Talk:Western Europe

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Problems 2 Germany 3 Roman Empire 4 More problems 5 Vatican 6 Whatever 7 Eastern vs. Western Christianity, Socialism vs. Capitalism 8 Up to World War I 9 British Isles 10 Estonia removed 11 Switzerland is Western European, not Central European! 12 Nordic countries 13 Elbe as the dividing line 14 Poll: Ireland article titles 15 This article is simply wrong (in my opinion)+ major overhaul 16 NPOVs 17 Caption of image at the top 18 Scandinavia/Nordic 19 Slovenia 20 Wikification + Neutrality 21 Portugal 22 the cool image is under scrutiny 23 Top image 24 What the...? Is this definition a joke? 25 Slovenia and Cyprus 26 Recent political developments and modern Western Europe 27 "Europe before the Cold war" section 28 Slovenia 29 Greenland

[edit] Problems

This article says: Up to World War I, "Western Europe" was thought to comprise France, the British Isles and Benelux. These countries represented the democratic victors of both world wars

Huh???

Can you please specify what countries were considered in this region during WW2, with NATO and Iron Curtain

User:24.189.3.230 02:06, May 14, 2004

[edit] Germany

Why would countries that are in Central Europe such as Germany, be considered part of Western Europe? It makes it very confusing.

User:Europekid2oo4 00:00, May 14, 2004

I think most people would really be annoyed if Germany started another WW. If that were to happen the big guns of the world might just wipe Germany off the face of the Earth. If I were Germany I wouldn't try to take over the world again.

Hmm, that is the most obvious and dummest statement I have seen in a long time. First of all Germany started the WWII no doubts about it, but it did not start WWI all the european countries are guilty of that. The statement (above) is entirly correct but soo obvious. Everybody knows that, especially the Germans. I assure that they have lost any ambitions to conquer the world through military means. They prefer to conquer the world by bying the other countries, its cheaper and assured. In fact, no country has the power to conquer he world, even the allmighty USA. You just have to love the concept of assured mutual nuclear destruction, the great reason for peace. Flamarande 08:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Empire

Spain is part of Western Europe, and it was conquered by the Muslims.

Parts of Italy were part of the Eastern Roman Empire, as well.

corvus13

Actually, neither 'Spain' nor 'Italy' existed at the time. Probably the crucial difference was between those areas where the writ of the Roman pontificate ran versus those where it did not. This was to remain crucial; the Reformation was a reaction against the RC church and made little or no headway in Eastern Orthodox areas, etc. Greece is a difficult case: the cradle of Western civilization was not in the Western Empire. Filiocht 11:51, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More problems

This article says:

Western Europe is typically thought to include Scandinavia, Poland, Germany, Austria, Italy, and those nations further west.

Maybe some Poles might think of Poland as being part of Western Europe, but I think most people would say it is part of Central or Eastern Europe. This article gets several historical facts wrong (see comment of corvus13 above). While I don't actually know, the claim that Eastern Europe never developed any liberal politicial institutions of its own, but had to import them from the West, seems to me a bit questionable (a statement like that needs evidence).

What differences in culture are between Poland and Western Countries? After all, Poland in XVI century was far more democratic than most of Western Europe, more tolerant etc. Ever heard about postulata polonica? Hungary, another perfect example - they had some rights of freedom granted even before Poland szopen

Also, this article makes no mention of Communism, the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, which were important in shaping the modern conception of Western vs. Eastern Europe. (The West was the parts composed by the liberal democracies, the East by the communists -- this was just as important a part of the definition of E. Europe to the contemporary mind as questions of geography or medieveal or ancient history.) -- SJK

I have totally rewritten the article from the point of view of the current situation. It now needs someone to put the historical meat on it to explain:

1. East v West during the Cold War
2. Earlier manifestations of a divided Europe e.g. Byzantine v Roman Empires etc.

sjc

Concerning Poland and the other reform states this article and the article about Eastern Europe clearly shows a typical American or British point of view of which they expect that everyone has to agree.

