Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Argentina

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[edit] Banner for articles

Now that we have many editors working on a range of subjects, perhaps it is time to start labelling pages that fall under the Project so that they can be monitored and point people back here for ideas, links, categories and norms.

The initial element needed is a banner for talk pages. Two WikiProjects I come across regularly use the following:

{{WPLondon}} {{TrainsWikiProject}}

The London template is a simple one that allows counting the number of articles and generating a list. The trains template has complicated syntax which adds the possibility of including an assessment of the article that can help monitor the Project and link to subprojects, although this may be much harder when we have such a wide range of subjects. It also links to the to do list, which I like, but otherwise it is probably far too ambitious.

Views?? Martín (saying/doing) 11:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

A suggested banner ({{WPArgentina}}):
This article is part of WikiProject Argentina, an attempt to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of articles related to Argentina

If you would like to participate, you can improve WikiProject Argentina, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list.
??? This article has not yet received an importance rating.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

Martín (saying/doing) 16:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I like it (as it is). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 00:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. I should notice that in order to keep track of such articles, the template shouldn't be subst-ed ({{subst:template}}). Mariano(t/c) 09:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes that's right. We'd need to explain carefully how articles should be tagged; and we should perhaps be quite tight on definitions - should all Argentine people articles be included in the purview of the project that we want to monitor and improve, or just certain categories? Martín (saying/doing) 09:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh and what next? A formal vote? Or start implementation after a few days if consensus is still there? Martín (saying/doing) 10:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think a vote is needed unless there's substantive disagreement. I'm thinking about the goal of this template. If it's mainly to let other people know that "WP:AR was here", it's OK as it is. If the idea is to monitor Argentine articles closely, there should be more than one template, since this is not a small country and we have a very large number of articles. Possible fields: cities/places/geography, people/organizations, history/economy/politics. We're not such a big project as to think of having subprojects, but these specific templates could be a starting point for them in the future. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Pablo is right, I think we should think over the purpose of the tag. Potentially, all articles under Category:Argentina could be tagged, rendering the tag unuseful. If we plan to use some kind of subject-taggin for control (say, tagging then as Category:WPARG high priority or Category:WPARG expand), then it would be nice to do it now in order to avoid future re-taggings. Check for instance {{Chemistry}}. I propose we add an optional parameter to the Template for sorting. But then again, if optional, it could be done later. In short, "No sé lo que quiero, pero lo quiero ya!" Mariano(t/c) 14:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I rather rashly created {{WPArgentina-geo‎}} (see below) having read Pablo's comments as an example of a way forward. I now regret this as it is premature and I hadn't taken in the issues about tagging etc. I may put it up for speedy deletion but thought I'd share first. The chemistry banner is similar to the trains banner I mentioned above, although the trains model, I think, allows categorising by subject (and can be one or more subjects, e.g. person and history, or person and sport, in our case). I don't feel capable of creating such a complicated template and system but I am sure that there are editors who can help.

Template:WPArgentina-geo‎

What would be the key subjects at this stage? I would resist a separate listing for people, as they fall under other subjects. My suggestions are geography et al, history, sport, transport, politics. (Entertainment, military, etc could come later). Martín (saying/doing) 16:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh it seems it doesn't work anyway, perhaps my use of '-' in the title. It's at Template:WPArgentina-geo anyway. Martín (saying/doing) 16:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did it. I completelly ruined {{WPArgentina}} with 3 parameters for subject, importance and quality. CHeck it out, and tell me what you think. Should we cross over Importance and Quality to detect highly important articles with low quality? (e.i. Category:WPArgentina Top Stub articles, Category:WPArgentina Top Start articles,..., Category:WPArgentina Low FA articles) There would be some 5 x 8 = 40 categories if Topic not used. BTW, we could use a diferent qualification, but the 7 level scheme is sometihng of a standard right now. What's more, the {{WPArgentina}} template could automatically add the articles to the corresponding Class category. Mariano(t/c) 10:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

That's really good. I think it's important to use the 7 level scheme but it takes some study to assess the levels properly. To my mind there should be quite a narrow set of Top Importance headline topics and locations which require the most attention to bring up to a decent level of quality. It would be neater English to swap the Importance and Quality, though not crucial, and it's best to leave out the advanced use of Topic for now for categorisation - we'll have enough to do. Btw, looking at Category:Top-importance Australia articles they have the simpler categorisation system but use a table there. I guess that requires someone to keep updating that table, which is annoying, but it does show all the articles together.

