Wikipedia:WikiProject Dinosaurs/Image review/Archive June 2006 - October 2006

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Dinosaur Image Review Archives June 2006 - October 2006 Current Image Review Page Guidelines borrowed from WikiProject Dinosaurs's frontpage for lack of a better thing Criteria for using an image: Any image that is anatomically accurate within known constraints. If image is included for historical value. In these cases the image caption should explain that it is an outdated reconstruction. Historical interest images should not be used in the taxobox or paleobox, but preferably in a section of the text discussing the history of a taxon. Criteria for removing an image: Image differs appreciably from known skeletal elements. Example: If a Deinonychus is reconstructed with four fingers. Image differs appreciably from implied skeletal elements (via bracketing). Example: If an oviraptorid known only from postcranial elements is reconstructed with teeth, a feature made highly improbable by its phylogenetic position. Image differs appreciably from known non-skeletal elements. Example: If an image of Microraptor gui lacks primary feathers. Image differs appreciably from implied non-skeletal elements. Example: Nomingia should not be depicted without feathers, since a skeletal feature (the pygostyle) and phylogenetic bracketing (more advanced than Caudipteryx) imply that it was feathered. Similarly, Ceratosaurus should not be depicted with feathers, since a skeletal feature (osteoderms) and its proximity to Carnotaurus (extensive scale impressions) imply that it was fully scaled. Image pose differs appreciably from known range of motion. Example: Theropod dinosaurs reconstructed with overly flexed tails or pronated "bunny-style" hands. Exception: If the range of motion is debated in the scientific literature, as is the case with sauropod neck position. Approved images: Images that have been approved by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Dinosaurs team can now be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Dinosaurs/Image review/Approved images.

Contents 1 Pachycephalosaurus by Tbc2 2 Avaceratops by Punk18 3 Parasaurolophus 4 New photographs 5 More new images 6 Megalosaurus 7 Photos of models 8 Suchomimus 9 Plateosaurus 10 General 10.1 Ears 10.2 Generic Silhouettes 11 Chasmosaurus 12 Acanthopholis 13 Promised Natural History Museum (London) images 14 Gastonia 15 More potential images 16 Minmi paravertebra 17 Achelousaurus 18 Acrocanthosaurus 19 Afrovenator 20 Alamosaurus 21 Ankylosaurus 22 Oviraptor 23 Antarctosaurus 24 Lesothosaurus 25 Megalosaurus 26 Callovosaurus 27 Oviraptorinae 28 Images from Paris 29 Monoclonius & Centrosaurus

[edit] Pachycephalosaurus by Tbc2

After advise of Dinoguy2 and after I uploaded some old sketches I made when I was a kid of which at least one of them was not anatomically correct, I'd like to hear some comments on the body proportions and pose of a new one I made yesterday evening: image.
It was a rather quick and quite small sketch, have to keep that in mind if I'd make other sketches. If the spikes are too small or too big, there must be another Pachycephalosaurid that looks more like the sketch than the 'regular' Pachycephalosaurus :), so hopefully it can be re-uploaded with another name. The head or parts of it can easily be made smaller or bigger. Tbc2 10:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avaceratops by Punk18

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a301/ZukoPunk/76.jpg

I'm not use to putting pictures up yet. So please excuse my noviceness. That is a picture of a Avaceratops

Are you the author of this image? If not, as I mentioned in my comment to the image of Callovosaurus, If we do not have an approval from the copyright holder, we cant use any image unless its not copyrighted. Have you any information on its copyright? --Dudo2 14:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parasaurolophus

I have also drawn Image:Sketch parasaurolophus.jpg the day after that. Tbc2 16:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Your Parasaurolophus is absolutely gorgeous. It definitely gets my vote, and, from what I can tell, appears to be anatomically correct. It's also quite a striking drawing.--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Like the drawings lots, good work! - Ballista 20:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New photographs

Hello Project - I've taken a few photographs at the Oxford Uni NH Museum. I've uploaded them to a sub-page: User:Ballista/images/OUMNH to elicit your comments, before blasting photographs all over the project, that might not meet the Project's approval. Please comment asap. Thanks :-) - Ballista 05:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Awesome! These are (mostly) really great. I'll discuss each one individually on the page itself, but I do want to say right now that I'm immensely jealous, as the nearest dinosaur museum to me is about a four hour drive. You've taken some lovely photos (and a few not so lovely). OK, I'm headed over for commentary right now! :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 05:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Alright, I've made my comments. I think at least 20 of them should definitely go up. I'm not sure what the status of those prints of the paleontologists from the 1800s are: they look like they could be copyright-protected (the prints are old, but what about the matting and text?), but I don't know, and thus didn't review them at all. Of the remaining photos, you've taken some nice ones, Ballista. Well done. If my comments seem overly picky, it's possible that's because I recently left the field of professional photography, and my employers were quite stringent on "image quality". You may have just singlehandedly about doubled our number of recent photographs. We won't have to rely so much on outdated illustrations from before 1923. Thanks again for these awesome contributions, Ballista. :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 07:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You've removed any possible copyrighted material from the paleontologist prints, so those should be good to go, too.--Firsfron of Ronchester 20:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this last comment - OK - but how should I caption them (e.g. Richard owen article definitely could benefit from extra image)? - Ballista 20:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Name of Person (Year of Print), eg., John Doe (1805)?--Firsfron of Ronchester 16:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More new images

Hello Project - I've taken more dino pics (& non-dinos too): User:Ballista/images/OUMNH2 I had also put some up from the weekend, at: User:Ballista/images/Charmouth Heritage Coast Centre June 2006 Comments (pos or neg) welcome. - Ballista 00:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Megalosaurus

I have quite a few potential images for Megalosaurus - before I upload, please look at User:Ballista/images/OUMNH & User:Ballista/images/OUMNH2 & give opinions. Spawn Man brought the imbalance of text vs images to our notice, ref. Tyrannosaurus & I foresee a similar problem (or worse) occurring here. Thanks - Ballista 20:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No feedback, so I've created a 'gallery' on Megalosaurus, so that folk can take a look - I'll put a message on the 'talk' page, too, so it turns up on people's 'watchlist'. - Ballista 17:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks great! However, one picture needs to go in the taxobox. It could be an image from the gallery, or an image from the body of the article.--Firsfron of Ronchester 04:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for feedback - This is down to others to decide, as I'm 'too close'. - Ballista 03:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos of models

Hi - is there any mileage in photographs like this? The models are sold by the Natural History Museum in London and bear the stamp of the British Museum, so are reasonably 'authentic'. I just set them up in an open-air situation.