[edit] Vatican

Minor quibble: is Vatican City really a country? I wouldn't call it a country. Technically speaking, Vatican City is not a state, the Holy See is a state, and Vatican City is merely territory possessed by the Holy See. And many scholars doubt whether the Holy See really is a state at all, since it is questionable whether it meets the legal criteria for statehood contained in the Montevideo convention. -- SJK

It is certainly largely autonomous, although it is probably not technically a country. I'll strike it... sjc

[edit] Whatever

This article has gone beyond silly. French Guiana is also part of the EU, shouldn't it also be listed under "Western Europe"? I say we preemptively declare the whole world to be Western Europe and be done with it. :P --Shallot 10:59, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern vs. Western Christianity, Socialism vs. Capitalism

Western and eastern europe can have a lot of differnts definitions. Historically, the oldest one is due to the division of the roman empire in 2 parts, one east, one west. The east part will give birth to the byzantine civilisation (based on orthodox religion); will the west part will give birth to catholica civilisation (and later to protestant civilisation) : what since this time we call "western civilisation"

In a very more recent time the meaning of western was changed by the american people in the meaning of "capitalist" and "americanized" countries. In this case you can say that east germany was not wetern while culturally if have been westerner since so much more time than the USA.

User:82.224.59.166 21:18, Jun 9, 2004

I have yet to meet a Polish person who would think of Poland as part of Western Europe. Moreover, how did Slovenia become a part of Western Europe?

User:69.194.45.9 05:34, Nov 17, 2004

So why Greece is a part of Western Europe?? 83.22.33.31 14:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Greece is considered a part of Western Europe because it was on the "Western/capitalistic/Democratic/US-influenced" side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War. Flamarande 11:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Up to World War I

Currently the article says:

Up to World War I, "Western Europe" was thought to comprise France, the British Isles and Benelux.

From when until World War I? And who thought it "this comprise[d] France, the British Isles and Benelux" ? Philip Baird Shearer 00:16, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is a modern interpretation of history. Traditionally, western Europe refered to the difference between Catolic/Protestant Europe (including Poland... which was during a large part of history governed by other countries) and Ortodox Europe. It is a today's political view to equate "Western Europe" or the Western World with democracy. Before democracy began, the West was already West (and the East was already East...). It is in the Western part of Europe that the secularisation began. The diference is quite fundamental: in the early 1900's, the East was still heaving slavery. Germany was not a democracy but democracy was being discussed. It were also the Western states of the East bloc that resisted Soviet rule: Hungaria, Polonia, Czech Republic and the Baltic states. 83.162.19.42 21:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] British Isles

Why use the term British Isles? See IONA. -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:16, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They refer to Ireland as well as Brittian. Jaxad0127 06:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Estonia removed

I removed the sentence stating that - Estonia is sometimes considered a Nordic Country and may also sometimes be considered Western Europe. I have never seen the country refered to as Western Europe in any reference in either English, German, or French (the languages I speak). Obviously someone on the planet might consider it as such but it is not common enough of a notion to be included here.

--84.153.37.201 00:08, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold

I think your removal was not quite unmotivated. However, the context somehow put the Slovenian ambition to be counted as Western European on equal footing with the Estonian ambition to be counted as one of the Nordic countries (and hence indirectly as Western European).

It's a weakness of Wikipedia, that we have no good instrument to handle situations like these. Your argument, Harold, is that you've never seen this referred to in any language you know, and that is a negative statement that is pretty hard to make evident, unfortunately. I believe many Wikipedians, including the one who undid your removal, think that it wasn't added on a whim, and had stood "the test of time", and hence maybe it ought to be removed by someone who reads Estonian — or something like that.

This is not to say that you are, necessarily, wrong, only that many Wikipedians may tend to treat the text conservatively in this kind of case. Maybe you are located closer to Slovenia than to Estonia (culturally, linguistically, geographicaly...), and maybe this makes your judgement skewed. It's hard to tell, but easy to suspect.

Personally, I think the attractiveness of a perceived belonging to Western Europe is the interesting phenomenon that these examples illustrate, but I see no better way to make that point than by examples.

Regards!

--Johan Magnus 06:45, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Johan, your arguments are good, but the fact remains this is the English language Wikipedia and I have never come a English texts or reference where Estonia is connected to Western Europe, even through its indirect connections to the Nordic Countries. It seems most logical to me that the article inform about areas that are generally or even occasionally considered parts of Western Europe.. and not just areas that may in their cultural context want to see themselves as western Europe or western European. Estonia as a former Soviet republic in a northeastern section of Europe is rarely, and I emphasize rarely if ever, mentioned as being a Western European state in the English-speaking world. I have never seen this and for the reason I do not think it is justified to mention the fact the country here. If you have any references to counter my arguments please provide them, otherwise I will continue to stick with my arguments. --84.153.6.152 13:53, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold

[edit] Switzerland is Western European, not Central European!

