Talk:White American

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Contents 1 General 2 AFD debate 3 Split/merge from White (people) 4 Basketball World Cup. US vs Argentina for Bronze medal. 5 What about Hispanics? 6 White as "Anglo" versus Hispanic, with non-white connotations. 7 Origins of Germanic people/ Nordic theory 8 The Ralph Nader image 9 The third paragraph 10 American Race 11 Poor America 12 White America Article 13 Deleted arbitrary map.

[edit] General

I've substantially redone the article, based on discussions with user Bfraga. I've retooled it mostly as a discussion of the concept used by the US Census. Other uses of the term -- such as the generic "white" -- are treated well in other articles.--Citynoise 17:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

No real Encyclopedia would have an article with this title, and even if they did, the content would not be so awful.

So do something about it. Edit and improve it, or propose its deletion. Don't just whine anonimously.--RicardoC 01:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AFD debate

This page was turned into a redirect to White (people) after this AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Split/merge from White (people)

I have moved a large section of White (people) into this article; it deals with historical attitudes toward whiteness in the United States. Melchoir 18:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Basketball World Cup. US vs Argentina for Bronze medal.

Needless to say how some/many Americans die to present themselves as a white country, while like so much to present others as non-white, for example all Hispanics and all Hispanic countries as a rule. Watch the game on the 2nd of September 2006. It is very funny to see white America play versus non-white Hispanics. By the way, they won the bronze medal. Tomorrow is the final: Spain/Greece. Veritas et Severitas 13:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Hispanics?

Often I have to see how the term Hispanic is used in the US with non-white/non-European connotations or as if Hispanics were just newly arrived aliens in the country. In fact they were there much before and have been there much longer than the rest of Americans.

Then we have the following:

1. Hispanic refers obviousy to a huge group of people from different countries.

2. These peoples are bonded together by their language and culture.

3. These peoples come from countries with very diverse racial make-ups and which derive from the Spanish Empire, which by the way included almost the entire US, which was for centuries part of this Empire under the name of New Spain. Yes, very funny, is it not? Almost the entire US were part of New Spain!.

But the most funny thing is the following:

Hispanics are not considered white as a rule of thumb in the US, as if the US was a country whiter than some Hispanic American Countries like Argentina or Uruguay, which is not.

Then we have the mother country for all Hispanics, Spain.

So, what is up with Spaniards, are they Hispanic or not?. Are they white or not?.

Well, they are Hispanic all right, in the same way that the English are Anglos.

So, we have a group of Hispanics, who are responsible for the name itself (Hispanic comes from Hispania and Hispania is Latin for Spain) who were the colonial power in the US for centuries and who happen to be white/European. White? Well, some people say that Southern Europeans are not that white. Let us see:

If you are not familiar with genetic anthropology note that R1b is the oldest and most common genetic family in Europe, and where does it show the highest concentration? In Spain.

But if you do not have enough with Haplogroups, and want more genetic loci tested, let us see:

2 3 4

Well, this Oxford article takes into acount 8 genetic loci, quite complete indeed. Spain is refered to as IberiaS.

What is the result? Again, Spain has the highest concentration of Native European genes, called Basque genes in this study and Iberian genes in other studies, followed closely by the Britons, the Portuguese and the North Italians.

Conclusion:

The fathers of all Hispanics happen to be the whitest/most European people in Europe. As a result, there are a lot of Hispanics that are whiter than those who think themselves as the genuine white people/European-Americans in the US. And all this according to serious, rigorous genetic science, not to concepts and ideas that are sometimes close to mental retardation. Veritas et Severitas 20:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC

Oh, please. The Spaniards are not "the most white" race in Europe. That does not even make sense. It defies logic in numerous ways. Besides, "whiteness" is such a subjective thing. Face it, no amount of genetic research can determine how "white" you are.

