Please also add a paragraph discussing their carnivory (or lack thereof) on the Stylidium page - the only indicator currently is the image description. Thanks for joining the project! --NoahElhardt 05:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah yes, I was meaning to get around to adding that to the Stylidium page anyway. The reference I have from 2002 (Darnowski) describes triggerplants as protocarnivorous or subcarnivorous. They have the ability to trap and kill, but not the ability to digest, like many other borderline carnivores. They're still being tested for digestive enzymes, but the assumption is that they do not produce them. When I was working with Stylidium in the lab, I would find fungus gnats and fruit flies in the muscilage. Quite interesting plants all around. If that's sufficient, I'll go ahead and add it. Thanks! -Rkitko 06:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I would like this project to focus primarily on those plants known to be carnivorous (there is plenty of work to do in this area without adding other plants), but if you are willing to do the work we could definetally add a section on protocarnivores. This section would eventually include quite a few plants, including Ibicella lutea (Mameli, 1916), Dipsacus (Christy, 1923), Passiflora foetida (Radhamani et al., 1995), Paepalanthus bromeloides (Jolivet, 1998), and Geranium viscosissimum and Potentilla arguta (Spomer, 1999) (see link). Go for it! --NoahElhardt 15:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it's always hard to deal with issues of demarcation, especially when nature provides us with shades of grey. I would certainly be willing to work as hard as possible on the protocarnivores (their evolutionary history fascinates me, particularly). I'm excited about this project! -Rkitko 18:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks like everyone took a vacation from this project? Hope not. Just letting you know, if you didn't see it on Talk:Carnivorous plant#Borderline carnivores, I left some questions that might help me in the development of another article. I'd like input from everyone! Thanks, all. -Rkitko 04:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project aims

Hi again and well done for getting this page up so fast Noah!

I'm happy to have my name next to Bladderwort on the list of pet projects but I think we should make it clear from the start if we are attaching names that we don't own individual articles. Yes I wrote most of Bladderwort and I intend to add more to it but others are of course welcome to add stuff / hack it apart etc. I think a more productive approach is to encourage multiple editors to work on one article simultaneously rather than parcel out one article per editor - a whole article is a big job! And if I don't get round to writing up any evidence I've gathered soon enough, I'd like to be able to dump quotes and other information on the talk page of an article, and see what others can do with it. ~ Veledan • Talk 18:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Veledan. I completely agree. While there is some value to "adopting articles", there is also no "owning" articles and we need all the collaboration we can get. Would you prefer a "collaboration of the week" format rather than an "adopt an article" format? I think it might help us systematically get articles completed in a thorough fashion.
I didn't attach your name as a signature of ownership, but rather as an invitation for you to inform us of the status of the article there. I think it would be nice to have some sort of list that shows the status of various articles we are working on so we can see what most needs to be done. What do you think? --NoahElhardt 20:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nepenthes articles: done

Every known Nepenthes species has its own article, albeit the majority are just stubs. Now it's just a matter of adding images and expanding... Mgiganteus1 02:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I will try work on the Natural known hybrids of Nepenthes. I've just uploaded a few pics, took a stab at x trichocarpa and am still trying to figure out how to work on this Wiki stuff. Flytrap canada 22:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)Flytrap_Canada

[edit] International issues

I added a paragraph concern international teamwork and I hope this is okay and will find a certain response. Any feedback is appreciated, Denisoliver 11:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

copied from main page:

Maybe somebody is interested in parallelizing efforts on any of these articles?

