Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian places

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[edit] Regions - NSW

After starting to edit the City of Dubbo I became interested in the regions of NSW articles in particular after reading on page 7 of the 2004-2005 Annual report that...

Dubbo is the only city located in the Orana Region, having developed over time as a major service centre and is situated at the meeting point of the Newell, Mitchell and Golden Highways.

I think that we should agree to the boundaries of regions for each state, and use some government source just like we do with LGA's. Grahamec and I had a very short exchage on this at our talk pages - see User talk:SauliH#Regions in NSW, in which a more arbitrary naming convention was preferred. For NSW the government body for 'regions' would be the [Department of State and Regional Development] I should think. They lists the following regions.

  • Australian Capital Region
  • Central Coast
  • Central West
  • Greater Western Sydney
  • Far West
  • The Hunter
  • Illawarra
  • Mid North Coast
  • Murray
  • New England - North West
  • Northern Rivers
  • Orana
  • Riverina
  • Sydney

Secondly the Department of Local Government show a very similar set of regions using similar defined boundaries.

  • Central West
  • Mid North Coast
  • North Western (the Orana region)
  • Far West
  • Murray
  • Richmond Tweed (a smaller version of Northern Rivers)
  • The Hunter
  • Murrumbidgee (the Riverina)
  • South Eastern (includes the (as Grahamec put it) 'horrible' Australian Capital Region)
  • Illawarra
  • Northern (the New England - North West region)

I think I lost a few of the distinctions in there, but I feel we can work with these as guidelines for naming, and boundaries when we create regional level articles. I wanted to put this up so we could tease this out, and maybe create some stability as the LGA articles develop.

Also the Category:Regions of New South Wales needs a lot of sorting out and cleaning up.SauliH 16:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There does not appear to be any generally accepted list of NSW regions. Both of the lists used above are drawn up by bureaucrats for the benefit of the State Government and LGAs. I particularly don't like Orana (only used by Governments), Australian Capital Region (a tourist-promoters name, which substitutes for the traditional and perfectly acceptable Southern Tablelands and the Murray (which real people consider part of the Riverina). These names don't fit names used by geographers either.
In principle I prefer the Bureau of Meteorology's NSW regions map, although it seems that most people prefer New England to Northern Tablelands (and New England includes the low-lying Tamworth Regional Council). I also consider that it reasonable to combine BoM's forecast areas of Upper Western and Lower Western as Far West, which in any event correspond to the legal definition of the Western Division established under the New South Wales Western Lands Act 1901.
In addition, there are other popular definitions. Monaro is generally applied to the Southern Tablelands, south of Canberra, and I don't object to it. The Southern Highlands is properly applied only to Wingecarribee Shire Council and is not really necessary. Shoalhaven doesn't even apply to the southern parts of the City of Shoalhaven (these currently redirect to same place) and the residents of Shoalhaven and the Illawarra also accept the term South Coast. I don't think Shoalhaven is useful, but Illawarra on balance probably is.
The BoM definitions imply a division of the Central West into Central Tablelands and Central West Slopes and Plains, which would be reasonable.
Using a modified version of the BoM regions also raises the question as whether they should be modified to include whole LGAs: eg it splits Walgett Shire Council into three regions.--Grahamec 07:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the definition of region by Geographical Names Board of NSW we find...

A region is a relatively large tract of land distinguished by certain common characteristics, natural or cultural. Natural unifying features could include same drainage basin., similar landforms, or climatic conditions, a special flora or fauna, or the like. Cultural determining features could include boundaries proclaimed for administrative purposes, common land use patterns etc.

