Talk:Who is a Jew?

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Contents 1 Archives 2 Black people article request 3 Higher Percentage of Gays/Lesbians Found in Modern Jews -- Research 4 Ethnic Jew, redux 5 Jewish Ethnicity

[edit] Archives

• /Archive 1
• /Archive 2

[edit] Black people article request

I am a contributor to the Black People article and I am doing a study on something that is irking me about the debate on that article. I took a compromising approach, and using this article as a good example, I created an article called Who is black. Someone changed it to Definitions of black people. I am here asking the contributors here a simple question. What would go through your mind and how would it feel if someone (especially a non-Jew) changed THIS article from Who is a Jew to Definitions of Jewish people. I felt that it would be condescending and offensive to Jews to "define" instead of "asking" them this. It feels to "define" would assume they (Jews) are less than capable of expressing their complexities from their own POV, which obviously must occur for this article to make any sense. Something about "definitions" seems to smack of arrogance (esp. if changed by a non-Jew). It also diminishes the objectivity of the article as such a subject inherently implies there is no cut-and-dry way to define. What do you think? --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Dark skin was obviously noticed throughout history, but the concept of race did not exist before several hundred years ago and so Black as an ethnic idenity did not exist. And the reason the article is not called "Who is Black" like the "Who is Jewish" article, is because this article is better than the "who is Jewish" article because it provides a list of cited and varied definitions from people of different races (plus extensive criticism), and thus can have an encyclopedic title. "Who is Black?" is a question, not a title for an encyclopedia artice. "Who is Jewish" should also be changed.__Whatdoyou 15:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC) (reposted by --Zaphnathpaaneah 16:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC) from Talk:Black People

It's cowardly to half-way do something. Someone changed the title to "controversies" of Jewish identity. It's like they don't want to offend Jewish contributors with ignorance, but they have no problem offending Black people with the same ignornace. Bravo to the cowardice! --Zaphnathpaaneah 16:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The title is a translation of "Mihu Yehudi?" (hebrew), the classic formulation of this question. The title has been disputed several times and discuss at length. It is a strong consensus that the title is correct. This article disscuss not only the definiton of who is a Jew but disscuss the discussion itself. Jon513 12:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Great, I couldn't agree more. I am applying this principle on the Who is Black article which is a translation of the english phrase "Who is black?", yet someone wants to change the title to "Definitions of Black people". I am sure the people here would be offended to read that as the title of this article, yes? --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

That is an idiotic (I'm sorry) analogy here. "Mihu Yehudi?" which translates into English as "Who is a Jew?" is different than asking "Who is Black?" in English twice. —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Higher Percentage of Gays/Lesbians Found in Modern Jews -- Research

I'm wondering if anyone has come across any serious scholarly research that has examined the fact that Jews tend to be quite overrepresented amongst the gay and lesbian populations in the modern World, particularly in the USA and Western Europe. I have read about this on certain Jewish websites and in a couple Jewish newsletters/newspapers, but have yet to find any academic research on this matter. I know that the worldwide Jewish community is generally very gay/lesbian friendly, but I am looking for information/statistics that have has confirmed the noticeably higher incidence of homosexuality/lesbianism in the (mostly secular) Jewish population. Thank you for any information that you can provide. --205.188.117.73 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I'm afraid this sort of question is a bit outside the scope of this article. You might want to address this sort of inquery to Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of one more off-topic remark: probably only among non-Orthodox Ashkenazis, and probably not a higher percentage of gays, just a higher percentage who are out. I'm sure you'd find the same among Unitarians and any other relatively open and accepting communities. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Jew, redux

Okay since non religious people can be considered Jews because their family practices it I'd like someone to answer my question. Tell me, if a black family converts to Judaism and have a kid does that make the kid an "ethnic Jew"?

If the mother was Jewish (even by conversion) when the child is born, the child is Jewish. If the parents converted after the child is born the child must accept his conversion when he or she becomes of age. The fact that they are black is inconsequential. Jon513 17:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't make the child an "ethnic Jew", but it would make the child a Jew, certainly. Mad Jack 17:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Color is entirely beside the point. The Ethiopian Jews are black.

Halakha and the prevailing concept of ethnicity don't sit entirely easily together in the matter of conversion. Halakha defines how one becomes a Jew; the prevailing concept of ethnicity doesn't generally allow for a person becoming part of an ethnic group, although some transitions happen more easily than others. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Judaism, the traditional religion/ideology, simply doesn't have or recognize a concept such as an ethnic Jew. Moreover, liberal and secularized branches of Judaism tend to be particularly sensitive to discrimination issues. Hence, there simply is no notable school of thought within Judaism or Jewish culture that has an "ethnic Jew" concept for which such a statement would hold. Such an attitude may possibly describe some outsiders' views of Jews (sources, please), but it doesn't describe Judaism's or Jews' views. Best --Shirahadasha 09:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Ethnicity

Perhaps it is important to note that Jews have not interbred with their host countries, thus preserving a large part of their original Semitic ethnicity. --Smnioffe 02:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)