I would be, but I feel that I should probably concentrate on getting the last few sections of the Drosera article finished first. How would you suggest this parallel effort is done? Most english users will only be able to supply information, but not glean much from the German language pages. However, I guess that the data gathering could be done together - for example, a list of informative webpages and information from books could be posted on a talk page for both languages to use. What do you think? --NoahElhardt 22:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, teaming with you would indeed be easy, as you can read and write German. We could work together on a special subpage. I would propose to share the sections to write then, i.e. you would write the description, I would write the part on distribution and habitat, you would write the part on botanical history, I'd make the one on systematics and so on .. As we both understand each others language, we can write it bilangual, in the end we have just to translate half an article and then place it -almost finished- in our "Home-WP", where we'd customize the text relating to the specialities of our local WPs. Of course, "sharing" the sections shouldn't be to exclusive, the other one can (and should!) of course review it and might add additional information from his sources to the text, maybe as a comment (<!-- foo bar -->. On the subpages talkpage we could note the sources we've available, the other one can ask for infos then or might get access to the concerning literature too.
The basic principle would be the same in case of a team consisting of users, which do not speak all the same languages as we both luckily do. The team would either have to agree on the language to use as a lingua franca then (usually this would be English and additional translating would be necessary by the other poor guy :) ) or reduce the teamwork on all but writing (review, source-access and exchange) or teaming in writing a telegram-style version of the article, which could be a good fundament then for a full-text version of the article in any language. There are many possible ways and the exact way to teamwork should be defined by every team itself. My 2 cent, Denisoliver 07:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this kind of project would definetaly be beneficial. The last few weeks have been rather busy for me as I was finishing up the school year, but I am free again and have more time to devote to projects such as this.
One thing that has been mentioned before was a kind of "collaboration of the week", where Wikiproject members would all work together on the same page. This could easily be done in a way that would be beneficial for more than one language, so maybe that might be the best way to go. The english Sarracenia page could definetaly use some work, so I'd love to start on that one. Is anyone else interested in a collaboration of the week project?
If not, you and I could team up and work on pages together. My biggest love among the cp's is Drosera, and so my first inclination is to work mainly on those (I just translated Drosera madagascariensis and wrote a page on Drosera anglica), but of course the genera pages should be finished first. --NoahElhardt 22:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Fine. Though I also like Drosera the most, I agree, that at first the CP-genera should be rather complete. I guess, that the state of the Nepenthes-article is rather good already in both WP's and Cephalothus follicularis is not so urgent (and not a stub anymore at least in the de-WP). So three important articles are needing some rework in both WP's: Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Roridula. Personally, I would prefer to choose Sarracenia or Heliamphora, they are simply more important than Roridula. Sarracenia' would be easier, as the plants are quite well-known, pictures are available at commons and there exists a large amount of literature. And there is already a nice start in the en-WP. Heliamphora would need to be completely rewritten, both WP's have almost nothing to offer, it is definitely the larger challenge. But we can do both too, maybe ... ;) Denisoliver 11:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article names

Great work creating all the new articles guys. I think we should consider getting the article names consistent though, especially with ref to the question of common name vs binomial name. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Examples has a preference for using the most common name of species and genera where that doesn't cause ambiguity. So we have articles called "Bladderwort" instead of "Utricularia", and "Venus Fly Trap" instead of "Dionaea": the latin names still have pages but they are redirect pages, pointing to the main article. That part is fairly clear, but then we have to decide where to draw the line in CP articles. Should Sarracenia redirect to North American pitcher plant or Trumpet pitcher, or is Sarracenia the commoner term? Is Sarracenia rubra really better known as Sweet trumpet (the name d'Amato gives it) or do most of us just call it Sarracenia rubra? And I guess whatever name the people who have it growing naturally around them call it has a claim even if CP enthusiasts always use the binomial names. Thoughts, anyone? ~ Veledan • Talk 14:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that common names are only used when referring to whole genera. I hear "sundew" used a lot but never "Alice's sundew" - just Drosera aliciae. Maybe we should give the generic pages common names while using latin names on species pages? People likely to be looking up specific species are likely to know the specific names. People who are interested in who genera, however, often are unaware of the generic names (at the same time, they are very unlikely in experience to know "North American Pitcher Plant", or "Trumpet Pitcher" - they are likely just to know them as "pitcher plants"). Personally I think binomial names are better everywhere to avoid ambiguosity and confusion, but to follow convention it would probably be best to use common names for at least a few of the well-known genera. --NoahElhardt 15:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You could always use the google test as a guide in most cases.
  • "Sarracenia" got 412,000 hits.
  • "North American pitcher plant" got 95 hits.
  • "Trumpet pitcher" got 772 hits.
It would appear the Sarracenia article should remain there, and it even appears that "Drosera" is more common than "sundew" (969,000 and 392,000 hits respectively). The common naming conventions are there to allow the most people to find the article where they would expect it to be. And by far, I think the largest majority of people searching for these articles will be carnivorous plant enthusiasts who know the latin name Drosera or Sarracenia. Perhaps sometimes, binomial names wouldn't be appropriate for some very well-known species. Though I would even suggest moving Cape sundew to Drosera capensis (Google hits: 949 and 54,000, respectively). -Rkitko 18:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recategorising in progress

Some of the categories in question relate to the genera you folks work on... these are single genus categories which are being moved to families (as well as pages in order categories being sorted into families). There's a couple of us on it, so shouldn't take long.

Beautiful articles there BTW! SB Johnny 01:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! The plants were originally in family categories, but recently someone moved them to genera - I'm glad to see them moving back. Some of these categories may eventually get prohibitively large - only 200 entries will show per page, so users will have navigate through multiple pages. For now, though, I think this will work great. Thanks for doing the work! Much appreciated. --NoahElhardt 01:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem... was trying to clean up one of the order cats (Caryophyllales) when I saw them. BTW, Nepenthes is indeed a 1 genus family anyway, right?SB Johnny 02:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct: Nepenthes is the sole genus in the family Nepenthaceae. --NoahElhardt 02:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution maps

Hello, I have made distribution maps in SVG for probably all genuses of CP few days ago. See Commons:Category:Carnivorous plants distribution maps (only SVG ones). Now I have add them to articles here.