Well, quite a rigorous and scientific contribution. It seems that you just do not like scientific findings because they contradict your preconceived views of reality, do you?. Well get used to these new findings, because they are coming fast at you. What about the other comments, they are also my invention, right? By the way, please use a USER NAME.Veritas et Severitas 01:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well actually Race is a sciological concept and not a biological phenomenon. In the present day US, all Europeans, whether Anglo Saxon, Saxon or Slavic are White. There have been many theories on who is more European than who over the centuries- see Nordic theory for an exmaple. However, in the US there are currently no discriminatory guidelines being to differentiate made between a Czech, a Swede, or a Spainarid in regards to that individual's race. Remember that this is a sciological construct that has little or nothing to do with actual biology. BTW: Britons are not one people; Celtics, Welsh, Scotish and Anglo-Saxon are all different ethnic groups-the Anglo Saxon are for example the descendants of the Saxons and Jutes. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 18:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't a lot of this article about how the term is used and not about genetics? As a European I find the distinction between people of Spanish descent and people of, say, Italian descent (who, from all I can gather, are regarded as white--though I may be wrong) baffling. Admittedly many, if not all, racial groupings and their social consequences are equally baffling, so this is a slight point; however, this is essentially the thrust of my argument. Proving that people of Hispanic descent score high on a "whiteness" index seems to me beside the point as one ought not to discriminate against anyone, wherever they sit on such an index, and yet people do. Pointing out that Hispanics are really "white" is just yards away from saying "don't discriminate against them, genetics proves they're like us--save it for those people over there".

Which, of course, is not what you're saying, but may be why it's worth having an article on what people consider white to mean, as that's what has an effect. The genetics perhaps belongs in an article defining [caucasian]. Andrewwyld 01:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting point. The distinctions are sociological and for a long time during US history being White has meant facing fewer obstacles en-route to success. As being White used to make being successful easier, people have always tried to portait themselves as White. Of course, things have changed and Italians as well as Spaniards are as much part of main stream American society as any "Teutonic" or "WASP." As for Hispanics, racial inequity continues (to a lesser degree than in the past though) and Latinos tend to earn less than their White countreparts for doing the same work with the same qualifications. Hopefully that will change soon, but until then I, as a Social Scientist, would not be suprised to see some Hispanics or other minorities trying to make themselves appear "Whiter." As for genetics, they belong in the article on Caucasiod race as that is one of the few biological "races." Regards, Signature^brendelHAPPY HOLIDAYS 03:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White as "Anglo" versus Hispanic, with non-white connotations.

More interesting stuff about the term Hispanic. As I have already expressed, the term Hispanic comes from Spain, and is related to Spanish people. In the US the term white has often been used with “anglo” connnotations, that is, coming from England, and then, from the British Isles.

OK, let us see further:

As I have already pointed out, in addition to the many studies that have been previously done pointing in the same direction, like the following one published by Oxford University Press, in which surprising genetic similarities can be seen between Britons and Spaniards (Spain is IberiaS) , in a genetic piece of research that takes inot account up to 8 genetic loci, including mitocondrial, autosomal and Y-Chromosome DNA. See:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03

Now we have another Oxford book whose reference has been just published two days ago and is appearing all over the British Isles in different newspapers, in which the origins of most Britons seem to be getting clearer and clearer and astonishingly very different from what it was previously thought.

It is also interesting in relation to the similarities between the Celtic areas of Britain and England.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece

I canot open the entire article from here, but it continues like this:

A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles. "Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.

You can also see this other newspaper:

[1]

In short, it seems that Spaniards had acquired a taste for boat bulding and ocean going much before they arrived in America.

