Talk:Wheat gluten (food)

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Contents 1 Sjschen's suggestion that this article be merged with Gluten 2 Terminology problems 3 Bran puffs 4 More on Japanese preparation 5 Chai pow yu 6 Tanpaku(shitsu) 7 Big gluten ball? 8 Preparing gluten from wheat flour (OR)

[edit] Sjschen's suggestion that this article be merged with Gluten

I see your point but this merge isn't a good idea on several counts. First, "Gluten" is the glutenous chemical component of any of several grains. "Mian jin" (seitan) is made from the gluten of wheat only, and specifically it is a food product made from that gluten, which is powdered, then reconstituted, kneaded, cooked, etc. Thus, this is similar to having a WP entry for "sugar," and another for "rock candy" or "cotton candy," as a distinct food product made from that raw material. Badagnani 10:10, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

jsled 28 September 2005: -1 for merging; Badagnani's argument is convincing.

September 29 2005: Another thumbs down to merging; seitan is made of gluten but that's where the relationship ends. Gluten is a protein found mainly in wheat; seitan is a food.

No this is a distinct foodstuff. It would be like putting Corn dog into corn. --Rakista 00:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that seitan is distinct food-stuff. The reason suggested the merge is because "gluten" is commonly used traslation from Chinese to English in regards to Seitan. I personally have also never heard of Seitan ta describe gluten foodstuffs until then. Seitan in most cases, is almost completely made of gluten. I agreed finally with not merging the two article on the basis that gluten as a compound should be remain separate from the foodstuff (seitan) that is made from it. Your comment on corn dogs and corn is a poor analogy at best, and makes me somewhat doubtful whether you knew what you were talking about. --Sjschen 23:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

One compromise solution would be to move the article to "Wheat gluten" (rather than gluten), which would encompass seitan, mian jin, fu, nama-fu, whatever Koreans and Vietnamese call it, etc., with headings describing each type in detail and redirects from "seitan" and "mian jin." Or just leave at seitan, with an explanation of why that term isn't known/applicable in most of Asia, where the wheat gluten foodstuff originated (except in the macrobiotic subculture). Badagnani 00:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Too tell the truth, if most Westerners or English recognize the term "seitan" as gluten foods, I'm personaly happly to just leave the title as it is and write some huge explanation about how the term is faulty, so on so forth. This is okay since language does not have a one to one mapping (incense and frankincense are the same thing in german). Just cut and paste Dforest's conversation with you into the article. If the title must really change I really want "Gluten (food)". Wheat gluten implies that the gluten can only come from wheat when truth is, gluten foodstuff just needs to be made of gluten. -- Sjschen 00:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This was also what I was thinking. I've never heard of edible gluten being made from anything other than wheat, although it is true that the White Wave brand seitan has other things, such as chick peas, listed in its ingredients. This brand of seitan is not as "endlessly chewy" as the kind I've eaten in places like New York Chinatown's House of Vegetarian restaurant. Info on exactly how the macrobiotic seitan differs in composition or cooking from Chinese traditional wheat gluten is hard to come by on the Internet, but the other participants in the discussion seem to know a lot about it. Let's all work together to get this explained fully and clearly. Badagnani 01:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In that case chick pea flour was used to cut the rubberiness of the gluten. There are actually 3 main forms of chinese gluten. Chinese ‘’kao fu‘’ (烤麩) to my understanding, is Japanese seitan. It's like bread made of pure gluten that has been steamed. In chinese markets the are sold as small blocks. These are diced up and absorbs the cooking liquid like a sponge. It also has the texture of a wet sponge. The other two forms are both just call "mian jin" (麵筋) but one is wrapped against itself and steamed while the other is torn into small bits and fried into puffy balls. They are both eaten aftenrbeing cooked in soups or stewed in broth. The latter is the one that is most commonly seen canned in jars and sold in markets. I recommend eating congee with it. Sjschen 01:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The more I think of it, the more I want Gluten (Food) at the article title. However, I leave the decision up to everyone.

This could work. Are you sure it shouldn't also have wheat in the title, though? Badagnani 01:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I‘m cool with wheat. :) Sjschen 02:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, any objection to moving this article to "Wheat gluten (food)" -- of course with redirects from all the subtypes? Badagnani 02:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology problems

This article has some serious terminology problems. Mian jin is not seitan. The word seitan was coined in the early 1960s by George Ohsawa (born Nyoichi Sakurazawa), the founder of macrobiotics, specifically to refer to his recipe for gluten meat. According to the OED, seitan was first cited in English in 1974, and attributed to his wife Lima Ohsawa:

Seitan: 1 tablespoon of sesame oil, 1 tablespoon minced gingerroot, 1 to 2 cups shoyu, 5 cups cold wheat gluten, separated into small pieces.