• 

  

  Brachiosaurus model
• 

  

  Diplodocus model

- Ballista 06:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

While I appreciate the trouble you went to, they just look like toys to me. It reminds me of something you'd see on Uncyclopedia more than a real encyclopedia. My vote would be against this, although I don't know how the rest of you feel. I could be persuaded, I guess, if there was a good argument for their inclusion. --Firsfron of Ronchester 16:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Toys they are, indeed. However, I wondered if there might be an argument for inclusion, to show what is believed to be the appearance of the beasts in question. No offence taken if folk hate the idea and it wasn't much trouble to take the pictures - just an experiment. - Ballista 17:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want the opinion of some other people: I'm not enthousiastic about it either. They don't look encyclopedic, but "toyish". You tell me if this and this article look like they were written by serious, (semi) scientific people or by a kid with toys. I should stick with photographs of fossil remains and realistic sketches. Tbc2 17:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Those look like rejects from a Gumby episode. I can't believe they're actually used in WP articles, even if they're not on the English-language editions. And in the taxobox, no less! Thanks for the links, Tbc. *shudders* I think we can all agree the British Museum models are better than these, but I'd still like to steer clear of toy-like images used in articles, unless no other suitable images can be found. In the case of both Brachiosaurus and Diplodocus, either Jurassic Park or Walking With Dinosaurs Fair Use images can surely be used (where appropriate) to indicate what they looked like in real life. Are there dinosaurs you have models for, Ballista, which have no WWD or JP images?--Firsfron of Ronchester 17:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course I admit the models of Ballista are more lifelike, but this is what you eventually going to get when you start accepting toy models. I would draw a line and say "no". By the way, those images aren't the worst ones: I deleted Image:Archaeoceratops_colorsketch.jpg from the es:Archaeoceratops article (yes, in the taxobox) and started a deletion request on Commons: [1]. Extra votes for deletion are welcome. Tbc2 18:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I voted over on Commons. That picture should never have been uploaded. --Firsfron of Ronchester 22:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh my gosh! I just caught a glimpse of this one:

I cannot believe someone is seriously uploading these. --Firsfron of Ronchester 21:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

well you should read the explination. the guy is making a cartoon on flash macromedia. he doesnt pretend to make it real... by the way his cartoonh would be in flash macromedia and named Dinosauria X.. naaa does it help to know other languages? ;)--LadyofHats 21:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I read his explanation a while ago (I understand Spanish) and for me that still definitely did not justify his uploads... And what about "images" like ms paint made ones or this one: [2]? No cartoon drafts, I guess Tbc2 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

ok that one i will not comment about.. i mean one thing is to upload it for other propouse.. but to post it there.. :P oh man he has bad taste --LadyofHats 21:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

ok i found the guy, he is 12 years old. i left him a mesage about the pictures. i hope he gets to understand -LadyofHats 22:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree fully with deletion of such photographs - it is only because there are some out there, that I offered these. No loss to me to reject these. If this has helped tp clean up other articles, great! - Ballista 22:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

These are certainly better than Tbc2's examples. And if we had no other pictures available of how they looked, I'd definitely consider sticking these up, as a way of showing what they looked like. However, in the case of both of these dinosaurs, we can use WWD or JP images, as least in the popular culture sections. Also, it's highly unlikely that Diplodocus was solid elephant gray and Brachiosaurus was solid green: reptiles and birds of today usually sport at least a little variety of color, while these are monochrome. Lambert's Ultimate Dinosaur Book illustrates many dinosaurs using models like these, to great effect, but each model is colored, with realistic (although entirely speculative) shading.--Firsfron of Ronchester 04:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If there were to be mileage in this, still, I would consider re-doing with a 'speculative' colour sheme. However, I sense that it would be against consensus. (BTW does 'speculative' mean to paint spectacles on them???????????????? [OK, I'm not that daft, really, just conjured up a lovely image in my facetious mind]) - Ballista 04:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hee! Please, no spectacles, although it is a lovely image. I'm not sure if you'd be going against consensus, per se, as only two of us made any objections. Dunno where the rest of us are (aside from Dinoguy, who has already said he can't be around much). I'll send out some prompts, because your idea at least deserves some consideration, and a lot of these images are languishing for lack of attention.--Firsfron of Ronchester 08:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suchomimus

Hi, I've just drawn a Suchomimus. Is it ok if I place this in the taxobox? It was drawn after a mounted skeleton (the skeleton has the jaws more opened), so body proportions should be right. The next one will probably be a Tuojiangosaurus. Tbc2 17:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice job on the shading. However, Sucho looks unbalanced, like he's about to tip over. In this image, he is bending down, but doesn't quite look balanced. --Firsfron of Ronchester 22:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Torso is too long, that's why he looks tipsy. Sheep81 22:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup, I think you're right. Also, the angle he's standing at seems a bit awkward.--Firsfron of Ronchester 22:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly what I thought: unbalanced and the torso seems too long, however this is exactly how the skeleton is. To avoid anatomical inaccuracies, I based this drawing on a photograph of a mounted skeleton (photo by Sereno): [3]. So about the "torso is too long": there's really nothing I can do about that as the skeleton is like this. The only thing I changed was making the opening angle of the jaws smaller. The angle he's standing is the one of the mounted skeleton (and I assume that's a pose approved by Sereno), I can try to make him stand more upright if that's want you want. Tbc2 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're right. I've never seen that mount before. Huh. Just looks wrong, but... if that's how the bones are, what are you going to do? I'm fine with the picture now that I've seen that mount, but if you want to experiment with poses that maybe look a little less awkward, be my guest. Sheep81 08:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem with the drawing is the perspective. The mount photo is looking towards the animal almost from the front. You don't really get a sense of this in the drawing, so the legs end up looking really short and puny. I'd reccomend modifying it into a lateral view, using a good lateral skeletal drawing (such as [4]) for the leg proportions. Then it'd be perfect! Dinoguy2 20:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plateosaurus

I have also just added a (rather quick) Plateosaurus: Image:Sketch plateosaurus.jpg. Tbc2 02:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This is almost perfect. You got the flattish, lozenge-shaped head right. The tail should perhaps be a little thinner in the middle, but assuming the rest of the tail is short because it's far from our line of sight, I guess the length is okay. I'd like to see his stomach a bit bulkier (because right now he he looks too much like the love-child of Anchisaurus and Plateosaurus), and the front "hands" are a bit off. There should be five fingers, with the longest finger closest to the inside, 2nd and 3rd fingers slightly smaller, and tiny 4th and 5th digits (claws only, really).--Firsfron of Ronchester 02:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I made him a little bulkier: Image:Sketch plateosaurus bulky.jpg, but I didn't exaggerate, because the chest of Plateosaurus is really small compared to regular sauropods for example. I also thinned the tail a little bit, as far as the skeleton permits (which was very little as this dinosaur has a heavy tail). I will rework the hands tomorrow (I drawed 3 claws with only 2 really visible). Thanks for the comments, Tbc2 03:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're quick! :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 03:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added two tiny fingers/claws: Image:Sketch plateosaurus bulky.jpg... ok like this? Tbc2 16:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty nice. It took me a moment to notice the two extra claws. But that's just about perfect.--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General

Some great-looking drawings coming thru' - please don't take my lack of comment as lack of interest - far from it, it's purely down to lack of expertise in passing any form of judgement, either artistic or technical. 'Silence' is the best friend, at such times. I'm really appreciative of the great effort being put in, nonetheless. - Ballista 03:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I know exactly how you feel, Ballista. I've basically been using Lambert's Ultimate Dinosaur book, which has over 500 photographs and drawings of skeletons and models, as a guide. And even that's a bit outdated, now, with the recent feathering of Dromaeosaurs, etc.--Firsfron of Ronchester 03:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ears

have you ever wonder why dinosaurs have no [ears]?LadyofHats 16:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC).