LOL! John Calvin's society were all Western Europeans. How is Suisse distant from France? TheUnforgiven 22:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

You talk as if there's a specific boundary between Central and Western. I say that Switzerland is both Western European (if we only divide europe in two sections, Western and Eastern) and Central European (if we divide it in three, Western, Central, Eastern and always depending where we put the dividing lines ). Meanwhile "Central Europe"+Switzerland gives 725.000 results, so wikipedia's not invented placing Switzerland there. Cheers! Aris Katsaris 00:42, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Burgundian Geneva was the capital of Western European Protestantism (minus Anglicanism), which was John Calvin's residence after moving from France. Luther and many of those other Germanic guys dealt with Northern European Protestantism. I think that these Wikipedia articles don't reflect the society of Europe. When I think of Swiss bankers( and chocolates, cheese, clocks, army knives, etc), France or Lombardy (and Belgium) also comes to mind. Granted, Liechtenstein and Austria are Central European but that is because of their history and culture despite the shared terrain with Switzerland. How popular is Austria in American social culture, compared to Switzerland? http://www.ricola.com/ is a common product in America, but what about Austrian products? Weiners are the only things I can think of that are of Austrian origin in America. Again, please explain how Burgundy is Central European? Not trying to be aggressive with you, but the Hundred Years' War and the House of Orange-Nassau were not ever based in Central Europe. We could make Franken/Franconia Central European because of Charlemagne, but Burgundy is Western European. Drang nach Osten, deals more with Central Europe. Tradition tells us these things and also as is remarked, Geneva is a Celtic name. Can we base the regional definitions of Europe upon this?: North West Europe=Celtic...North Central Europe=Germanic...North East Europe=Slavic...South West Europe=Hispanic...South Central Europe=Italic...South East Europe=Hellenic. The Finno-Ugric peoples and Bulgarians don't fit into this regular ideal of popular culture. Here's an example of the way I see it: After William III of Orange took the joint throne with Mary II of England, most American colonies of Western European blood had been continuing their loyalty. After the Frankish House of Hanover came to the fore, colonial rebellions became as common as Jacobitism. Calvinism and Lutheranism don't mix very well. What do you think about what I wrote here? Is there any merit? TheUnforgiven 01:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Yodeling is part of popular culture for Western Europeans and Americans. TheUnforgiven 05:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Agree. As a cultural concept, western Europe refered to the difference between Catolic/Protestant Europe and Ortodox Europe. Of course, Switzerland is part of Western Europe. "Central Europe" is more a geopgraphic concept. 83.162.19.42 21:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Switzerland, Germany and Austria were considered part of the "West" at the onset of the Cold war alltough Switzerland and Austria were neutral. Flamarande 21:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The above aside, the UN scheme of geographic sub/regional classifications – which is as neutral as we're gonna get (no pun intended) – places CH in Western Europe and has no classification of Central Europe ... likely because it is obviated by other regions in its scheme. 22:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the UN scheme is as far I can see a geographic sheme which neglects the political and cultural reality. The term "Western Europe" is mainly used and understood with its political and cultural importance. Flamarande 17:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is this a problem? There is no requirement that this article focus solely on sociopolitical or militaristic underpinings that vary both temporally and definitively; in fact, it opens it up. As well, visit articles with involving a cardinal direction – e.g., the West, the North – and you'll note similar distinctions. And the UN scheme is indisputably verifiable and indicated to differ. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not demanding that we erase the geographic definition, leave it as it is. The article was, as I found it, mainly about the political/cultural concept but I guess that we can leave both defitions: the geographical and the political/cultural one aslong both of them are clearly presented as such. Flamarande 18:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nordic countries

"5 of the 6 Nordic countries". What is the sixth? I visited the hyperlink to Nordic countries to find out the answer - only to be told that there are five Nordic countries! -86.134.47.32 19:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I was about to ask the same question, but then I checked closer and found out that there is some weird dispute coming from Estonia - who claim with all their heart to be somewhat Nordic, kinda. Seeing as we let the Finns in, I suppose I see their point, but it seems very odd to most Nordic people and I'd actually never heard of this contention before (I'm Icelandic).

Perhaps it would be better to include a reference to what the "supposed" sixth country is, rather than simply stating there are six when no official position (non-Estonian, that is) exists to back up that claim. However, I see from earlier discussions that there has been some dispute about how to bring up the Estonian issue, probably resulting in it's deletion but somehow the "5 out of 6" still got left in.

--- G.