L. OHSAWA Art of just Cooking 85/2

It also is not the Japanese term for gluten. In fact, the word is virtually unknown in Japan, and is not found in Japanese dictionaries. In the rare case the word is used in Japanese, it is written in katakana, as though it were a foreign word, i.e. セイタン. According to Oxford, the etymology is uncertain, but perhaps "Japanese sei- to be, become, or -sei of the nature of, made of (e.g. in shokubutsu-sei (adjective) vegetable) + tan- (in tanpaku(shitsu) protein".

I think the information about Gluten meats in general should be moved to something like Gluten meat or Gluten (meat analogue) and this article should be pared down to refer to the macrobiotic product for which the word was coined. Mian jin should be moved to its own page.

Seitan, strictly speaking, refers to a product based on Ohsawa's original recipe, containing gluten, shoyu (soy sauce), ginger, and sesame oil. Sometimes it is used colloquially to refer to seasoned gluten in general, some of which comes from completely different traditions and has quite different flavors and textures. If we use the neologism "seitan" to refer to all seasoned gluten, it will open a big can of worms. Dforest 18:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

This is all completely new to me, and, I suspect, is not known either to most health food enthusiasts in English speaking countries, many of whom eat lots of seitan. Your expertise is greatly appreciated. What is the Japanese term for "wheat gluten meat," by the way? (I'm guessing the kanji are the same as those for "mian jin." My vote is for keeping all the gluten meat products in ONE article, with separate paragraphs for the various types. They are all related foods, in the same way that various tofus are related to one another (see the tofu page, listed under its Japanese name, which includes about 20+ sub-types of tofu). Badagnani 19:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

To answer your question, for gluten meat, the Japanese use a katakana version of the English term, i.e. グルテンミート (gurutenmiito) [1] or very rarely, セイタン for seitan. [2] (Note the katakana in quotation marks!) Both are extremely obscure, as are the corresponding products in Japan. I agree there should be an article or section describing these gluten foods, but there is a big problem lumping them all together under seitan. Seitan describes, strictly speaking, the macrobiotic product invented by Ohsawa, and more generally a type of flavored gluten with a chewy, meaty texture. The traditional Japanese gluten is called fu. The fresh type, nama-fu, is used in the vegetarian Buddhist cuisine of Japan, shōjin ryōri. Fu comes in various forms, the most common of which is a dried form, resembling croutons, which are added to soups. It does not resemble seitan in the slightest.

Seitan is a neologism that 99% of Japanese have never heard of. It is misleading to call it "the Japanese term for wheat gluten". It is equally misleading to claim that seitan was invented by the Chinese. The gluten in Chinese Buddhist cuisine might well be considered a precursor to seitan, but they are not the same thing. It would be something like conflating the "flat round of dough dressed with olive oil, herbs, and honey baked on stones" served in Pompeii with pizza as it exists today. Dforest 11:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

All good to know. What is the character for "fu" and "nama-fu"? Are they the same as for "mian jin"? I think this would be the equivalent food as "mian jin" in Chinese Buddhist cuisine. The dried, crumbly product you describe is, I believe, a 20th century invention called TVP ("texturized vegetable protein"), which has become ubiquitous in East and Southeast Asia and which many people, both in Asia and western nations, mistakenly call "tofu," or "seitan," but it is neither.

Japanese fu is not the same as TVP. The dried from more resembles very hard bread. It is light and airy, and when put in soup takes on a soft, chewy texture. It's most commonly sold in cut form, which looks a lot like croutons or rusk. Dforest 09:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, now I know what you're talking about. I ate this for the first time in October in Beijing; it's amazing. The texture was similar to light rice noodles (that's what I thought it was when I saw it in the food court, until the lady told me it was mian jin) or cloud ear fungus, and it almost resembled tripe. I had never had gluten with this texture before. Unfortunately it's completely unavailable and unknown here in Ohio, USA. Badagnani 09:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the terminology, all of these wheat gluten-based foods are related, likely originating in China as a meat substitute in Buddhist vegetarian cuisine, and I still think they should remain together in one article, the way various types of tofu are. Your recommendation that seitan (as a term limited to macrobiotic cuisine) not be used as the article title is something that we should consider. Let's have some more discussion about this. What does Sjschen think? Badagnani 20:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've always known gluten food as "gluten", since that's how it had been sold in most markets where I do my shopping. Loaning the words from Japanese is problematic because fu (麩) is just too ambiguious while nama-fu (生麩, "raw" fu) is never really used in English to indicate gluten food stuffs. Both of these terms also translate to just "gluten" or "raw gluten", repectively. This is not really, a reason but they are kinda silly sounding ("fool!" and "Na'm a fool!"). Loaning the Chinese word is also a bad idea since the romanization "mian jin" (麵筋) is not really used to describe gluten foodstuff in English. Translating it is even worse idea since it means "dough tendon". While taking the Chinese or Japanese romanization of the words may be justified in other cases where no Engish word exists, the term "gluten" has been used to describe gluten foods more many many years. Most people I know also call gluten foodstuffs, ”gluten“. As such, if "seitan" is not the general term to used for gluten foodstuffs, then I would personally choose something like "Gluten foods" or "Gluten (foods)", since I think it's a lot better then "dough tendon", "mian jin", "fu", or "nama-fu". Those are my thoughts. --Sjschen 00:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Good edits. I'm happy with the name change. It needs some work though. It might be less confusing if the text about Japanese words for seitan were moved to the macrobiotic section. It should be made clear these products are quite rare, niche items and not typical Japanese cuisine. A recipe for authentic seitan would be good too. I will try to contribute more when I have some time. Dforest 09:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I found an ad for packaged Japanese-produced seitan (macrobiotic style), so I guess it's available there, if rare. Badagnani 09:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bran puffs