You'd really want to pat the cute guy's head :) Tbc2 16:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Generic Silhouettes

would be posible to create generic silhouettes of certain sorts of dinosaurs. so that they are used on the pages where there is not enough information for a more detailed image? just to give a slight idea without compromising. somthing like a image onsauropodsfo the [Adamantisaurus], and [5] .. dunno is a simpleidea but would like your opinion.-LadyofHats 14:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. The old version of The Dinosauricon had this kind of thing. One silouette for each family should probably cover it...Dinoguy2 20:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chasmosaurus

I have just drawn a sketch of Chasmosaurus, inspired by a skeleton drawing in "The horned dinosaurs" by Dodson, so body proportions should be right. I drawed the postorbital, recurved horns a bit smaller. I guess I can do that as only the horn cores are preserved so their exact length is unknown, correct me if I'm wrong here. Image:Sketch_chasmosaurus.jpg Tbc2 19:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Woah, this is excellent! Really nice job. You got the frill down exactly right: rounded near the bottom, squarish on the top, but with two bulges near the extreme top of the frill. The animal is shown in a realistic pose, with no unbalanced look to it, the three major horns are all depicted quite accurately, and you remembered the 'cheek horns', too. Great job! :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 19:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! As I thought to get comments about the two large horns, I also made a version with smaller horns: Image:Sketch chasmosaurus2.jpg, for your information. Tbc2 20:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Great drawing, now I think that it was inspired by the C. mariscalensis which is know (as of 2006) renamed.....Agujaceratops....Cas Liber 00:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Some comments about this can also be found at my user talk. Tbc2 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acanthopholis

i have been joining material to do the acanthopholis. but the i discovered there are about 5 dinosaurs with this name. on a book ( my only dinosaur book i have) this [ilustration] but in the net i have found more of the acanthopholis horridus. and yet no bones or suposed bone structure. so if i do it will be an interpretation from interpretations. Do you have any other material about them?-LadyofHats 11:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, Acanthopholis is known from pretty sparce material (nomen dubium), so not a whole lot is known, and I salute your courage in trying to do one of the lesser-known ones.

First off, do not trust the image you have provided. I'm not sure how old that image is, but it's not accurate. The sinuous back, shown like that, is completely innaccurate. The feet are also wrong, and should be large and heavy, with splayed toes. The head should be more potato-shaped. Acanthopholis was related to Edmontonia, so if you can't find any good images for Acanthopholis, you could maybe substitute Ed, remembering Acanthopholis is about 1/2 to 2/3rds the size of Ed.--Firsfron of Ronchester 12:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Acanthopholis is only known from very incomplete specimens, so most of the skeleton is hypothesis only. The most complete ankylosaurs I guess would be Gastonia and Minmi. They will have images of bone material somewhere abouts on the web. If you want to go that way we can help hunt down best images. Cas Liber 12:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Bwah! Those links probably won't help her, Cas, unless she is to draw an Asian singer, or a disambiguation page. Plus, Acanthopholis was probably a nodosaurid, which is why I recommended Edmontonia instead. Minmi probably predates the ankylosaur split, and our current Wikipedia article on Gastonia (the dinosaur) calls it a polacanthine ankylosaur.--Firsfron of Ronchester 13:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • i wouldnt call it courage, but more a naive desire to help :P. and i didnt chose it so to say. it is just that it seems all dinosaurs that start with A are rather complicated..LOL. :)

After all you are the experts on the group i am only an ilustrator ;). i found quite some images of "Edmontonia" , "Gastonia", "Hylaeosaurus" and even a "Anoplosaurus". and i indeed can see the similarities. but then what makes the acanthopholis diferent from them.. apart from the size i mean.LadyofHats 21:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well that's the thing. Ultimately we don't know about acanthopholis, it is mostly guesswork on what it is related to....:) Anyway, if you want to do acanthopholis, I would give it cheeks and a stiffer tail. cheersCas Liber 21:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

well i was posting it to see if you knew :). in any case in the inter i started making the Edmontonia, since there is also no image from it on wikipedia. [here] you can see the sketch and give me your opinion. About the "Acantholopis" well i would really like to do an image, would be posible to add a text on the page to say that the form sugested in the image is purely hypotetical? LadyofHats 22:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC).

Your Edmontonia is looking really good, Lady. As far as Acanthopholis, as long as you used a nodosaur and not an ankylosaur, you shouldn't wander too far from what it might have looked like: There is no question that Acanthopholis horridus wasn't a nodosaur [6]. It's certainly possible to base illustrations on it, then, using the known remains along with what's known of other related nodosaurs. --Firsfron of Ronchester 00:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree, looks great. I will try to find some references on the material-cheers Cas Liber 02:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I like it. Nice drawing! Tbc2 16:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

ok some few questions to what is known... did it had this bone shild over the hips like the Gastonia? or more just like little pieces like the Edmontonia? did it had this horns behind and below the eyes like the minmi or just a masive skull lke the Edmontonia? was it probable that it had a mace on the tiail, ot at least bone like point? if you dont know at least give me a guess. LadyofHats 14:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC).