[edit] Elbe as the dividing line

I would think that, historically (pre-1870?), the Elbe could be considered a division between Western and Eastern Europe, with large differences in the organisation of agriculture and land ownership. Further south, the Austrian empire and anything south or east of it should be considered non-WE. Jørgen 20:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The Elbe was in the middle of Germany pre-1870, how would you clasiefy that country? Western or Eastern ? Flamarande 21:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Germany didn't exist then. As far as I know, the Prussian government had strong Eastern characteristics. Post-1870, I would say that parts of Germany was Eastern, parts Western. The western parts were more industrialized, while the East still depended more on agriculture (of course with important exeptions). Does that sound OK? Jørgen 13:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I can see your point and agree with it to certain extent, but I don´t know. As far as I know the term "Western Europe" appeared as such with the the Cold War. There had been other divisions before, like the Western Roman Empire vs Eastern Roman Empire vs the "Barbarian Rest". Later there was Francia or Roman Catholics vs Greek Orthodox vs Islam.

The cultural border of the Elbe had more sense at the time of Charlemagne because at that time it was the eastern border of his Frankish Empire. After him the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation simply keept on expanding into the East. That empire (as far as I know) was considered the baulwark of civilized Europe against the somewhat "barbarian/nomadic" tribes. That empire extended beoynd the Elbe.

In the 1800´s there were many empires and kingdoms (British, Prussian, Austrian, Russian, French, Spanish, etc) which were rocked by the French Revolution. After the conflict was over, these countries reformed themselves. Some of them industrialised and became more, shall we say "liberal", others didn´t. We can´t use industry as the definition of a division of Europe for the German Empire was heavily industrialized (your point above "organisation of agriculture and land ownership"). As far as I know there was no clear cultural division in Europe except the political (Central Powers vs Triple Entente). The Austrian Empire and the German Empire at that time, were equal in cultural terms to the French Republic and The British Empire. We even have the Second French Empire of Napoleon III during some time. Was there a cultural division? Perhaps, but where were the borders of it? Did the term "Western Europe" appear at that time ? I don´t think so.

To make it short: I don´t think that the term "Western Europe" (as we know it) was used during that time and even if it was, I think that Austria and Germany were allready part of the "West". The idea of "Western" vs "Eastern" appeared mainly with the Bolshevik revolution, was coined by Goebbels and really became fashionable during the Cold War with the famous speech of Churchill. But hey that is my opinion, I don´t claim to know the whole truth. If you or anyone don´t agree with it please give me your reasons and we will debate it in this Talkpage Flamarande 18:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for a thorough answer! I do not have the time to delve into this right now, but I am not sure it's wrong to apply the term retroactively even though it was not used at the time (cf. describing The Great War as World War One. I'll see if I can look into some of my history books to check some more on this. But probably not today. Jørgen 07:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poll: Ireland article titles

A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is simply wrong (in my opinion)+ major overhaul

Hi, I am Flamarande (obviously). I found this article and was stunned by it´s content and I plan to correct it throughly. Somehow, I kind off jumped out as I began, but I was 213.22.236.175. Any questions or disputes with the contents of my edits should be presented in this Talkpage so that a agreement can be achieved.

This article presents Germany as a "alpine country" and part of "central europe". I can only protest against this factually wrong presentation of history and culture. Ok, I can understand that until the end of WWII it is somewhat debatable to present Germany as part of the "Western Europe" (alltough I personaly think it would be accurate). But after that conflict? Give me a break, with the onset of the Cold war the western parts occupied by the "western allies", the USA, UK, France joined into the the Federal Republic of Germany. The Iron curtain divided "old" Germany between thew East and the West, but this article fails to acknowledge that the "western part" of Germany was universally considered part of the "West". I mean it was part of Nato, it was and is a parlamentary Democracy, etc. I can only ask: "who wrote this"? Flamarande 00:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOVs

I removed a few NPOV paragraphs, some may be able to be rewritten and used properly for this article, however, I felt in their current form, they should just be deleted instead of being left on the article. Replace them if you want, but please fix them if you do. - Rudykog 13:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Look, how are we supposed to fix them if you simply delete them? If you see something wrong with this article, correct it. If it is challenged, then it will be debated in this talk page.