In short I think it's ready to go - good work! Martín (saying/doing) 22:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WPArgentina

OK, so we've got the new {{WPArgentina}} template for categorizing Argentina related articles in their talk pages. Questions to solve before we start making (ab)use of it:

  1. How to decide the article's importance?
  2. Are we going to categorize by topic? Later?
  3. Are we having simple categories, or also crossed ones? (Top importance stubs, etc)
    a) If so, how many crossings (we can group importance and quality levels to reduce them)
  4. Are we going to create a small explanatory page to which the tag should link or use the existing ones?

[edit] What is important

We should write some guidelines on importance for every single topic. At least a short paragraph. Anyhow, this is going to be source of arguments. Mariano(t/c) 08:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is absolutely right. Criteria will help us focus and agree by consensus, rather than discuss page by page. Biographies need a separate set of criteria on top of their subject criteria.
But for the Top Importance articles, I think it is just down to a straight fight over a list (with some sort of criteria, in particular their wider importance to the Wiki project). I started a thought process for myself at User:Mtiedemann/ArgImportance‎, just to give myself an idea of how articles would trickle down, to then inform a set of criteria. There are High and Mid Importance articles there for illustration for me, but they are not really helpful to compile by list. Feel free to amend, or ignore it of it's just complicating stuff! Martín (saying/doing) 08:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Prehaps your Top category, with less than 100 articles is a bit strict, but at least it leaves no place to discussion. Mariano(t/c) 10:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
it leaves no place to discuss... - Oh dear! I hope I didn't mean that! Anyway I reconsidered my point above about no criteria, I think these are the easiest criteria - vital or core articles on Wikipedia, core subnational entities, core topics as defined by WikiProject and overall Wikipedia, individuals and events only of major historical and/or global significance. We can still discuss whether Perón has global significance, but I'd like us to be generally sceptical over additions. Martín (saying/doing) 10:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Er, you got me all wrong! (not hat I expressed it badly...) I meant that though a bit to narrow for my taste, at least it's clear and once settled won't produce any arguments! For instance, I would probably also include Alfredo Di Stéfano as a top one, but then others would also be very questionable. In short: I'll stick to yours. BTW, not many people around ain,t it? should we publicitate this a little bit more? Mariano(t/c) 12:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm listening by. :) Need time to think. I fear we will have arguments over certain articles... --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Somehting I forgot to mention. Some would call it an undocumented feature, others a bug, but fact is you can create a talk page for an article that doesn't yet exist, with the tag {{WPArgentina|topic=SomeTopic|importance=High|class=Needed}}, creating a category of missing articles of High priority. Ain't it beautiful?
Never mind me... Mariano(t/c) 15:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Topic categorization

I think it is important to separate articles by topic, since some of us don't give 2 cents for either topic, but perhaps is not crucial to have it right now. Mariano(t/c) 08:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If the template supports the topic, it's no harder to add the Topic field, even if it's not used for now. Martín (saying/doing) 08:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Right. We should then add further topics to the template. What is it missing? Mariano(t/c) 10:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess 'culture' is the major missing element: language, literature, music, media, cinema, television, cuisine - either as one broad group or each split out.
I imagine some people are interested in military history as a separate discipline, although I am sceptical of treating it as separate from social and political history, especially in Argentina; there would then be an argument for economics, which I also would not be too happy with. And should football be separate from sport? Martín (saying/doing) 10:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
And buildings, structures and monuments probably needs a topic heading. Martín (saying/doing) 10:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories crossing

It would be very usefull to have a list (category) of the most important poor articles, since they are probably a priority. Therefore, I suggest we have at least the following categories:

  1. High importance stub articles (Top, High - stub)
  2. High importance fair articles (Top, High - start, B)
  3. High importance fine articles (Top, High - GA, A, FA)
  4. Mid importance stub articles (Mid - stub)
  5. Mid importance fair articles (Mid - start, B)
  6. Mid importance fine articles (Mid - GA, A, FA)
  7. Low importance stub articles (Low - stub)
  8. Low importance fair and fine articles (Low - start, B, GA, A, FA)