It would appear that what we are discussing is the differences between cultural and natural. Orana is a cultural name, which is being used by the councils (see Dubbo annual report. I have seen it on other LGA sites.SauliH 14:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Councils like to join together in sufficent numbers to lobby State and Federal Governments (and to attend conferences with), and are quite happy to support any name for a grouping that is allocated. This is not quite the same as constituting a "cultural" region. These names get changed at the whim of governments (besides they are things of the NSW Dept of Local Govt, and can be told what to accept). I appreciate that for Wikipedia to impose its own name scheme is close to original research, but I'm uncomfortable with names that the general public are unaware of. I am sure my grandfather who was brought up in Dubbo would have been appalled to know that he lived in Orana, as I am to find that I live in the Australian Capital Region.--Grahamec 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem I see in using the NSW BoM regions map is that it will be difficult to write a definitive article beyond the climate, and physical attributes. With the LGA based districts, you have stats (Orana is merged with the far north west region), and Organisations, (and Organisation 2). Furthermore it is these regions that are the basis of the Regional Organisation of Councils (ROCs).
Oh, and the Australian Capital region? Check out this page :)SauliH 04:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I wrote articles on the various regions of Western Australia ages ago. Initially the exercise was extremely confusing, and I thought, as stated above, that "there does not appear to be any generally accepted list". In hindsight, the confusion was caused by the fact that there are too many lists, due to laxity in language in referring to the various regionalisations of Australia (boy do I wish someone would write that article). People will use the word "regions" to mean electoral districts, statistical divisions, ecoregions, floristic provinces, meteorological subdivisions, heaven knows what else. Nonetheless, I did, eventually, manage to track down the legislation that defined just what they were. I highly recommend not undertaking the project until you have a well-defined regionalisation to work to. It will be a dog's breakfast if multiple regionalisations get mushed up together. Hesperian 05:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well tonight I started an article Geographic Divisions of New South Wales. Maybe not the perfect name, but for now it will do. Please add to it as we see fit, I intend to keep going and create a more extensive outlining of the various 'regionalisations' as User:Hesperian put it. I think doing this on a state by state basis will be better than Australia-wide.SauliH 08:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
WA's a good example of how it should work, but in our case the names of the regions aren't exceptionally weird, although the boundaries are contestable. If you say any of the names to any Western Australian, they'll know where you mean - all the names are well established. The official guideline for WA regions is on the Local Government & Regional Development website. The WA tourist agency has a very confusing one that's imprecise and absolutely terrible, and the business promotion people are even worse. One other oddity is WA's changed - the Mid West used to relate solely to the southern part of that region with the northern part called the "Murchison" region. Orderinchaos78 (t|c) 14:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Do they equate to the Statistical Divisions shown on the first page of this ABS pdf file? I am leaning towards seeing these used as the guideline for regions. They have been established for many years. They are studied statistically, and they will be stable for many years to come... judging by the SD definition. AND we can cite a source that is in the business of 'regions'.SauliH 16:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a NSW equivalent to the ABS pdf file you quote above? I can't find one. The ABS Statistical Regions are quite good for regional NSW, although I think Northern Rivers is a better name than Richmond-Tweed and Riverina is better than Murray-Murrumbidgee and mean the same thing. I presume Northern is the same as New England or Northern Tablelands (and either of these terms may be preferable). It lumps Southern Tablelands with South Coast, which are rather separated by the escarpment and have different climates, and hence is debatable. Also I would retain the split between North Western and Far West, used for Statistical Divisions.--Grahamec 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
All the links to the estate maps start from this page. It has been the best outlining of regions I have found as I have searched online. Out of the ABS regions types the Statiscal Division lines up closest in my mind to the areas we are discussing here.SauliH 04:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I could live with the ABS regions (but I prefer the name Northern Rivers to Richmond-Tweed and I don't particularly see the need for separate Murray and Murrumbidgee regions).--Grahamec 07:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
No, these are statistical regions used internally by the ABS. The Wheatbelt is quite well understood, but if you said "the Midlands" to somebody they'd think you meant the suburb of Midland, 15 km northeast of Perth. This also introduces an unnecessary conflict between Wheatbelt and Great Southern, who nobody (except DLGRD) can ever agree on where the boundary is anyway - does Katanning have more in common with Albany, a port town, than with Narrogin, a wheat and sheep town and agricultural centre? If there was a logic to the differentiation, I'd agree with it. Orderinchaos78 23:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles names about a city centre

After the above debate, it appears Melbourne city centre was the preferred name. Well, might as well make them all the same - I take it that <City> city centre is the preferred name for articles that are about the central region of a city that is equivalent to a suburb? I guess it would be appropriate for any city which has suburbs. Not that I want to make this into a vote, but...

  • Support -- Chuq 09:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • support as long as there is not an established official name for the area which can be sourced. I would at least start the article there. If an article exists - be wary - or will have @%#^fight! SauliH 15:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: Added the word central above, for clarification. -- Chuq 23:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I would have thought the article should be at Melbourne CBD Gnangarra 00:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You obviously missed the long debate held here. Melbourne CBD was ruled out.SauliH 00:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Penrose, New South Wales

I recently created a stub for Penrose, New South Wales in Wingecarribee Shire Council, which is an old established (but small) rail town. But there is a new suburb of Wollongong, New South Wales, which may well be bigger by now. Should it be Penrose (Wingecarribee), New South Wales or should the other one be Penrose (Illawarra), New South Wales?--Grahamec 07:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:LOCAL

This is in interesting proposed guideline as it's still being discussed I thought I'd draw it to the attention of editors here Gnangarra 05:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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