It was a nodosaur, and thus was more closely related to Edmontonia than to Gastonia, which comes from a different branch of the family, or Minmi, which seems to have predated the split. Nodosaurs lack the clubbed tails seen in many ankylosaurs.--Firsfron of Ronchester 16:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

ok, this is my last try :P what do you think about this -LadyofHats 12:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It is a nice image, but the feet appear to me to be too long. A bit shorter, perhaps?--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Not your 'last try', I hope. I hope you mean your 'latest try'. There's a song: "Don't give up on us baby ...." - Ballista 19:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Promised Natural History Museum (London) images

I have started to display my photographs from the natural History Museum, London. More to follow. Please go to: User:Ballista/images/Natural History Museum, London - Comments and help please - Ballista 05:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Some are really dark, and some are really great. Editing can fix some of the dark ones. The ones with support cables are somewhat distracting, but that can be fixed. A few just need cropping. The Troodon could go up right now, unless there are objections about no feathers. Cas selected one Diplodocus pic for that page already. I'm amazed you got so many! And that, for the most part, they weren't duplicate animals from the other museums! Iguanodon manus #1 is a better image, I think, than the one taken at the other museum. The only problem is that the Iguanodon article would need some expansion in order to add even more photos to it, IMO.--Firsfron of Ronchester 19:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gastonia

[here]is the starting sketch. if you have any changes let me know.LadyofHats 10:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Lady, I didn't see this until right now. It looks really good to me. I don't forsee any problems as yet. Please continue. :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 04:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • it is ok, i also have problems following the changes sometimes. [here] there is an advance, yet i have some questions.
    • the bone surface over the hips, was below the skin or above, like a turtle?
    • as it is clear that it had not a lot of enemies would be fair to use a more bright selection of colors? something like [this] or [this] or at least like [this one]? LadyofHats 11:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• • since everyone seems to be busy i just keep working on it [here] is the tentative final version.. what do you think? LadyofHats 18:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC).

That's awesome. You got the beak right, you got the feet right, and the spines and scutes look terrific. Gets my vote. Not sure why no one else has responded. --Firsfron of Ronchester 19:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure looks really grand. However, I'm keeping out of any 'accuracy' issues on images, as stated before - please don't mistake that for lack of enthusiasm and support for all this great work of yours, Lady. - Ballista 05:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks great LoH! Gets my vote as well.Dinoguy2 01:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More potential images

See User:Ballista/images/OUMNH3 - Ballista 09:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minmi paravertebra

hi, [here] is the initial sketch. even when i would have a question. the horns it has on the hips. do they go there? [here] and [here] are on the hips [here] and[here] are on the tail [here] and [here] there are not there at all. so what do you think? PS. i also posted on Acanthopholis LadyofHats 15:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC).

It seems you/we have struck gold when it comes to Ankylosaurs! I think you've done a really nice job on all of them, Lady. :) If you plan to create more ankylosaur images, in my opinion, it might be best to "flip" some of these (horizontally) at the end of the process. That way, all of our ankylosaur pages don't end up looking similar to one another. About Minmi: It did have spikes around the hip area. Don't trust any restoration where they are missing [7]. And definitely do not use that fifth picture you linked here. Your current image looks pretty nice.--Firsfron of Ronchester 17:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to ask, Lady, how did you come to our project? Don't get me wrong; I'm really thrilled that you've made so many great images for our project. I just want to know how you knew we were so desperate for images (and we are!); did you find out from someone, or just happen to notice us?--Firsfron of Ronchester 17:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

i will flip the minmi but is hard to not make similar what is indeed similar. what i found funny is that of the dinnosaurs the more i do the less acurate seems to be the whole thing. from the Acanthopholis i have desided to make a siluete. it should give the idea of what shape it mazbe had without pretending to invent unacurate information.

as how did i landed here, it was with "random article". after i finished the blue baby sindrom and all linked heart problems i didnt got to find an interesting project on the "requested images" so i was just loosing time cliking random article ( and wondering what kind of strange things people write on wikipedia). there i got into the article for Prenoceratops.. and i thought in giving it a try. Later on when i found that it wasnt as easy as i thought i searched for the author of the article.. that would be you. as for why i am still here.. you told me ".. You may or may not know that Wikipedia:WikiProject Dinosaurs is in desperate need for accurate dinosaur illustrations. We've got more than 1,000 articles, most of which do not have even one illustration.." and i thought.. well why not, they look like dragons after all..lol  ;P --LadyofHats 20:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

So it was random. Wow, that's pretty cool. And I'm glad you've stuck around for a while, despite the often confusing situations surrounding these dinosaurs. I bet after this, you'd have an easy time working as, say, a police sketch artist: "He was tall! No, short! Fat, but also somewhat thin..." ;)--Firsfron of Ronchester 21:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• here is a link to a minmi drawn on an Australian Stamp release Cas Liber 21:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Australia Post Dinosaurs
  • here there is an advance. -LadyofHats 23:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • have been busy with some work. will probably remain busy for another week. but i havent forgot you. i will finish the dino as soon as i can. LadyofHats 21:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I have finished it. but i am not yet sure about the color. here are the first and the second option. wichone you like more? LadyofHats 14:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC).

I prefer the first one, because he looks a little tougher. The second one looks a bit doe-eyed, and the scaling on the face shows up much better on the first image. Neat! :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 16:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the second one more. The less contrasting colours have a more "real-life" look to me. On the other hand, I have no problem with the first one either, since both are great, as usual ;) I think it would be a good idea to upload both versions to represent both alternatives at least in the ankylosaur gallery on wiki commons. --Dudo2 20:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

So i use the first one on wikipedia and the second for commons.. right?LadyofHats 21:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You could upload them both to commons, and then people could choose whichever they wanted for each language edition of WP. :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 21:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the 2nd one as it is different to the stamps I was using for ages. Both great though. The first reminds me of my little golden dinosaur book when all dinosaurs were monochrome tan-coloured I recall. Both great though :) Cas Liber 22:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Purely aesthetic grounds, I prefer the second image. Great work on both, though! - Ballista 04:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, clearly I'm outnumbered, here... :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 05:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

then it id desided. the second one is on the article ;)-LadyofHats 10:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Achelousaurus

it is the next on the list. the images i found are basically on here. does anyone of you have other i could use as resource? maybe a skull diagram or skeleton or so. whatever you have will be ok -LadyofHats 13:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I found some. Here is a drawing of achelosaurus' skeleton, here a drawing of a skull. Hope it helps --Dudo2 18:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Great that is exactly what i was looking for. here is the sketch. do you have any correction? the 5 fingers infront and 4 behind is ok right?-LadyofHats 23:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure on Achelousaurus but probably yes, since this pattern is found in Triceratops, Styracosaurus, Centrosaurus and other Ceratopsids.--Dudo2 00:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

ok and once again you will have to chose between color1 or a more traditional color2. so wichone will it be this time?-LadyofHats 20:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the second one (call me conservative :) --Dudo2 20:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the first one ...as the markings are more marked on the frill. One hypothesis is that the frills were for interspecific identification - thus if the critter has gone to all the trouble of growin' a frill, it wouldn't be muted beige/brown/grey but brighter colours (orange/red anyone?)Cas Liber 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Woah. Those are really good. I think either one might work. However, is that a fifth toe I see on his front leg? Should be 4 in front, five in back.--Firsfron of Ronchester 23:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? As far as I know and according to my refs, Psittacosaurus had four fingers on the front leg, which is said to be an "unique trait among cerapsians". In every book I looked into were the hind feet of ceratopsians described as having four fingers. --Dudo2 23:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, Dudo. You're of course correct. :) I'm so sleepy today I'm not making any sense. :/ --Firsfron of Ronchester 23:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Dramatic and beautiful, as well as accurate (as far as I can tell) - either is wonderful. - Ballista 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

acording to my references it could be 5and4 ,3and3,or5and4. so i took the one that apeared mor often. as for the color since it seems you can not deside yourselves i made a color3 so, wichone will it be?-LadyofHats 09:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the third version represents a great consensus. --Dudo2 11:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Like the third oneCas Liber 18:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• is it true that they had rigid tails? someone said that on the featured candidates but none of my sources mentions it. do you have any information about it? -LadyofHats 21:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It didn't appear to me on the original image that the tail was exactly dragging on the ground. However, you have lifted the tail on your new version (the commons image), and that image is less ambiguous. I like your new improvement. :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acrocanthosaurus

the Acrocanthosaurus is the next one without an image on the list. i found more than enough material to start but i also found other things that i want to ask you.

