Wikipedia talk:WikiProject British Motorsport

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This article is part of WikiProject British Motorsport, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to Motorsport in the United Kingdom. Consult the project page for further information.

Guys, you have a lot of work to do with Stirling Moss Ericd 21:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Nationality 2 The Irish Question 3 Lack of Rallying articles 4 Circuit navigation sidebar 5 Bruntingthorpe 6 Project directory 7 Win Percy 8 Standard lead for UK drivers

[edit] Nationality

There's been quite a bit of argument elsewhere about what makes someone English or Scottish etc. Lots of people, including me, feel that an English birthplace doesn't necessarily make you English for instance. Other factors including descent and personal identity preferences come into play and we don't have knowledge of a lot of these drivers, especially the older ones. Obviously Jenson Button is English, he identifies with being English and there's no doubt about it - same for DC and Scotland. A lot of the others are less obvious and in some cases it's wrong and possibly offensive to label someone as English or Scottish simply based on birthplace. If Jenson's mother just happened to have been in Wales when he was born, he would be no less English, but by this token we might be calling him Welsh.

It has been pointed out that to say someone is English without verification is "anti-wiki", and birthplace does not constitute verification. So how do we avoid this and also avoid future arguments? Do we list drivers of uncertain nationality just as British, or do we work by "Racing drivers native to England" i.e. born there, instead of "English racing drivers".

One example of the problem is Duncan Hamilton who is currently down as both Irish and English, and another is Brian Shawe-Taylor who is listed as English but was born in Ireland. Bretonbanquet 17:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, and something we should attempt to clear up to have consistency. If there is uncertainty, we could simply use "Category:British racecar drivers". The trouble is that all drivers race under UK licences. As you say DC obviously considers himself Scottish as he races with the flag on his helmet, Button considers himself English (as did Hill & Mansell) and Allan McNish asked DTM organsiers to use the Scottish flag next to his name on captions etc. so they can all go into their relevant countries. My suggestion would be to put drivers under their suspected nationality unless challanged in which case move it to British. Where possible cite proof of considered nationality on the talk page of the driver. This would seem to me the only logical way of doing it as there are so many articles that would need checking, and in some cases possibly no ablilty to check. I disagree with "Racing drivers native to England" as it doesn't actually say anything really. A driver born abroad might move to England at 1 year old and therefore be covered under the WikiProject but not eligible for the category. At the end of the day, nationality is what you consider yourself to be, I consider myself Welsh, yet my passport is British. Cornish drivers are also difficult to classify, there are some people who consider it to be a seperate nationality with it's own traditions and language. It would be interesting to hear what others have to say on this. Alexj2002 19:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The standard and agreed approach used in WP:F1 is basically to go with the passport - which would match whatever the FIA have the driver registered as, and the flags used at the podium ceremony. This is the only definition which (once accepted as the definition) is unarguable - nationality then becomes a question of fact, not of opinion. This would of course mean that all drivers from Britain and Northern Ireland would go down as UK, because there are no Scottish, Welsh etc passports, only British ones. Likewise it is always the Union Jack which is used on the podium. Mansell, Hill and Coulthard are righly proud of their national identities as English or Scots, but that didn't change the flag that was used. My recollection is that this was also the case for Eddie Irvine (NI). If you list drivers under their nationality witin the UK you will be inconsistent with Wikiproject F1 - so please don't change the F1 drivers articles to English, Scottish etc as you will be re-opening an issue which has been debated many times and a concensus reached. Having said that, because this project is focussing only on Britain (or possibly Britain and Ireland!) perhaps a finer focus would be appropriate here where there isn't a conflict with the F1 articles. Having said that, I don't see that you can do anything other than 'this driver considers him/herself English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish etc', which is a rather nasty phrase. Do any of the racing bodies (TOCA etc) list drivers by nationality? Best of luck. --4u1e 07:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw some fuel on the fire - both Mansell and Button race with the Union Jack, not the cross of St George, on their helmets! Plainly British! --4u1e 07:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The DTM [1] shows some drivers with Scottish flags next to them but others like Jamie Green with the Union Flag (there's a bit of a fuss over that term as well, it's only the Jack when flown at sea). Interesting also is this quaote from Allan McNish [2]. With Eddie Irvine I recall some fuss being made over the flag used on the podium in his book (Green Races Red IIRC) It's many years since I read it but I seem to recall them asking him if he wanted the Union Flag or the Republic of Ireland Flag, he answered "What do you think" and they flew the Republic flag despite him being from NI. Don't quote me on that though, might have recalled it wrong! If WP F1 is using British, perhaps for consistency we should do the same. 80.189.229.194 12:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's very interesting to read these comments - I certainly would prefer to see "British" used to describe the nationality of these drivers, as the English / Scottish etc terms are open to huge rows and mistakes can be made. I had a big argument with someone (who wasn't interested in motor racing by the way) over the Chris Craft article when I changed "English" to "British" - Craft was born in Cornwall and maybe he identified with being Cornish, I argued. I was threatened with blocking and it got a bit ugly, to be honest. It looks like I've won over that particular argument, but it's a good indicator of how awkward this can be. I would sleep better, frankly, if I didn't receive abuse for using the term "British", as I have in other non-motor racing articles, but I guess we can't have everything in life... Bretonbanquet 18:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a thorny one. British is correct in most cases though, and even the most patriotic Scottish, English and Welsh drivers seem to have no problem in accepting membership of the British Racing Drivers' Club. Personally, the only group I can see having an issue with this are people from NI, as technically the country is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". So NI citizens will race under the Union Jack, but are not necessarily British. Although my passport explicitly states "British" as my nationality I was born in London so no confusion, I don't have any Northern Irish friends to hand to see what theirs say. Anyone? Pyrope 16:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The British article states that the adjective now means "from the UK", rather than "from Great Britain", and I would agree with that. Of course some people in Northern Ireland would class themselves as Irish, but de jure at least I think it's agreed that they're British. Loganberry (Talk) 02:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Irish Question