Perhaps we could also remove the Low importance categories. Mariano(t/c) 08:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes this is important, I was getting scared of the 40+ categories and think this is the most useful set of categories. Martín (saying/doing) 08:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What about have another set of categories crossed over with Topic? At least a Top-High-Mid Stub category per topic. Perhaps something different? Mariano(t/c) 10:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grades explanation

We should create something like Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Assessment and Category:Top-importance Australia articles for both importance and quality, perhaps together with topic 1 (What is important). Mariano(t/c) 08:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I wrote Wikipedia:WikiProject Argentina/Assessment, but it still needs work (and fixes). The only thing that bothers me is that some articles need not be Featured Articles. For instance, without trying to offend no-one, Marcelo Tinelli should settle with a B-Class article, or perhaps even an Start-Class. How do we translate this to our scheme? Current schemes don't take that into account, so perhaps we won't either. Mariano(t/c) 10:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Despite writing many biographies, I have always worried how they should fit in to this - I imagine most are of low to mid importance and don't really need expansion. Lists of Provincial Governors or Estudiantes Players or Army generals would in my opinion be of more importance to complete than biographies of them one by one; it's just that lists are so dull to research and write. I think we can just do what the other projects do - call them low/mid importance, encourage work on more important topics, and recognise that most editors will carry on researching the details of footballers, politicians and singers rather than their context. Martín (saying/doing) 10:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shaping up

I'd like we all concluded with the assessment and importance guidelines in order to start using the taggin as soon as possible.

I've tagged 3 talk pages with the template. I did it on non-existent articles, in order to keep it off the main road: Talk:Fauna of Argentina, Talk:Agriculture in Argentina and Talk:Electoral system of Argentina. That is, 3 different topics, 2 different importance, and one quality (needed).

I think the system is quite neat, but I'm a little bit dissapointed with the lack of response from the rest of the project. Mariano(t/c) 12:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I have too much more to say, except:
  • Well done Mariano!
  • For some reason Di Stefano is almost unknown in England but you are of course right about him - Top or High (what about Fangio? Should he be High?)
    Fangio, Monzón and Di Stefano can be just High.
  • I'm happy with the assessment and importance pages but they do need others to contribute. Perhaps if we start using this, a few disputes will generate interests - we have to make a few mistakes to test the system anyway. Or we can put a notice on project members' pages
    I agree, if we start using it they will have to contribute when they disagree. A message to the talk pages could be a good idea, but since there's certain paranoia regarding Spam, I will contact only the people I feel comfident.
  • Although it's a pain, maybe it's better that only a few people will be doing most of the grading for consistency.
Could be better, yes. Actually, its not a job I would be looking forward to...
  • I assume you feel buildings and structures can slot into others, which is fine.
    No necesarilly. I though of buildings as either part of the Culture (museums, obelisco), History (casa de tucuman), Transport (bridges, routes), or politics (congreso, casa rosada). Perhaps the Topic missing is Science, what do you think? Tell me if you think there are any other Topics I should add.
  • I want to start using it now!
    Well, Let's do it!
That was quite a lot to say in the end. Martín (saying/doing) 15:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I have one small doubt, best described with Category:High-importance Argentine articles. Should this category directly contain High-importance every-topic articles and high-importance every-quality articles, or should these be two different sub-categories? Of course, this little thing doesn't delay the use of the tag for the consolidated topics. Mariano(t/c) 08:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article titles, routes, laws

If no-one objects, I'll follow policy and rename Ley Sáenz Peña to Sáenz Peña Law. Same with others (I think Argentine Law 1420 should be Law 1420 (Argentina)). I renamed Generación del '80 for this reason too.

Does anyone have a good citable source for National Routes? We have a gaping hole in that area. Same goes for important (historical) laws. Just a topic for you to think about when you run out of ideas for new articles. ;) —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

http://infoleg.mecon.gov.ar/ is useful for more recent laws and decrees and links to older laws that are relevant, which may be the important ones you're after.
The WP:UE issue is important. I've been meaning to turn my attention to the Universities, which are a mess of English, Spanish and a mix of both (University del Salvador??). Martín (saying/doing) 19:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alberto Ginastera

Is there a reason why the article about the most important and famous Argentinian composer of the 20th century (or probably in all of history) is given "low" importance in the rating scale? This seems ignorant. Badagnani 00:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably the person who tagged it has not a wide knowledge on the subject. Please, first read Wikipedia:WikiProject Argentina/Importance, and then re-tag if you still think it should be promoted. Mariano(t/c) 07:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

Valle Medio area.
Enlarge
Valle Medio area.