• here is the sketch. let me know if you have corrections -LadyofHats 13:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
• [8] what is that bone in a form of an arc on the foot?
• do you need a diagram like this for something? i could do something similar -LadyofHats 11:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

oops i just realised there is already a sketch in this list on this dinosaur. so maybe i should leave this and just go to the next. :) -LadyofHats 13:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It's up to you. Any addition is welcomed, of course :) On the other hand, there are many (even pretty well known) dinos which lack any picture, especially non-theropods (Saltasaurus coming to my mind as first... or Lesothosaurus... or the ceratopsians Centrosaurus and Styracosaurus). --Dudo2 18:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Afrovenator

here is the sketch. do you have any corrections?-LadyofHats 10:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I shall refrain from commenting on accuracy but it's a great picture with really good atmosphere. - Ballista 16:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ballista. --Dudo2 18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)--Dudo2 18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Appears accurate to me. Also, I really like that you mixed it up a little, with two of them in this illustration. Neat! :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 19:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

One other thing, Lady: You've done so many great illustrations, most of which are dinosaurs beginning with the letter A. You are a great illustrator, and I would fear to lose you on our project. I worry, though, that you will eventually get bored with us, and want to move on to greener pastures, and we will be left with, say, B-Z. Someone above (was it Cas? Dudo? I don't remember) mentions there are still some really big-name dinosaurs without illustrations, such as Styracosaurus. I worry that important articles like this will never get illustrations because they're at the end of the alphabet, and it would take months, even years, to work down that far. You are, of course, more than welcome to work on whichever ones you want, in any order you want, but I would be remiss not to mention my reservations. Well, that's it. --Firsfron of Ronchester 20:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The man has a point! Yes, it'd be lovely if you could magic up some of your wonderful illustrations for some of the 'big' names, in whose articles we are very short of pictures. No pressure! - Ballista 20:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

you are the experts here. make a list of this "big" dinosaurs for me and i will follow it. - LadyofHats 23:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

There had been a list of top 20 "big" dinos on the wikiproject dinosaurs page. As for now, all of the listed dinos have their pictures except Oviraptor. Other well known dinos without a picture a are in my opinion (as I already mentioned) Saltasasaurus, Lesothosaurus, Centrosaurus and Styracosaurus. --Dudo2 00:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Dudo is exactly right. There is also a list of ~50 well-known dinosaurs here. These were dinosaurs selected for being well-known, representative of all major groups, and which will eventually be included on the Wikipedia CD. If you could do any of these that have no images, that would be really great. It's just a suggestion, and if you'd rather continue down thru A, of course that would still be cool too. :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 03:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to work on a drawing for Oviraptor, but after a couple false starts I dunno when I'll actually sit down and finish one. If someone else were to pull one together (one that's NOT actually Citipati! ;) ), it'd be very cool.Dinoguy2 03:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

From the list of ~50 well-known dinosaurs almost dinos have pictures except a few. The four dinos I mentioned above and Oviraptor are probably the best known of them. Then there are the less known Alamosaurus, Ammosaurus (which may or may not be synonymous with Anchisaurus, that already has a picture), the doubtful Bruhathkayosaurus, the problematic Monoclonius, and Sauroposeidon with Therizinosaurus, both known from very incomplete remains. --Dudo2 09:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

here is the final drawing, when you have no corrections i will post it tomorrow. LadyofHats 19:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That's my favourite one so far. (Just a little nitpick: the big guy's middle toe is missing some colour ;P) Mgiganteus1 19:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

will fix it before posting it-LadyofHats 21:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alamosaurus

from the 50 well known dinosaurs. it is a disaster i must said :P there are not 2 images that have the same proportions and fron the images of skeletons. meaning this and this they seem to come from 2 diferent animals. the hips have diferent construction and the neck have diferent proportions with the rest of the body. does anyone has a book or something where a more fiable image is to be found? -LadyofHats 20:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the second link has two reconstructions that show a diplodocus like animal (if not Diplodocus itself!) and diplodocus is far from being related to Alamosaurus. The first link shows a reconstruction that is far more accurate. --Dudo2 21:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I checked several web-search machines and I have to agree, it't really a disaster. On the other hand, I found a site containing three images of Alamosaurus by the famous illustrator John Sibbick [9]. The image on the top and the two on the bottom are his. The only inaccuracies they have (since they were drawn couple years ago) is the tail being dragged on the ground (image on the top) and the necks, that are held in a too upright position. The neck position as shown on your first link is far more realistic. --Dudo2 21:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The skelton in your first link Lady looks the most accurate (I think--it's most titanosaur-like). I'd go by that.Dinoguy2 22:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

ok i do have some questions.

• here it says that it had a broad head with the teeth on the front and the nosetrills up in between the eyes. would be something like this ok?
• it also says that the front legs are shorter than the ones behind. something like this? or thisor as few as this?
• it also says that it didnt had scooped out spine, what does this means?
• it also said that they had a hard skin often with bone plates or thorns. but they do not show on the picture. should i add them ?