It also seems that the term Hispanic, with the sense of relating to Spain or the Spanish, is in fact much broader than it was previously thought, and it actually should include the English and other Britons. Life is full of surprises, is it not? Veritas et Severitas 14:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Consider that celts are not Anglo-Saxon, a term that refers to the descendants of the Angles, Saxons and Normans who invaded Britannica. The manner in which the term "White" has been and is used in the US has and perhaps continued to be wrong by genetic terms. Race is far more of a soial and genetic phenomenon. The fact that many English are related to Hispanics does really not suprise me. Few people actually look into the migration of European peoples and thus often only know half the story behind a racial term or the genetics of "race." Concerning racial termonology is seems, that the conotation and denotation (as defined by scientific evidence) often differ. Anyways, great and interesting research. Signature^brendel 19:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of Germanic people/ Nordic theory

Text removed by Rex:

"One needs to note that Teutonic peoples originated in what is modern day Southern Sweden, Denmark and northern Germany, making discrimination against Germans based on the Nordic theory in the 19^th century logically implausible."

The ultimate origin of the Proto-Germanic peoples is Denmark and Southern Sweden. I believe there are some maps which show a tiny bit of the German coastline, but that isn't Northern Germany. Then, if I read correctly, it says that what nativists around 1800 thought of Germans was incorrect because of the Nordic theory? Rex 20:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. First, yes there are some maps that show parts of Schlewsig Holstein, which extends onto the penninsula of Denmark. The idea is as follows. In 19^th century America, Europeans seens as non-Germanic "Swathy Whites" (e.g. Italians, Irish etc...) were discriminated against based on thought and logical related to the the Nordic theory. Meaning that nativists at the time based their White-on-White discrimination on the nordic theory. It was, however, logically not possible to use the nordic theory in order to discriminate against Germans. (See the map to the right) The nordic theory would allow for the logical discimination of many Irishmen, Scottsmen and espcially Southern Europeans. To quote the Article:

"Benjamin Franklin proposed a clear distinction between "white" Europeans and "swarthy" Europeans, stating that immigration to the newly-born United States should favor the "white" Northern Germans and Englishmen rather than the "swarthy" Southern Germans, Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes."

Now, his definition of White, makes those whom he considered non-Germanic, "Swathy White." This logic, however, cannot justify discrimination against Germans, as many are part Germnic peoples that pre-date the Anglo Saxon people (e.g. Saxon themselves)-Franklin mention this when he expressed his desire for more Saxon to immigrate to the US. Overall discrimination by nativists in the US was based on the logic of the Nordic theory (that's why Benjamin Franklin is mention in the Nordic theory article). I hope this clarifies what the statement you delted meant. That said, there is probably a better way to express the ideas that I just mentioned, so I would be grateful for any suggestions. Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what the Nordic theory is about? Rex 21:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, why? (How would you describe Benjamin Franklins differntiation of White and "Swathy White") Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not with Nordist theory, apart from being a ridiculous theory it's also over a centurly later.Rex 12:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well. Yes it a ridiculous theory, but so were all race theories in 18^th and 19^th century. Here is an overview of discrimination in the US at the time:

From the 17th century on, as Northern European countries became more powerful, Northern peoples began to argue for their own superiority. Benjamin Franklin proposed a clear distinction between "white" Europeans and "swarthy" Europeans, stating that immigration to the newly-born United States should favor the "white" Northern Germans and Englishmen rather than the "swarthy" Southern Germans, Russians, Swedes, French, and Italians.