[edit] Caption of image at the top

I find it strange to see in the caption of the image at the top "Note that Greece should be included in this map." We either decide that it should be included and we modify the map, or we take that sentence out, right? --Mihai 01:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Replaced the troublesome map with a better one. Flamarande 17:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Is this "common understanding", and related map, at all sourced? While it isn't disagreeable per se, I will be compelled to replace it with something that is. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 21:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

To be really honest the image itself is not sourced in any book in particular. My main sources for my improvements are The Making of Europe ISBN 0-14-015409-4, Crescent and Cross ISBN 1-84212-753-5, The Normans ISBN 0-7524-2881-0 and 1066 The Year of the Three Battles ISBN 0-7126-6672-9. Besides all these books that I own, my common knowledge and many other books that I have read but do not own personnaly. I live in Western Europe and I consider myself quite educated (while not a savant). I found this article and was simply amazed by its wrongness and so I decided to improve it. Look, I am just a wannabe scholar (in other words a nerd) who simply reads alltoo many books about history and politics. I also read some serious newspapers and watch CNN and BBC. Before my improvements there was a article who failed to acknowledge West Germany as part of Western Europe. I hope that my references are good enough to satisfy your curiousity. Flamarande 17:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, there might be a problem. If Western Europe is interpreted largely politically, for instance, Switzerland and Austria (et al.) might justifiably be excluded due to their positions of neutrality throughout much and since the Cold War. (They wouldn't be included in Eastern Europe either.) If anything, a map based on membership in the Western European Union – current, prior, or tiered – might be a better basis for a map herein. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality was not the main issue in that definition, if it were soo then Albania and Youguslavia would also not have been considered part of Eastern Europe. It was like this: Democratic and Capitalist = Western Europe. Communist = Eastern Europe. I explained their strangeness in the neutral/problematic paragraph. Flamarande 18:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That why I noted et al. (and others) above. One of my issues is that, now, neutrality might be just as germane ... in any event, the definitions are still tenuous. Most of the territories in the region are now capitalist or on their way there (e.g., if EU membership is any indication). I'm still concerned that the article and map remains somewhat subjective regarding distinctions and definitions ... I will peruse and edit shortly. Thanks. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Capitalist vs Communist was the original definition. Neuttral counties in Europe were classified by their political/economic sytem. Notice the last pargraph which clearly shows that the political reality has changed, but that old Western Europeans are being nostaligic and many of them fell themselves superior towards the eastern countries. Flamarande 18:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not challenging the article text per se (though it stands for improvement): if it's the original definition (sourced?), this should be in the caption. It is currently vague. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 19:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scandinavia/Nordic

I changed all the referrals to Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway & Sweden from "Scandinavian countries" to "Nordic countries"

[edit] Slovenia

The text is contradictory to what is on the image, either remove Slovenia from the map or add it to the text. I don't know if is common to put Slovenia in the western europe. I think is more common to put it in the eastern part, but i'm not sure. --Seba 17:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

How could everyone overlook that country? You are right, Slovenia is not commonly considered part of Western Europe, and as soon as I find a better map I will replace the current one. Thanks for your sharp eyes. Flamarande 19:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

ok, i've fixed the map. --Seba 21:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I might be seing it wrong somehow, but Slovenia is still yellow. Flamarande 10:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you haven't refreshed? :o I see it in gray. --Seba 17:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification + Neutrality

The entire "Europe carefully divided until the Cold War" section sounds all wrong. It's opinionated, persuasive, biased and uses too many assertations of truth. It isn't encylopedic. Stuff like this shouldn't be in an article:

"To simply simplify it, is dangerous, for there were always exceptions to all rules and even more in the case of history. Despite all that, some lessons can be learned from it."

Wikipedia is not a Publisher of original thought. Also, it seems to have little to do with the topic at hand. Opinions? --Kinst 01:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, I never claim to know the whole truth, but I know that I read, and have read and studied alot about european history and that I stand by this article and that paragraph in particular (I wrote it, and I reformed the whole article). If you think that the paragraph is wrong ("sounds all wrong"), please show me my mistakes and present me with your interpretation of european history. Who knows? perhaps you can convince me that I am mistaken and that you are correct. As for the phrase ("to simply simplify...") it may not be encyclopedic but at least it warns the average reader to be careful and to question any simple presentation of hundered of years of history = wars, politics, treachery and doublecrosses. As for: "Wikipedia is not a Publisher of original thought" I can only reply that I have read alot of books about european history and I tried to sumarise the gained knowledge into this article. If that is considered "original thought" then I am guilty as charged. What am I supposed to do? Copy all the texts of all the books into this article? As for: "it seems to have little to do with the topic at hand" you really must be joking with me. The topic is "western europe" and the historical past "seems to have little to do with" it? Flamarande 20:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to present my interpretation of European history because firstly, I don't have one, and secondly, Wikipedia isn't for "historical interpretation" as Jimbo Wales said. I don't think that your opinion is wrong, just that it's an opinion, and so doesn't belong. It's an unpublished theory or argument on European history. That's what makes it sound all wrong to me. Please read the "What is Excluded" section of Wikipedia:No_original_research. I think it applies strongly here.