-LadyofHats 23:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Well, they had the teeth in the front and nostrills up in between the eyes. Here is a reconstructed skull and head of another relative of Alamosaurus, Rapetosaurus (the skull of Nemegtosaurus in your link has a slightly modified shape). The skull not really broad, but still broader than in diplodocids. As you can see, on this skeletal reconstruction of Rapetosaurus, the skull was approx. two times longer than it was wide. 2. It's true, the front legs were shorter. On the other hand, the back was still rather horizontal, than lowering towards the fron legs. Similar to the skeletal reconstruction on your very first link or similar to this skeletal reconstruction of Rapetosaurus. 3. If you meant "ausgehöhlten Wirbel" part, it means, they had solid vertebrae, not hollow. 4. It's true, many titanosaurs had armoured skin, but it seems Alamosaurus was an exception. No armour had been found. --Dudo2 12:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• i do not know weather the tails are too long, but this whole thing has been like drawing a horse and having only pictures of cows. here is the sketch, what do you think? -LadyofHats 16:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's great; the tail does not appear to me to be too long; same with the neck. The body appears quite stocky. Seems good to me.--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You've captured good 'atmosphere' again, with this sketch. Great skill & art. - Ballista 19:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Well, they had the teeth in the front and nostrills up in between the eyes." Their nasal openings in the skull were up between the eyes. Recent studies show the nostrils would have been closer to the tip of the snout, connected to the nasal openings by some kind of soft tissue structure (like a small resonating chamber).Dinoguy2 19:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Dinoguy is right (dont know why, but not I considered this study to be somewhat speculative and had to check it again...), the nostrils would look something like this or this. --Dudo2 19:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, this is a dinosaur whose front half has not been found so any skull representation is speculative. Ones we do have skulls for include Shunosaurus, Datousaurus, Diplodocus, Camarasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Apatosaurus and........some others I'm sure.Cas Liber 21:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

here it is the final version. i have clear that this whole thing is purely speculative, but i am in the hope that even to speculate there is some logic to aply...:P -LadyofHats 15:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks just fine to me... :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 06:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ankylosaurus

ok from the list of "big" dinosaurs the Allosaurus has a lot of pictures and i have found absolutly nothing on the Ammosaurus. so the next logically would be the Ankylosaurus. herethere is a speculative skeleton. and another one here yet my problem on this one has more to do with the armor. on the second image i showed you the animal has a an armor that covers the whole front, similar to the one gastonia has on the hips. no other one has such a thing. later on both on wikipedia and in here they mention that the bone armor was rather smoother and round. but in all its images it is shown quite spiky. so what do you think should be? -LadyofHats 08:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

• • can someone help me here? are they round or not?-LadyofHats 09:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

They were rather rounded and smooth. If you want a good reconstruction of Ankylosaurus (both skeletal and life appearance) there is the redescription of Ankylosaurus by Carpenter available online. I dont have the link (since I have some technical problems due to which Im almost unable to contribute to wiki or open most web pages), but its the top result for „ankylosaurus redescription pdf“ in google. --Dudo2 10:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

here is the sketch. do you have any changes?-LadyofHats 12:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! My only (minor) criticism is that the horns on the rear of the head should be broader. Here is Ken Carpenter's reconstruction from his definitive paper on Ankylosaurus appearance: [10] Dinoguy2 16:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

...and for some real fun (i.e. adding flora from Hell Creek), check this out - [11]. A cone of something closely resembling Metasequoia glyptostroboides may be fun to draw next to it. Just a thought. Cas Liber 21:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

ok, this one was taking some time here it is what do you think?-LadyofHats 11:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Like it. Different pose and atmosphericCas Liber 11:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• • will place it on the page. but still can change it when is needed.-LadyofHats 14:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cas: it's really atmospheric. Neat effect! :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 18:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks great on the page - thanks - Ballista 01:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry I was not around earlier when this image was being discussed, but I have a few points. First of all, the picture looks reall great. But I have issues with the armor. If you look at the image Dinoguy provided, you can see the armor is made up of large, discrete plates arranged in rows on the body, with smaller pebbly scales between them. Currently it is just a mass of little osteoderms. Also, the tail club is slightly off, right now you can see the pointy tip of the tail poking out between the two large masses, when actually there would have been another large mass there so that the club would be a big oval. You can download Dr. Ken Carpenter's paper redescribing Ankylosaurus here and look on page 984 for a good reconstruction. If you don't care to download the whole paper, I have cropped the image and posted it here. It's a little more clear than the one Dinoguy linked to, I think. Sheep81 21:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

ok now i have questions.

Here are some answers - someone please correct me if they're misleading or wrong. Thanks for your diligence, Lady. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what does it mean "The mandible is proportionally lower to its length,...suggesting a retention of a primitive character."? i couldnt found any example.

This is very strange English! - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It is kind of awkward, but the full quote was comparing the mandible (lower jaw) to several other ankylosaurids. The mandible of Ankylosaurus is not as tall relative to its length compared to other advanced ankylosaurids, but more like that of Shamosaurus, generally considered a primitive member of the family.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what deoes it mean "As in most ankylosaurids,when articulated to the cranium, the mandibles cant or slope lingually to accommodate the medial placement of the maxillary teeth due to the maxillary shelf...This canted position also makes the ventral margin visible in lateral view."?what is a vental margin?

It means that the lower jaw bone is sloped inwards, showing its underside from the lateral view. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Precisely what Ballista said. The ventral margin is the edge closer to the ground, which points outwards in most ankylosaurids.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what is a coronoid process?

It's a structure of the mandible (lower jaw) and internal, so not affecting a drawing - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, it is a pointy bit of bone that sticks up from the lower jaw where some of the main jaw muscles attached... but no, you couldn't see it from the outside so it probably shouldn't influence your drawing too much.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• What does it means "The facet for the predentary (not yet found) is a shallow groove along the front of the symphyseal ramus. The symphysis surface is smooth, except for a groove that splits the surface horizontally."?

This is to do with an appendage on the front of the lower jaw bone and the features described would not affect a drawing. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The predentary bone is the beak on the front of the lower jaw. It hasn't yet been found for Ankylosaurus but we know it had one. Carpenter is describing how the predentary would attach to the rest of the lower jaw. Interesting, but this articulation would have been between two bones so it probably wouldn't affect the drawing much either.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• on the figure 11 of the Cervical vertebrae, there are some spikes marked as "ns" do they go out of the skin? meaning like spikes? he seems to only have them on the neck.

'ns' stands for 'neural spine', which is the dorsal process of the cervical vertebra and no it doesn't protrude through the skin. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You have neural spines too, which you can feel if you run your finger down your spine... they are the bumps that you feel. In Ankylosaurus they would not be visible, but in other dinosaurs (like Spinosaurus) they might have been.

• what does it mean "their ribs are coossified to them indicating that these ribs were not involved in the bellows-like action of the more anterior ribs during respiration"?

It means 'co-ossified' or 'fused' to each other, so making them rigidly attached and not articulated, so couldn't move during breathing. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

When you take a breath, your ribcage expands and then contracts, because your ribs are not firmly attached to your vertebrae. The same thing for Ankylosaurus, except for the last four ribs (8 to 11), which were fused to the back vertebrae, so they couldn't flex when the animal breathed in or out.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what is a L-shaped and a T-shaped rip? i thought all rips look like C

I believe it refers to the shape of the cross-section. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what is a "M. serratus"?

It's a muscle. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what means amphicoelous?

Amphicoelous vertebrae are vertebrae in which the main body is concave in the front (anterior) and back (posterior). Compare with opisthocoelous vertebrae, which are vertebrae in which the main body is convex in the front (anterior) and concave in the back (posterior). Not a worry for a drawing. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• what means "coossified to the centrum"?