Americans during that time distinguished between non-teutonic, non-Germanic whites and swathy whites. The paralells between the nordic theory and nativist discrimination become even more evident when looking at the map on the nordiv theory page (above). Franklin may have very well influenced the later rise of the Nordic theory. Now, logically, if you disciminate against non-Germnic Europeans, you would have hard time disrciminating against most Germans-that's why Germans in early American were put in two categories-those from Northern Germany (namely Saxons) and southern, swathy Germans. How about we state something about "Nordic theory-like discrimination" instead of plainly stating nordic theory. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 15:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The Nordic theory also makes some outrageous origin claims, I suggest we do not refer to it at all and just not Germans from the South were discrimated. Rex 16:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, there is never really any logic behind discrimination. Hatemonger usually isn't rational, much less based on Anthropolical fact. The whole idea of swathy whites and teutenoic whites is ludicrous, especially as most English people are related to the French people. The thing about discimination against Germans in early America is that it is quite difficult to explain. Germans have been coming to North America since 1608. Those who arrived in the 17^th century were the same who dsicriminated against new German arrivals in the 18^th century (as I said hatemonger isn't rational). Germans usually faced less discrimination than non-Whites, the Irish, or Italians. Especially as many are protestant and of Saxon dissent- something Franklin considered when making up his mind on whom to hate and love. So with Germans, it dependet partially on where they were from and when they came. Some Germans were old stock, some weren't. Some were seen as teutonic White, some as swathy white. Of course Franklin totally contradicts himself when he wants to disciminate against Swedes, who are obviously a Germanic people-more so than the English. Anyways, I tried to explain the complicated equation on which discrimination of Germans dependet in a single sentence (I should have probably known that that wasn't going to work). The idea of Anglo-Saxons (or Saxons) being superior to say, Franks, Normans, or Jutes on the basis of being more Germanic is complete nonsense. Yet, this false notion was present in America for well over a century. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 16:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I just think it isn't logical to prove Benjamin Franklins views wrong with the Nordic theory, which is total crap as well.Rex 21:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, no. I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not advocating the nordic theory or what Franklin said. I am saying the Franklins views are very similar to the nordic theory. That's why I mentioned it-the crap in the nordic theory is similar to the crap Frankling wrote. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 01:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Still I think the Nordic theory goes a bit to far to be compared to Franklins views. I mean I doubt Franklin thought the "Nordic race" originally came from Tibet.Rex 11:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not saying Franklin's writings and the nordic theory are exactely the same, I was using the nordic theory to describe the discrimination based on North/South European that was reflected in Franklin's writings. The more I think about, using the nordic theory was probably not the best choice. Signature^brendelNow under review! 11:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There must be other ways of explaining or comparing Franklin's reasons for discrimination.Rex 13:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's probably going to take me a while to come up with one, unless you have suggestion ;-) Signature^brendelNow under review! 19:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Not really, no.Rex 20:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Ralph Nader image

I have removed the Ralph Nader image from the infobox, as it is listed as a fair use image, and as a result, is not legal to use here. User:Zoe|(talk) 06:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Signature^brendelNow under review! 06:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The third paragraph

The third paragraph begins with Perhaps because white Americans often identify simply as white and tend not to identify themselves as a sub-group of Americans. . This is not a sentence. What is this trying to say? User:Zoe|(talk) 06:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed quite an unclear phrase. While I didn't write it-I think I can explain. Many White Americans do not think of themselves in racial terms as much as do some other racial groups. In other words, Whites often don't see themselves as White Americans but simply as just Americans. This supposedly is opposed to African Americans or Hispanics for whom race is an allegedly greater part of their identity. I hope that clears things up. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 06:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Race

Is there an American race? My father's side of the family cannot trace its ancestry out of America, only going as far back as Georgia. It seems that classifying him as Southern American or Appalachian might be more fitting. 7.2% of American ancestry is listed as simply American on the graph on this page; is this implying these people see themselves as belonging to a Anglo-American race? Is 400 years not enough time for a Anglo-American race to have evolved, or at least coalesced? Personally, I see a biological distinction between myself and my European origins. Terry 19:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No officially there isn't an American race and if you're White you are most likely of European origin (See European American). If you can't trace your father's side of the family back to Europe than you may use your mother's side. As for people reporting American as their ancestry, most of them are probably unable to trace their ancestry beyond the US (much like your father). As for Anglo-American; that is just a synonym for White-even though few Whites (8%) are acutally Anglo. Anglo, which is short for Anglo Saxon, means that your ancestors would have to be Saxon, Angles, Normans, and Jutes who migrated to Britannica during the dark ages. So, to answer your question, Whites are the descendants of Europeans; Whites who report American as their ancestry often do so simply becuase they are unable to disclose their full ancestry. BTW: the biological distinction between Americans and Europeans in nonexsistant, as most Americans have has ancestors coming from Europe as recently as the early 20^th century, besides two or three centuries are not enough time for genetic differences to develop. I hope that answers your questions. Regards. Signature^brendelNow under review! 01:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor America

This article is poor in so many ways. First of all the USA has to use terms as white and black because it has not true social structure. If this new country had a true class structure based on blood lines, instead of the color of skin this ridiculous article would not even be up for a debate.