Hi guys! Just a quick note to tell you that I'm not completelly lost; I'm working on map creation for our articles.

I've been gathering data and testing different software for it, and I'm arriving to something. Unluckily I don't have access to all the information I whant, since the free data available is limited and sometimes buggy while the good one costs money.

Nevertheless, I leave a map I created to show you what can be done, and hope to hear comments from you guys. This example is to be seen from near, since it was a lot of information, but that can be quickly changed. It was created with Quantum GIS and The GIMP, both open source, multyplatform programs. Mariano(t/c) 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Never thought you could get lost. :) I need to get my hands on that GIS (the GIMP I already have, oscórs). What do the tiny numbers mean? I like the idea (you know I love maps and all sorts of geo-stuff!). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The tiny numbers I presume you mean the national/provincial routes. Dotted lines are railways, dark-brown Department divisions. Sadly it puts a tag on every single segment of the line, but you can remove it and place hand-put labels. You are more than welcome to download the QGIS siftware; I can send you all the shapefiles (data in a certain format) that I found, the ones I created from the originals, and the standarized projects for QGIS.

Nevertheless, I would like to set some standars before we start furiosly uploading maps, so they don't have to be changed afterwards if something changes. Also, it would be good to create map of areas that can be placed in several different articles instead of a different one for every single little town/stream/whatever. Mariano(t/c) 06:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

No es por ser aguafiestas, pero me parece que ya estamos llegando demasiado lejos. Desde ya traducir Aurora al ingles es WP:SELF, pero no importa tanto; ahora, hacer los mapas me parece un poquito mucho, a menos que pongas como referencia "guia YPF 2005", que ojalá acepten. —Argentino (talk/cont.) 16:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Maps are essencial to an encyclopedia, and I'm affraid the can't be just borrowed from other publications. There are programs to project maps from geographical information, so when we talk about creating a map, we are not currently talking about creating the data, just setting the colours, zoom, and labels for the existing information (usually in shapefile or raster formats). Thus, it can't be really considered WP:SELF. As references I would put the source of the data files. Where did you think came all the maps we use? check Wikipedia:Maps and Wikipedia:Blank maps and Mariano(t/c) 06:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First two

OK, so I made 2 maps (actually two versions of the same one: political and topologycal), but I'm not completelly satisfied, mainly because when zoomed out (thumbed) they are not really usefull. Perhaps I should try doing lower resolution maps with bigger letters and thiker lines. What do you think? You can check them at Image:Map-Northern Patagonia-Argentina-political.png and Image:Map-Northern Patagonia-Argentina-topologycal.png.

Also, I'm not sure what areas should we cover, and at what scale: Patagonia is scarce, but some provinces are true bee-nests regarding cities/routes/divisions. Mariano(t/c) 13:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SVG

Hi Guys. You know the vouge in Images is currently the SVG format. For those wishing to create/edit SVG files to be used in the Wikipedia (or elsewere!) I would like to recommend the GNU multiplatform Inkscape. It takes up some space, but it's quite cool and easy to use. You might be also interested in raster to vector conversion software. See ya! Mariano(t/c) 08:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Finalmente terminé, despues de arduo trabajo, un mapa de mi Patria como Dios manda. Úsenlo —Argentino (talk/cont.) 21:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

O juremos con gloria morir

[edit] Hello from Turkey

Hi people! I started this Boyoz article on a pastry that is very popular in Turkey, especially in İzmir. Turkish sources affirm that it is a product of the Spanish culture and a similar pastry can be found in Argentina, Chile, Peru and Mexico. Can anyone confirm this and if it is the case, can anyone bring any details or improvements. For example, I made an affirmation on the signification of a reportedly Spanish language word in the article (boyose), although I don't speak the language. Best regards. Cretanforever