On the section's relevance to the article, "Europe carefully divided until the Cold War" is about all of European history, and with excessive length. This article is about Western Europe. The section doesn't even speak of the facts of pre-Cold War Western Europe, but instead presents a general theory for all of Europe's diplomacy. Ie. It could talk about Western Europe's industrial development, creation of democracies, or early hints of it unifying. Instead it doesn't say the words Western Europe [i]once[/i].

As for what to do, I don't know. Brainstorm? My inclination is to remove the whole thing and start following WWII, with something saying that Europe was not divided into East/West until then. --Kinst 21:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Done Flamarande 16:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed it a little bit more and, though I think the article needs more work, I won't press it further. Thank you. :-) If you disagree with what I changed please discuss. --Kinst 18:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portugal

I barely know anything about this country.

Don´t tell that to a portuguese. They are so full of themselves and it annoys them if someone says such a thing. You have to read the articles about Portugal. Flamarande 08:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the cool image is under scrutiny

Hmmm, it seems that the image that was recently added is under scrutiny. The user who added it (source) has to provide info about its origins (where it came from), or it will be deleted completely. Bloody hell, I liked that image. Flamarande 15:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Top image

In the top image, Image:Europe-western-countries.png, is there any reason that France + GB + Benelux are in a different shade of yellow than the rest of Western Europe? Deuar 18:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that some very tecnical scholars consider the Benelux, the brits and the froggies as the finest examples of western civilization, and therefore a bit better than the rest of europe. How goes the saying: "everybody is equal but some ppl are more equal than others" ? You must not forget that such fellings of cultural superiority were regarded quite proper and natural until the the end of WWII Flamarande 18:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I see San Marino and the other tiny countries have also fallen ot of favour with the cartographer ;-) Deuar 19:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

These tiny countries are mostly ignored by everybody (hey, that´s a fact). I really wish to know how to make maps, but I guess that it is quite difficult. Flamarande 19:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I am French myself and I consider irelevant your comments about about the idea that we would think ourselves as better than other Western Europeans,(being the "finest exemples of western civilisation" as you said it). I abslolutly don't feel that way. I am surprised too with the second definition of western Europe which is done on this article, wich implies that France and the Benelux would be more "western European" than other countries such as Spain, Portugal, Germany or Italy for exemple. No one in France will think it that way. Spain and Portugal are obviously as much western European than we are (even more geographically, just have to look a map!). Italy and Germany are of course as much Western European as we are too.

I wonder who on Earth uses such a narrowed and inacurate definition of western Europe which doesn't corespond to nothing !!

Nothing geographically (Iberia should be included, since it is more West), doesn't correspond to nothing economically/politically (all western Europe is democratic and developped) and nothing in a cultural definition (UK and Netherlands are mainly Protestant and of germanic culture while France is catholic and of romance language)...

I think it is just a very old-fashionned classification which was once used in some geopolitical classifications of the pre-WW2 world. This definition is irrelevant and sould be deleted or be put in a section called "old usages of the expression". Fabb leb 20:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Look, take a deep breath, calm down, and read more precisly what I wrote: "some very tecnical scholars consider...". Of course I don´t think that the French today consider themselves better than anyone else (a bit perhaps). It was a bit of humour which you took for a serious insult, and clearly indicated as such by the word "frogie" :) . I am a bloody European and damn proud of it.

But fact is that almost every nation considered itself better than any other nation, and such belief was encouraged by everybody, its called Nationalism and its still not gone today. It was much stronger not a few decades ago. And give me a break: not so long the British and the French culture was considered better than any other culture, and was accepted as such. French was the language "per excellencé", French and Benelux cuisine, French and British literature, French and Benelux painters, French clothing (la modé), British explorers, British scientists, British doctors, it goes on and on. Why do we (Europeans) fell a bit superiour towards the Americans (we do, be really honest)? Why are so many ppl shouting against "American imperialism" like MacDonalds, Hollywood movies, etc (these persons are pinheads in my opinion)?

Today things are diffrent (are they really ?), but Portugal, Spain and even Italy (among soo many others) were universaly considered 2nd rate countries in the 17th, 18th, and early 20th centuries well behind France and the British empire. Read for example Black Legend.