Historically this article does not discuses those who were not considered white during the 19th century and early 20th century, and are not now for political purposes now considered such.

--Margrave1206 18:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

True, the definition of White has evolved. The US does have a social structure which in the 19^th and early 20^th century included race as one of its core components. Today its more based on economics than anything else. Many sociologist actually like to beleive that the US has quite a complex de-facto social structure since it is one formed without actual guidelines and thresholds. Truth is, all complex societies must have an advanced social structure in order to function, inlcuding the US. You are right, however, in your assertion that the US lacks a formal social structure. Signature^brendelNow under review! 19:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White America Article

This article needs to be changed in such as way as to correct it. Some part of it sound as if it was placed together in a 1950s America child's textbook. Furthermore a great deal of this is subjective and there are not enough facts to support it. I could understand if this article agreed with the regular backward and uneducated view in which Americans view race. Moreover it lacks the capacity to even do this effectively. There is no historical proof, nor scientific study outdated or any other kind to back up there claim. Only the USA could make such as mess as this manner of thinking. This article needs to be altered greatly. There are to many ideas in this article mixing views of the 19th,20th, and 21st centuries in such a way to slant and give a bious view to readers.

Questions?? Jews are now white, however is it not true that in the early 20th cen. they were not consider so? The one drop rule in America, if you have one drop of African blood in the USA it would make you black, by this rule how many people in the USA would be then considered black?

I am finding that a great deal of terms of being used incorrectly, this page need work.

--Margrave1206 04:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. One of the biggest problems with this and the white article is that people continue to cling to defunct 19th and early 20th century concepts and ignore 21st century advances in the anthropological field that comes hand in hand with genetics. Veritas et Severitas 15:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted arbitrary map.

France in the same region as Scandinavia etc. Veritas et Severitas 02:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you make some suggestions as to how we should improve the map. I think it provides users with helpful information where in general White Americans come from. France was colored the same as Scandinavia becuase it may (of course all this is arbitrary) fall under the "Teutonic European" category. Another possibility, the most objective IMHO would be to use linguistic attributes for colors. One color for Germanic Europe, another for Latin Europe, another for Slavic Europe, etc... What do you think? Signature^brendelHAPPY HOLIDAYS 02:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that if we want to make differences in Europe, they have to be as you say, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, etc. One caveat is that the article is about a racial concept. We do not live in the dark ages anymore. Population genetics tell a very different story than the traditional ones: Here you just have some examples about the ancestral relationships of Europeans. We cannot continue to speak about races here, with the connotation that race has in terms of shared ancestry, and continue to ignore 21st century genetic anthropology, population genetics and genetic archeology, that for the first time is providing scientific proof for shared ancestries in Europe and in the world:

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:wS6DZf6b-RUJ:www.roperld.com/HomoSapienEvents.htm+r1b+europe+map&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=6&client=firefox-a

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/10/1964/FIG6

Or this one:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03

Veritas et Severitas 15:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

So you'd be okay with using lingustic differences? We could use geneology, but race in the US is a sociological concept rather than a biological one. Biologically, there is really only one race-the human race. Slight differences can be found among certain races, caucasoid, mongoloid, etc... I think as this article deals with a social concept using linguistics would be the most ideal way to determine the coloring on such a map. Regards, Signature^brendelHAPPY HOLIDAYS 03:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As said, I think that the linguistic concept could be an acceptable solution. I also think that a genealogy map would be a necessary complement, since race has both social and biological connotations in terms of ancestry. Veritas et Severitas 13:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)