I made maps in accordance to http://www.honda-e.com/A02_World%20Maps/CPWorldMap1.htm and czech book "Masožravé rostliny" from "David Švarc" and maps that was on Commons. In case of proboscidea is map on http://www.honda-e.com/A02_World%20Maps/CPWorldMap1.htm disabled (with no red colour) -> Only information I have find was http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PRLO - only distribution in USA - so I faked the map a little.


In cases of brocchinia, catopsis and proboscidea are on map only carnivorous species (like on http://www.honda-e.com/A02_World%20Maps/CPWorldMap1.htm). I could take take the maps other species too (most likely with another colour), but I have no details.


I will be happy, if somebody check whether are those maps correct. I (or enybody else) could modificate it.

I have one question: why isn't proboscidea in list of CP like ibicella? I taught, that proboscidea is protocarnivorous too.

Hi Petr, nice to see that my invitation worked and you joined us. Many of your maps meanwhile have been integrated in the articles of my "home-WP" de, it is good to have them available for all genus. What about species maps now? ;) You are right with the Proboscidea, I'll add this. Regards from Germany, Denisoliver 21:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I can try it, if I will have some time, but I have no basics. Now I am in GB for 3 weeks without computer, so I if will have computer and time after I will try to do it. --62.121.27.37 13:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need some help referencing

Greetings, all! I'm currently working on creating protocarnivorous plant and I decided to flush out a large part of the article in my sandbox: User:Rkitko/sandbox/ (I've only just begun). There's one part in particular that I was hoping someone could help me out with:

By this definition, many marsh pitcher plants (Heliamphora), a few North American pitcher plants (Sarracenia), and the cobra lily (Darlingtonia californica) would not be included on a roster of carnivorous plants because they rely on symbiotic bacteria to produce the necessary proteolytic enzymes

I have a solid reference for the statement concerning Heliamphora, but I've read conflicting reports on Darlingtonia and I'm not well versed at all in Sarracenia. A book I have (Interrelationship Between Insects and Plants by Pierre Jolivet) indicates that Darlingtonia does indeed produce it's own proteolytic enzymes, but relies upon bacteria as well to produce some of these enzymes. Frustratingly, Jolivet doesn't provide a specific source for that statement and everything else I've read indicates that Darlingtonia doesn't have the capacity to produce it's own digestive enzymes. If anyone could provide clarification on Darlingtonia and a specific reference (perhaps specific species) of Sarracenia that doesn't produce its own enzymes for digestion, that would be fantastic. No hurry, though. Thanks! --Rkitko 08:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

From everything I've ever heard, Darlingtonia californica is unable to produce its own digestive enzymes, and relies on a soup of bacteria etc.. I'm on vacation right now and so don't have my books handy, but will look up a reference for you upon returning.
As for Sarracenia, Sarracenia purpurea is the only species with little or no (I think its no) proteolytic enzyme production. Again, I don't have a reference handy, but can look one up in a week or so. Hope that helps! --NoahElhardt 00:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you! And that's what I've come to know as common knowledge as well about both species, but can't find authoritative references. And it's not like Jolivet's book is out-dated (published in 1998). I was half-tempted to contact the man and demand a reference. I'll continue searching on JSTOR for published papers on both species. Thanks again! --Rkitko 00:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah hah! Found something. Ellison et al. (2005) report: "Darlingtonia does not possess digestive enzymes (Hepburn et al., 1927); captured prey is broken down by a food web of bacteria, protozoa, mites, and fly larvae (Naeem, 1988: Nielsen, 1990). The plant absorbs the mineral nutrients excreted by this food web." Ellison relies upon a 1927 paper on the subject of digestive enzymes. I was hoping to find a more up-to-date source on the matter (since understanding of enzyme activity has changed wildly since 1927...), but I suppose a 2005 American Journal of Botany article relying on a 1927 source should be trust-worthy. --Rkitko 04:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Great, looks good! For S. purpurea, check out [[1]] NoahElhardt 14:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks! I also found the following paper, which basically said that there's been no conclusive evidence on the plant-produced enzymes in S. purpurea, contrary to early 1920s claims that there were indeed proteolytic enzymes of plant origin. It also noted that S. purpurea mostly relies on its commensals for digestion of prey. Neat stuff!
  • Bradshaw, W.E. and Creelman, R.A. (1984). Mutualism between the carnivorous purple pitcher plant and its inhabitants. American Midland Naturalist, 112(2): 294-304. --Rkitko 18:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Photographs ... your thoughts?