Like the rib discussion, above, co-ossified means 'fused' to the centrum. - Ballista 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• in general i get what you mean and i agree that the image is not right. but i also have my problems with the two images that apear on the odf. you see from all the armor is not the same in between them, specially the lower one seems to have a armor plate like the Gastonia had on his hips. he actually seems to have two, one on the front and one on the hips. maybe is was like the text said becouse the dinosaur was often mixed with Euoplocephalus. from waht i understood on the text the armor plates were having a pronounced keel, only on the neck and as line at the sides. a bit like the horned lizard the rest of the plates should be more rounded and rather flat. right? plus i think that it is more reasonable to think that the plates had a progresive change of size and form. and not just a simple collage of diferent forms like the one that is visible on the second image.
• i also have my doubths on the second image becouse it shows him rather slim on the front and with a round tummy. while all other images and skeletons i have got to see from ankylosaurus and family seem to have a more round bulky form.

Carpenter has done the most work on examining the armor of Ankylosaurus and several other ankylosaurids like Euoplocephalus. He believes that the plates were mostly arranged in even rows and were very flat, with almost no keel. He believes there would have been large rings around the shoulders and the hips. Also, there were kind of triangular point plates sticking out from the edge of the tail. This is his reconstruction, and of course you should take your own artistic license to some extent, but it seems very common for ankylosaurs to have bands of armor protecting the shoulders and hips, so I think that part is accurate at least.Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

i will have a second read on the pdf and make a new sketch. would be wonderfull if you help me answering my questions. -LadyofHats 12:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I look forward to seeing it. You are doing a fabulous job on this artwork! Thank you! Sheep81 22:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lady - In case it's of any help in drawing the tail club, here are two pics of Euoplocephalus, that has a similar type of arrangement. I stand in awe of what you have done, so far, with your lovely illustrations. - Ballista 04:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

any source i can get is for help. thankyou. here is the sketch. i moved the head upand made the neck shorter. i made the back legs longer. i made the shoulders a bit up. made the tail shorter and thiner. corrected the mace. and made a new arrange on the armor. .. oh yes the head is still just in sketch i have to make the skin on the side of the mouth so that no all teeth will be visible.. any corrections?-LadyofHats 09:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• any feed back? i have the feeling my posts get lost sometimes -LadyofHats 09:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The tail at least looks right. I cannot comment on the rest of the armor, having not read Carpenter's redescriptions. I assume Sheep will want to make other suggestions, but I don't know. :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 10:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks a little heaftier than Carpenter's reconstructions from the redescription paper, but the armor looks correct. The tail might need to be stiffer and skinnier for more of its length, but I'm not sure.Dinoguy2 15:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Just checked the paper--it does look like only the first third or less of the tail is flexible.Dinoguy2 15:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

here it is the sketch. i will be working on a "real" proyect next month so probable i will not be able to advance here. please be pacient i will come back and finish this when i can. -LadyofHats 12:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty good, but the tail is still unusually fat (the rest of it looks a little too bulky as well). The stiff part especially wouldn't have had that much meat on it, it was pretty skinny.Dinoguy2 20:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I like it a lot too. Like Dinoguy said, the tail could be slightly narrower, and don't forget to add some short triangular scutes on the sides of the tail. Can't wait to see where you go with this when you get back!Sheep81 22:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone. i am back :) here is the link for the fixed tail. let me know if you had any changes. on other subject. i was on paris during this time and i got to visit the evolution museum. the have thousands from skeletons from living and extinct species. something that i found anoying is that when looking at living animals i would hardly draw them like they actually would be. mainly becouse i have few or no idea about muscular volume and function. is there a good dinosaur book that explains a bit more on the subject? or at least one with enough reconstructed images to have a better idea in what i am geting in? -LadyofHats 09:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back! Your sketch looks pretty good to me, can't wait to see what it looks like colored in. Tracy Ford is an excellent artist and has some books available here. I hear they are pretty good. You can also check out this website. Sheep81 08:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• • here is the finished version with color and all. if you dont have any changes let me know to upload it in commons -LadyofHats 15:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

::Welcome back, Lady! If Sheep gives his approval (and he has), it should be fine! :) Firsfron of Ronchester 18:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm satisfied if everyone else is too. Sheep81 00:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks great, umm I thought it looked better with cheeks though, as there is evidence some other herbivorous dinos had them.Cas Liber 00:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

i added some cheeks to it and upload it.-LadyofHats 10:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oviraptor

Whipped up this Oviraptor profile in photoshop. didn't come out as nice as I like, but if it's not too bad, might still be good to use in the article? Sometime soon I'm also going to try to draw a sort of comparison chart with the different oviraptorids, sort of like the one we've got for Psittacosaurus.Dinoguy2 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Like the picture! - Even more, I like his sideburns! Good idea for the comparison chart but a lot of work ...... - Ballista 04:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would be great in the article! More like this, please! Also, a comparison showing the various skulls of oviraptorids would be great, and could be used on multiple pages! Great idea! :)--Firsfron of Ronchester 05:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antarctosaurus

here is the sketch. when you have any changes let me know. note: i also posted the sketch on the anklyosaurus. -LadyofHats 13:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a courageous effort to recosntruct such a controversial sauropod as Antarcosaurus since it is not certain how much of the type material belongs in the same taxon. On the other hand, the sketch is good except the neck seems to be a little bit too long for a titanosaur. --Dudo2 14:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

i just try to be bold. here is the image. it is dark as the one of the [acanthopolis]to show that is just speculative. but i hope it still gives an idea on how it was.-LadyofHats 14:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

added it into the article, still can change it when you want. -LadyofHats 10:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's great! :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 10:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice pic - thanks - Ballista 06:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

added the human figure under request of someone called "Yug" on commons.-LadyofHats 11:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lesothosaurus

there are some images on the net but as usual they seem to come from diferent animals. the must wide colection of images is herei also found a small skeleton here my main question is on the head form since in some is thin and long and in others rather round and short. so wichone would be more acurate?-LadyofHats 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The skull was rather short and high, lowering towards the snout - like the skull on the skeltal reconstruction of your second link. On the other hand, the skull on that skeletal reconstruction is somewhat big. The body proportions are correctly shown on the image on the very top and the green model on the very bottom of your first link. --Dudo2 18:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

here is the sketch. a couple of questions, the hands are like those of the Abrictosaurus? the whole body seems quite out of proportion to me but it would seem the whole skeleton is this way.-LadyofHats 11:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The hands were similar to the hands of Abrictosaurus. Your sketch has one error - the hind limbs had only four fingers (three fully developped and one reduced). The left individual on your sketch has his hands held in an unusual positon compared to the neutral position of the right individual. --Dudo2 11:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

i changed it, here is the advance is it ok like this? p.d. i also posted the sketch of the megalosaurus down here.-LadyofHats 14:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

looks good to me --Dudo2 14:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• • it is finished. so waht will it be color1 or color2 wichone you like the most? -LadyofHats 16:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks great! I like the first color scheme--a bit more vibrant, and the scales on the belly stand out better for a neat effect.Dinoguy2 17:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I like the first one a bit more either. --Dudo2 21:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The first one's great - Ballista 04:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the first one, too. Hey! It looks like we all agree for once! :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 06:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Megalosaurus

the article has only old ilustrations and i wonder if it would be usefull to make a drawing for it. yet i just found some partial skeletons diagrams here so you have a more complete one?-LadyofHats 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi - you are still doing good work. Thank you. I believe the top diagram of Megalosaurus is the material found by Buckland and mounted in the Oxford University Museum of Natural History (see picture in article). I'm not sure how much more material has been found, beyond what you have shown in those three pictures. - Ballista 16:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

here is the sketch. the hands do they look down or to each other? -LadyofHats 12:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