That is very true. My wife is Judeo Spharadic and she loves them, most of Sephardic Jews in Argentina know them and it is very common in their diets. They are usually made with spinach and cheese fillings, I haven't tried them any other way yet. Regarding the etymology you are correct but the spelling is wrong, "Bollos" is the Spanish word to designate bundles or packs. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 23:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
It's nice and moving to get such a confirmation from the other side of the world:) What a journey for one pastry, isn't it? :) In İzmir, we like boyoz plain, without any fillings. There are people who prepare them with cheese and spinach, but they are less commercialized in any case. I update the article according to the information you gave me and leave a link for "Bollos", if ever one of you writes an article on it. Best regards. Cretanforever

[edit] Irc or another comunication channel

Hi all, I think it would be nice to set up an irc channel for the WP Argentina effort. It's not difficult and it's more inmediate to get together. If there is consensus, I can try to manage it. Greets Deoomnisgloria 14:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. I've never used IRC, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. We need to leave a record of important conversations here for everyone to see, though, so as to be accountable to other users when we reach some important agreement. That is, let's not "move" this talk page to #wpargentina. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Support. I've used IRC for Wikipedia and it works great. —Argentino (talk/cont.) 13:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Support. Not sure if that usefull, but it couldn't hurt! Mariano(t/c) 14:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 16:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] William Brown

Hi Folks! I notice there's a WP:AR banner at the top of the William Brown (admiral) article, and thought it might be a nice idea to bring it up to FA status in time for his 150th anniversary in four months' time. Could more people review the article and make suggestions for improvements before it goes to FAC? -- Arwel (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Giardino

Hi, everybody! I want to tell you all that I have created my fist Wikipedia stub! It's Villa Giardino. Please visit, correct, expand. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Krazykenny (talk • contribs).

You can list your newly created articles at WP:ARNB. Don't forget to sing your comments in Talk Pages with ~~~~, which is automatically translated into your username plus date-time. Welcome, and good wiking! Mariano(t/c) 13:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Argentinidad

Los invito a participar de Argentinidad, un proyecto wiki que usa el mismo software que wikipedia, y por ende funciona exactamente igual. Es una wikipedia de la argentina con un punto de vista patriótico-nacional.

Aquí se podrán crear artículos sobre la cultura, geografía, economía, historia, gente y demás de la Argentina, con la condición de que el punto de vista NO sea neutral, sino argentino . Este no es un lugar para la militancia política o social, sólo para escribir y "hacer algo". Para eso estamos, para los que nos cansamos de que insulten al País y ver como el mundo de nosotros ríe. Siempre se dijo, "hay que hacer algo" pero nadie lo hizo. Es dificil hacer algo, nadie por sí solo va a levantarse un día y transformar a la Patria en una potencia mundial, o expulsar a los ingleses de las Malvinas, pero no por eso se va a "hacer nada". Espero que te unas al proyecto, cordialmente

Andrés 02:10 19 nov 2006 (CET)

I regret that you feel it is necessary to have a wiki that presents an "Argentine point of view". On most topics I think Wikipedia does an admirable job of being neutral. If there are articles on the English Wikipedia which are an insult to Argentina, I am not aware of them (Argentine humour may come close in places, but most countries have jokes told against them; see for example New Zealand humour).-gadfium 20:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree whith gadfium: the greatness of the Wikipedia remaings in the fact that it`s a multicultural, neutral and all-human-no-matter-nacionalities proyect (somewhere I read that wikipedia it`s just like the "Gallactic Enciclopedy " created by Asimov in the Fundation trilogy). The simple act of create a wiki proyect based in the argentinian chauvinism, nacionalism and self pride unshaped the core of the wiki ideal itself. (I`m Argentinian and i`m proud of it , but i can see the defects of the great mayority of us, the argentinians) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rodrigo Illarraga (talk • contribs).
I believe that Andrés is just trying to set a wiki-formated blog on Argentina. Which is nice, but has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Mariano(t/c) 11:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Argentina

I stepped in to help out with Portal:Argentina in April, but I was never planning to become the principal maintainer. I would like someone else to volunteer to take over running the portal. Please reply at Portal talk:Argentina.-gadfium 02:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Project on Mercosur

Greetings, I just wanted to let you know that I reserved a spot for Project Mercosur. It is basically a wikiproject on Mercosur and the countries that are part of it. Anyone interested please join, there's plenty of work to do. --Wesborland 23:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Falklands War

I've put it up for peer review here, and it was suggested that I find some Argentines to help balance out the article - it seems to have a definite British slant to it. Any help in improving the article is appreciated. Thanks, RHB 16:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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