I just wrote the following thoughts on my personal discussion page, then realized that not everyone on the project will see it. So here it is, cut and pasted in its entirety for all to comment on:

Hi and thanks again for your kind words. You guys and the rest on this project are doing a most noble and decent effort.... so my accolades go out to all of you for organizing and getting this project off the ground in the first place.

My first question is the offering of images to everyone.

I don't really have a problem posting my photos on Wikipedia for all to use and enjoy on Wikipedia, but I have seen some of my earlier photos used on commercial sites without my permission. And one of the commercial sales sites have recently been caught and thus, blacklisted, for cheating folks on sales... so I find it unethical for some to take without contributing. I understand that once a photo is uploaded to Wikipedia, it's free for all to use, and you lose your rights...with no input where your pics may go. So I tried to limit the use via the Educational limit use and was informed that the photo would then be a sure way to be deleted. Interesting.

What are your thoughts? I have thousands of CP photos amassed over a few decades, and it does no one any good to have them all stored in shoe boxes and hard drives in my home.

Flytrap canada 16:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a great question and one I've asked myself before. You are right in that photos uploaded here are free for the using by anyone, and that most restrictions (such as educational use only) are not allowed. However, you can use licenses that will not allow your photos to be used in a product that is sold (book, magazine, etc), or that require that you are credited as the photographer whenever the image is used.
In the end, its question of cost versus gain. The advantages having well-taken and accurately labeled photographs of plants readily available online has always won out for me over any possible misuse or loss of personal gain that may ensue. Online photographs are what first made me fall in love with cp's, and I still find them invaluable for understanding habitat conditions, growth forms, and so forth. The choice is of course entirely yours to make - though I must say I personally would love to see more of your work online. If you do decide to upload more photos, consider using the wikimedia commons, which will allow your photos to be used in other wikimedia projects, such as foreign-language wikipedias. --NoahElhardt 17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 23:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] CP People

What do you folks think about a piece on some of the great CP luminaries we've had - Joe Mazrimas, Leo Song, Larry Mellichamp, Adrian Slack, Donald Schnell etc to name a few. I know we stand the awful chance of missing some folks...but it will be a start to reference a lot of the good work these people have contributed over the decades. Perhaps we should qualify the CP luminaries by stating a few "rules" to abide by. Your thoughts? Flytrap canada 22:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea! Joachim Nerz, Adrian Slack and Andreas Wistuba already have pages, but many others are well deserving of their own. Several of these names already appear in several articles as redlinks, which should be fixed. As far as inclusion rules go, I think they should have at least published several new species or important scientific works related to the plants. Shall we make a list of prospective bio pages? --NoahElhardt 00:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Allen Lowrie already has a stubentry in de, I will translate it beside the other marked entries too. All in all it is rather hard to find out any data on these persons (regrettably). We should not miss

Greets, Denisoliver 22:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Charles, Ch'ien, Robert, and Peter have contributed much to the recent knowledge and positive commercial viability of CPs (access to rare plants and books)... so I hope it's okay to include good folks in the commerce of CPs Flytrap canada 01:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarracenia Cultivars

Think it would be worthwhile to list out cultivars for Sarracenia on this page: List_of_Sarracenia_species_and_hybrids? (Ex. S. 'Judith Hindle'.) And would it be proper to re-use the registered cultivar description in the new articles?

The Sarracenia article says:

Several species have subspecies or recognized varieties. The International Carnivorous Plant Society (ICPS) formally recognizes a number of cultivars as well. See the complete list for a listing of species including these taxa.

Which would seem to indicate to me that the following list would INCLUDE cultivars, and it currently only lists "Common hybrids" with formal names like S. x catesbaei. Thoughts? -->Chemical Halo 00:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style questions

Greetings, all. As you know, I've been going through and writing articles on some Stylidium species. I was wondering if you could opine on a few questions I had:

  1. Should I go ahead and move the triggerplant page to Stylidium per the flora naming convention? Just forgot about it until I ran across it a couple days ago.
  2. I've been using the same block of general text describing the nature of a Stylidium species in the species stubs (i.e. the last paragraph in Stylidium adnatum, Stylidium repens, Stylidium hispidum, etc.). Should I remove those and leave it up to the reader to read further into the genus-level article and keep the description solely on the species-level attributes? If they differ from the norm, then the norm should at least have mention, but I'm beginning to second-guess my decision to include those paragraphs in every species article. May just be unnecessary fluff.

Opinions? Rkitko 09:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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