"All western Europe is democratic and developped" TODAY Fullstop. Democracy came much later to these countries, or are you going to deny Benito Mussolini, Francisco Franco, and António de Oliveira Salazar ? All these countries were under the rule of fascist dictators who supported Hitler and became democratic only in the 1970´s, mere 30 years ago. As for being developped, you are whitewashing things. Spain became a true industrial power quite recently and Portugal...Portugal simply isn´t there yet.

And like it or not, the term "Western Europe" came from the times of the Cold war, but is influenced by older notions. If we deny the older notions, we would be simply ingnoring our past. If we deny our past we will never learn anything, will we? It isn´t a CLEAR geographic ,economical/political ,cultural difinition, if you don´t care to learn history. Flamarande 09:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC) PS:If you want, you can look at this article at the 20:51, 12 February 2006

I want to precise that the narrowded definition of "western Europe" used from the classification of the UN includes the UK and Ireland in northern Europe. So, the map is wrong and should show France, Benelux and Germany but not UK. Anyway this definition is inaccurate and unusefull outside of the UN works and the UN administrative classifications. --Fabb leb 21:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. The current image shows the current common understanding of Western Europe (by normal people, not useless bureaucrats), and is in fact quite accurate. The definition of the UN is simply useless, nobody I know uses it, and it (the UN definition) can kiss my as*. Nevertheless it exists (if only in some useless UN papers and internet sites) and should remain here, as a sidednote. I like the UN and it is certainly better than nothing, but their incompetence in almost everything is sad, simply sad. Flamarande 22:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What the...? Is this definition a joke?

Okay, we'll start with the fact that the article says "the following nine countries," and then proceeds to list ten countries. That's a red flag right there.

Secondly, I can't imagine the UN would be so sloppy. Italy but not San Marino or the Vatican? Germany but not Denmark? And what the hell happened to Andorra, Spain, and Portugal?

I'm changing the article; I don't know what the U.N. says, so I'm deleting the list outright. Twin Bird 03:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well you can debate with user 80.104.96.190 who "improved" this article at 20:54, 16 June 2006. He is probably Italian and therefore added that country. Despite this, the list was correct (they were only nine before the "improvement"). I provided a link to the proper UN site for the article. Notice that the UN definition is largely useless as almost noone uses it. The text deals with the common use of that term and not with the UN definition. Flamarande 16:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The user who had added Italy is right. Everybody have alway considered Italy to be in Western Europe; More than this Italy is historically the country of western Europe the most influent it has never had. The UN classifications are completly arbitrary - and are mainly of pure administrative reason but not cultural or geographic. Excluding Spain and Portugal is aslo excluding two of the most important western European countries of its own land.--82.224.59.166 19:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slovenia and Cyprus

An anonymous user is continually placing Slovenia in the list of western european countries under the heading

A current understanding of Western Europe includes the following countries

Now I have never seen Slovenia in a list of western european countries. It's just plainly east of the customary dividing line that used to be the "iron curtain". Sure, Slovenia has a much higher GDP per capita than other post-communist countries, but that is not the usual criterion that most people use when referring to "western europe" (perhaps apart from Slovenians? I wouldn't know about that). The usual criterion is 20th century history, and Slovenia shares at least its last 80 years of history with postocommunist countries, not western europe. I would not expect other postcommunist countries to suddenly become "western europe" upon reaching some economic threshold, and I don't see why Slovenia is any different. However, please, if you do have some reasonably authoritative sources which list Slovenia as a western european country, do tell ... Deuar 20:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

While i'm on this topic, Cyprus was on the list for a while as well. It has a relatively high GDP, but so what? It's so far east that calling it western europe is pretty crazy. In fact it's not even in Europe (geographically speaking). Deuar 20:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent political developments and modern Western Europe

I'm removing the paragraph mentioning the quoting of Jacques Chirac:

• It doesn't seem relevant to notions of what Western Europe is. Chirac doesn't mention Eastern or Western Europe in the cited interview (http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cahier/europe/conf-chirac, in French).
• Chirac's words in this interview describe one diplomatic action, not the signatory governments or countries as a whole.

If someone wishes to re-instate these words, then please try to address the following minor points:

• Mention that the words are from an interview rather than necessarily a prepared speech, and cite the interview in question (URL given above).
• The "dangers" part is out of context: here it appears like a veiled threat from Chirac, whereas the original names the source of danger as various countries' referendums that are yet to take place.
• Why say "is quoted" ? Is this merely to distance us from the claim that he really did say these words, or is the wide quotation of these couple of phrases significant to the reader's understanding of Western Europe? (Also, there's some ambiguity: I wondered whether Rumsfeld had quoted Chirac when using the phrase "Old Europe", but apparently Rumsfeld's remarks precede Chirac's.)