Here's something I want to resolve to avoid conflict in the future. Should articles relating to the Republic of Ireland be included in this category? If so should the category be renamed to British & Irish Motorsport? The BTCC races in the Republic, and there is association between the two countries, but they stage their own rounds of the WRC. I'm voting For the inclusion and For the name change. Alexj2002 19:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I would vote For and For as well, if only to avoid conflict over the issue of whether someone is Irish or British. It doesn't seem like a huge expansion of things if we were to include Ireland, so I think there's no problem with it. Bretonbanquet 18:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of Rallying articles

I note that there appears to be a lack of Rallying articles in the list. I would hope that some of my fellow wikipedians would help me redress this. We don't all drive round and round in circles you know! --Ewan 21:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Does "Motorsport" restrict you just to tarmac? Doe it restrict you just to cars, what about bikes - Motorcycle sport ??? Pickle

I think "motorsport" refers to cars, bikes, trucks... really anything with an engine that races on land. (Powerboats etc I think are a different kettle of fish.) I do take your point, though, Ewan - it's absurd that there's not one word on the British Rally Championship, for example, although that at least is mentioned in the "To-do" list. I've been writing about hillclimbing a lot, though, so I don't think I'm guilty of the "round and round in circles" charge! =:P Loganberry (Talk) 01:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Circuit navigation sidebar

As I've recently mentioned at Talk:Cadwell Park, the "circuit navigation" sidebar used on individual track pages doesn't really fit in very well with the norm on Wikipedia, as well as getting in the way of adding photos to the top of articles. I'm also uneasy about the "Select a Country" part; that could easily grow to ridiculous sizes as more and more countries were added. It already looks unwieldy with only half a dozen countries; it's just not going to be sustainable with twenty, and you could easily reach that number without leaving Europe. Is there any reason why a more standard type of template box couldn't be used? Something like this, at the very bottom of each track's page:

British motor racing circuits
Anglesey - Bedford - Brands Hatch - Bruntingthorpe - Cadwell Park - Castle Combe - Croft - Donington Park - Goodwood - Knockhill - Lydden Hill - Mallory Park - Oulton Park - Pembrey - Rockingham - Silverstone - Snetterton - Thruxton

This box is easy on the eye, fits in with the style used by other WikiProjects, takes up less space and can be easily expanded to accommodate other circuits. It's true that it doesn't contain quick links to other countries' tracks, but as explained above I can't see how that's going to work in the longer term anyway. Thoughts welcome! Loganberry (Talk) 00:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... no reaction. In that case I'm going to be bold and put it in myself. I've set up a template at {{British motor racing circuits}}, so the original navigation is still there if it's deemed necessary. For now I'm going to use the new template only in the Cadwell Park article, but I do intend to spread the box across other British circuits' articles unless there are objections... so if you do object, then please say so! Loganberry (Talk) 11:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the new menu bar at the bottom of the circuit guides and being the original author of the side menu I think it can now be deleted. Cocjh1 15:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruntingthorpe

Does this really qualify as a racing circuit? Surely it's rather more of a proving ground, along the lines of MIRA or Millbrook, the former of which at least has held sprints but still doesn't qualify. I think Bruntingthorpe should be removed from the template unless it turns out that it has held circuit races. Loganberry (Talk) 15:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with you - even if it has held the odd race it isn't a primary purpose of the facility. Alexj2002 14:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with that, too. Adrian M. H. 17:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Win Percy

Hi. Just drafted a first shot at this page. If anyone has his proper BTCC stats to hand, could you fill the infobox in please? Thanks. Pyrope 19:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standard lead for UK drivers

Suggested standard lead for UK F1 drivers, but approach could probably be consistent for all UK motorsport. Can you guys comment here. Thanks. 4u1e 17:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)