To each other, not downward. --Firsfron of Ronchester 22:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

And the hands had three fully deloped fingers, not four as can be seen here [12]. --Dudo2 23:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool! The body, I think should be more parallel with the ground and the head a little bigger (?). I just saw the french site as well. Cas Liber 01:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

i made it more parallel to the floor, even when the front one seems to be raising on propouse. i also made the heads a bit longer. here have a look and let me know what you think :)-LadyofHats 09:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me :)--Dudo2 22:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

it is finished! what do you think?. when you dont have any comments i will upload it at monday.LadyofHats 22:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. The shading is, BTW, excellent. :) Firsfron of Ronchester 01:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Callovosaurus

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a301/ZukoPunk/callovosaurus2.jpg

I found this picture, it's of a Callovosaurus. I thought you might want to use it.Punk18

This looks like an image drawn by John Sibbick. If we do not have an approval from the copyright holder, we cant use it unless the picture is not copyrighted. Have you any information on its copyright? best wishes --Dudo2 14:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oviraptorinae

Profiles based mainly on reconstructions by Jaime Headden (slightly different take on Oviraptor itself this time, that skull is in really bad shape). Almost done with the Ingeniines, just have to finish Heyuannia. Any issues with these?Dinoguy2 04:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dinoguy,

These are really great. You've really paid attention to detail, and since you placed six heads on one image, this is awesome because it means it can be used on multiple pages (four or five genus-level pages plus higher-level pages, too).

Is it possible for you to colorize these? Considering these crests were probably used for display, presenting them in black and white seems to lessen their effect, even though, as we well know, coloration is entirely speculative...

The only one I want to ask about is Oviraptor philoceratops. David Lambert's book (The Ultimate Dinosaur Book) shows several Oviraptorid heads, including this one, but shows the crest a bit more squarish than in your reconstruction, where it's quite rounded. That said, the book's from the mid-90's, so I guess new discoveries have been made since then which have altered our perception of O. philo's head-crest? I also look forward to seeing the Ingeniines. :) --Firsfron of Ronchester 06:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Amazing clarification of a very difficult 'area' - thanks - sorry to have been pretty 'quiet' for the last few days, so not seen until now. - Ballista 06:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys! The crest of O. philoceratops is unknown (it's only implied by small fragments at the tip of the snout, which is why early reconstructions gave it a little "horn" like Ornitholestes). Depictions prior to the naming of Citipati either were based directly on C. sp or were inspired by it. I've also seen O. reconstructed with a high dome as in Rinchenia. I used a much lower crest because a recent study shows O. might be the most primitive oviraptorine, so it's reasonable to guess it might have had a smaller crest than the more advanced species.

As for color, I'll see how digital coloring looks when I get a second.Dinoguy2 20:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Perfectly reasoned explanations. Thanks for these lovely images, which I see you have added to the appropriate pages. Do please consider colorization, although they really are just fine in black and white.--Firsfron of Ronchester 00:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images from Paris

some images i got on the natural history museum in paris. i have much more but will add them here as i get them on commons :)-LadyofHats 12:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Scelidotherium leptocephalum

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Elephas antiquus

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Diprotodon australis

-LadyofHats 13:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Aepyornis

-LadyofHats 13:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Phiomia serridens

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Moeritherium lyonsi

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Glyptodon asper

-LadyofHats 15:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Megatherium americanum

-LadyofHats 20:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Arsinoitherium zitteli

I know until now they have only been mammals, i also have dinnos but it takes soooo long to get them clasified and such.. :P-LadyofHats 21:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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Iguanodon bernissartensis

Tarbosaurus Bataar

Protoceratops

-LadyofHats 09:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Lady! These are really great photos! :) Thank you for taking so many. I want to comment on the ones below tomorrow, but I did want to make some comments on the ones above. The mammals are beyond the purview of this project. But I feel comfortable saying the images of Tarbosaurus and Protoceratops should definitely be added to the pages, and I see you've already added one image to Protoceratops. I'm worried that we already have a ton of images on the Iguanodon page, and any more may overload it to the point where the page is more of a gallery than an actual article. The giant bird shots (Aepyornis) should also definitely go up. :) More comments after I've slept. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 10:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

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Cryptoclidus oxoniesis

Dunkleosteus

Sarcosuchus imperator

-LadyofHats 10:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

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Eryops megacephalus

Pareiasaurus baini

-LadyofHats 12:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

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Archaeopteryx lithographica

Miacidae indet

Dromaeosaurus

-LadyofHats 13:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monoclonius & Centrosaurus

i have been looking for material on the monoclonius, yet the only skeleton i found is thisone do you have a better link? (p.s. also posted a new sketch on megalosaurus)-LadyofHats 21:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This outdated pic seems to show a Centrosaurus, a similar, closely related and far better known horned dinosaur. Monoclonius itself is poorly known. Thus, many pictures of "Monoclonius" show a Centrosaurus instead. If you dont mind, it would be better to draw a Centrosaurus (it would be easier for you since you'd have a lot of more sources  ;) --Dudo2 22:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Centrosaurus then. :)here is the sketch. still have not clear how the back feet should be. do you have any source about it?.. as for the Monoclonius i will make a silhouete. is there anything sure on how it looks like?-LadyofHats 12:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

**any feed back?-LadyofHats 09:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned when we discussed you image of achelousaurus, horned dinosaurs had 5 fingers in front and 4 on the hind legs. Several technical or even popular publications mention this (such as the Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Animals). btw, the picture looks great ;) --Dudo2 20:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • ok, ok.. i forgot it :P in any case here it is. -LadyofHats 16:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like it a lot, Lady! Nice action shot. I was a bit worried about the tail (seemed a bit long), but on reflection, I think it is fine. Nice job. :) Firsfron of Ronchester 16:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

thanks :).. oh yes here is the monoclonius -LadyofHats 17:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me! :) Firsfron of Ronchester 22:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)