Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/GeneralForum/2006ArchiveQ4

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edit · changes

Welcome - to our October 2006 – December 2006 GeneralForum archive

Archives
pre January 2006 January 2006 – March 2006 April 2006 – June 2006 July 2006 – September 2006 October 2006 – December 2006
Current GeneralForum
updated 19 October 2006 — (changes • edit)

1 Referencing and novels
2 Scanning pages and copyright
3 Tagging talk pages and assessing articles
4 Chapters
5 Are book covers still allowed?
6 Category:Uncategorised books
7 summary of Tom Clancy's Net Force

Referencing and novels

Say I am quoting critism of a book, eg. critic saying that the book-A was XYZ and supporting this claim by brining a quote from another book by the same author, book-B. Would it be enough to list in the notes something like this:

The novel allowed the author to express her frustration with her dog, a tension that could already be seen in her earler book X in which she wrote I am tense.¹

(Then in the Notes section)

¹Jones pp23, quote referenced to Author ABC Ch3 etc.

(And then in the References section list the book by Jones, including all details, but not the book ABC. The logic behind this being that ABC is not really a reference in itself, plus, the person who is editing the article, never actually saw the book ABC).

???? If you go to To the Lighthouse look at notes and references, note that in the list of references are books by Woolf although that is not where I actually got the quotes from. ShaiM 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

One or two responses.

one of the basic rules of referencing is you always quote where "you" got the material from. You may say from "X" , quoted in "Y". But you need to give full details.
where at all possible give pages numbers, or at least chapter refs etc.
Also edition information is significant as often the material changes one edition to another. If only in the pagination.
Another convention is that the "footnote" is normally slightly fuller when first used and shorter subsequently. This is especially true when any ambiguity is possible.

Trust this helps :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. However re. your last point, I thought it might be more appropriate to use a short description (eg. Davies p23-4, as opposed to: Davies, R Title Edition info etc) due the dynamic nature of editing. Ie. another reference to the book may be made earlier in the article at a later date. I thought it might be enough just to have the full citation in the Reference section.ShaiM 03:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Scanning pages and copyright

I've got a book that has a facsimile of the title page of the orginal edition. Is it permisable to upload it (after scanning) and what sort of tag should be attached to it (re. copyright status)?ShaiM 03:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Tagging talk pages and assessing articles

Wikipedia Assessments within AWB. Click on the image to see it in better resolution

Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.

The plugin has two main modes of operation:

Tagging talk pages, great for high-speed tagging
Assessments mode, for reviewing articles (pictured)

As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.

For more information see:

Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 14:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Chapters

I have been looking at The Chronicles of Narnia individual book articles. Some of them show chapter listings and some don't. I asked here if the books should have chapter listins and was refered here. Is there a standard about listing chapter titles?--roger6106 03:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally I see no value in a listing of chapter headings. This is not included in our standard for articles. There might be the odd occasion when there could be a benefit to this but for now I can't think of one!. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Are book covers still allowed?

There has been a situation where the book cover for the semi-nonfiction work Cosmic Trigger I: Final Secret of the Illuminati was removed, apparently because it was felt posting the cover of a book violated fair use. I think this is ridiculous, but considering that Wikipedia users appear to change their interpretation of the copyright rules whenever the tide does, I have to ask the question -- are we still allowed to include book cover images with our Novels articles? (Incidentally in previous rants on this subject I've made the prediction that Wikipedia will eventually ban all images; I've actually seen people espousing the virtues of the German Wikipedia which has actually done just that; it's one of the dullest sites on the net now. I hope English Wiki doesn't go the same direction.) 23skidoo 13:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the consensus is that book covers may only be used to illustrate an article on the book in question -- since Cosmic Trigger doesn't have an article, maybe the editors felt there was no rationale for the cover. Do you have a link to a deletion log or some correspondence regarding the deletion? TheronJ 14:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with 23skidoo on this one a picture is vital to gaining and retaining interest. If the copyright industry ever intended the silly debate we keep having here they may all go out and shoot there collective feet. I can sort of understand keeping the cover images to the novel articles themselves but only just. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now that I can see the article, it makes sense. You're clearly in the right, 23. This looks like a mistaken impression by the user who uploaded the original cover image. User_talk:Wiki_alf#Picture_licensing. TheronJ 16:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

No disrespect intended to the user who misinterpreted the rule, it's just that I really do see zero consistency with regards to the use of images on Wikipedia so it really would not have surprised me to learn that the rules had changed again regarding book covers. So I thought I would check, just in case. 23skidoo 17:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This surely isn't a discussion for us, is it? If Wikipedia removes book covers, it'll do it globally and remove the fair use options. Until then, we soldier on. --Sordel 18:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Just on a related note, there is currently a discussion going on at Talk:Frankenstein#Images about removing the book cover from that article because the poster claims it violates fair use to use book covers and constitutes "a free ad" for the publisher of the edition illustrated. Someone has suggested replacing the book cover with an image of Mary Shelley as well (though under the fair use rules for people images they can't be used for such things - though granted it's probably easy to find a public domain image of her). I've tried to set things straight, but it might be worth watching this discussion as this is the sort of thing that could lead to exactly what I'm concerned about. 23skidoo 21:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Uncategorised books

Please note the creation of this category - novels will be put in here too if they are found in Category:Category needed, so this may be helpful and relevant to this wikiproject. Aelfthrytha 13:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)