I've eaten something called "bran puffs" which I think is one of the Chinese or Japanese forms described by Sjschen. I think this comes dried (you need to boil it to reconstitute), and maybe also canned. Anybody have any idea what this is and whether it should be mentioned in the article? Badagnani 03:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, Wiktionary says that 麩 means "bran." This might explain why sometimes I see dried gluten puffs called "bran puffs." It's something of a mistranslation. In English, bran is the outer part of the wheat, distinct from the gluten. Badagnani 03:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More on Japanese preparation

Hope everyone is happy with the new title and format of the article. I notice that there is some new information in this website - http://www.cybermacro.com/Macrobiotic_Articles/From_Mitoku/FU_GLUTEN_CAKES/ about Japanese "fu" which is prepared by mixing gluten with wheat flour 50/50, and then baked, steamed, cut, and dried. There are four names of shapes listed. Is this information accurate and, if so, can someone with expertise add this to the three types Sjschen has put in for Japanese styles of "fu"? Also, can someone add romaji for each hiragana spelling? Badagnani 08:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chai pow yu

I've eaten a product labeled Chai Pow Yu which is sold in cans, and usually translated as vegetarian abalone or simply braised gluten. I believe the hanzi is 齋鮑魚. According to Wiktionary the pinyin appears to be zhāi bào yú. I'm not so familiar with the Chinese forms of gluten, but it seems to be one of the more common ones. A Google search in English shows several dozen Western recipes that use this food. I've also seen braised gluten prepared as mock duck, chicken, lamb, beef, etc. I presume the canned "braised" varieties are all types of yóu miàn jīn (油麵筋). Anyone familiar with this? Dforest 08:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Good question. Let's have Sjschen have a look at this (when he wakes up, ha ha) and see if it's a new species of gluten or whether it falls under the yóu miàn jīn type as you'd guessed. I'm not a big fan of the canned/jarred braised style (I think this type is similar to the kind found in glass jars, sometimes with peanuts, which is eaten with congee). Badagnani 08:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Wiktionary says 齋鮑魚 means "vegetarian abalone fish"; sounds like a marketing term to me. Badagnani 08:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "vegetarian abalone" you guys are talking about is a type of you mian jin (油麵筋). However, steamed gluten in its myriad of streched, rolled, and block forms is the main type of gluten used by everyone to make "fake meat". You find it as ((mock, fake, imitation) + (duck, chicken, beef)) in the asian canned food section. I'm personally a huge fan of the jarred kind with mushrooms and peanuts (which is usually fried gluten). The canned steamed gluten fake meat kind is tolerable at times, but they all taste the same to me whether they are labeled as duck, chicken, beef, or unicorn. Sjschen 20:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I also suspect in the back of my mind that kao fu is actually a form of gluten reintroduced from japan to the chinese. This is because the word fu is used in Japanese, not in Chinese, to describe gluten, since as Badagnani mentioned, in Chinese it means "bran". I can't prove any of this because I have no sources, but I personally think it's a good guess. Sjschen 20:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tanpaku(shitsu)

Is this the right punctuation? Badagnani 01:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Big gluten ball?

I just bought something in a Chinese grocery store: labeled "Big Gluten Ball." It's dried, brittle, puffy balls of gluten filled with air that you're supposed to fill with meat, mushrooms, or something, then stir fry or add to stew. I don't know the 2nd character but the others are "big ___ mian jin." Is this a new species of gluten? Badagnani 11:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Preparing gluten from wheat flour (OR)

I've modified point four to include some original research. --Fasten 09:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, but now the page looks to any user as if they can't trust any of it. Why not rather discuss your proposed change over here on the talk page, and see if anyone can find sources for your statements? --Slashme 11:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I made a template to mark only the section as Original Research. Hope that's a bit better. Still, I thought WP:NOR was a policy. Why explicitly break it? --Slashme 12:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Because it is such a minor observation and in a field of knowledge where research is very seldom a science anyway. I do think your {{SectOR}} is a very good idea, by the way. --Fasten 13:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Still, I doubt whether that much detail is really necessary: This isn't a cooking website. It's supposedly a general encyclopedia, so I'd say the details of the recipe can be left out. And definitely the parts that you know only from personal experience shouldn't be there. If we post information based on original research, it becomes really hard to separate fact from opinion. --Slashme 16:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)