Two words: Vae Victis. Let's pretend that many Western europeans don't fell themselves (and their countries) superiour towards the eastern europeans countries. No, even better, let's claim that the old east-west divide doesn't exist anymore, it faded away completly after 1989. What are you demanding: a unambigous statement of the western ppl telling that the eastern countries are second-rate? There is no such statement (where you expecting a large Anti-eastern gathering with the proper slogans?) but such a fellings exist or are you living in a dream world?

There is a divide between western and eastern Europe. It shows itself in small sneaky ways. An example as the eastern countries became official EU members they recieved limited Shengen rights. Why? I tell you why: because some countries are more equal than others.

The eastern countries recieved real full independence in 1989. As soon as possible most of them wanted to become members of NATO and of the EU. Out of one "empire" into another. Why? Well you can defend that they wanted to catch up with western Europe. I am a bit of a cynic - realist, I rather believe that they wanted to join first because of cold hard cash (EU development funds) and also to secure their independence against Russia through NATO. Now someone can say that they were accepted with open arms. But where they really? How many years had they to wait before they became NATO members? How many years had they wait before some of them became EU members?

Do some of these countries really become part of a new European federal state (because that's the real plan, don't be fooled with political statements about souveran nations)? Many want to, others really want only cash. The second group is defending their souveranity with all kind of political manouvers.

That's what really happened: In the Iraq war the US and the UK recieved a big diplomatic hit by France and Germany (who want to present the EU as the liberal alternative), and were desperate to show the world that the invasion was not a stupid adventure of two big bullies. So they kissed some as* and the Eastern countries who wanted to hit the French and the Germans in the *uts stated that they were at the side of the US. So basicly they bit the hand that was feeding them. Chirac was pis*ed off and said that statement clearly meaning the Eastern coutries. In the fine link you provided it is shown even clearer: "Si elles voulaient diminuer leurs chances d’entrer dans l’Europe, elles ne pouvaient pas trouver un meilleur moyen" - "If they want to diminish their chances of joining Europe they couldn't have picked a better means" (that's the real meaning and not a word for word translation).

Face it: Europe is still divided and the East is still considered second class. The ppl of WE won't tell it in your face though and the youth will deny it, but that is simple political correctness.

And before someone begins to accuse me of rassism, or trying to divide the Europeans or whatever: I am a bloody European. I am a Western European, but I think that we really need the Eastern countries. But I will not deny the historical and political truth (that we still are very divided - and that the WE considers itself better than the EE) in the name of political correctness. Flamarande 19:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC) Please sign your statements with 4 "~".

[edit] "Europe before the Cold war" section

The text I encountered in this section was pretty poor quality containing many weasel words and peacock terms, so I have tried to make it more "encyclopedic". Tell the truth this section appears to be an attempt to "explain the causes of World War II". It is not clear to me at all what its relevance to the concept of Western Europe is. In fact Western Europe was not even mentioned anywhere in that section. I would like to suggest removing this section altogether since I am sure that the causes of WWI and WWII are explained much better in their own articles.

On a slightly different topic - there was an image Image:Centum_Satem_map.png in this section, whose relevance was again completely opaque. If it is actually relevant, could someone please explain before putting it in? Deuar 15:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that section in an small effort to explain that the modern term only began its use since the end of WWII. I didn't think it was that bad, sorry. I think this improved version is quite good and think we should leave as it is.

About the image: USER:Nixer added it, but I fail to see its relevance. Leave it deleted.

Somebody keeps adding Slovenia in some sort of national inferiority complex, I am quite inclined to either request a ban upon the user (dubious because he has a mobile IP) or request a partial protection of this article. Flamarande 17:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, yeah, now I see your point for including that section. Sounds good. ... and I wish the Slovenia adder would get over that (very unnecessary) inferiority complex. Deuar 13:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slovenia

In reaction to Flamarande's last comment here (just above this). I know edit-conflict can be frustrating but there a better ways to resolve the issue. I am indifferent to the inclusion of Slovenia, but a good discussion here or a request for comment, can solve the issue, while making threats and insulting people won't. I propose we have a decent discussion about the issue! - C mon 18:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I consider myself a very tolerant dude (it might be self-delusion though :). I quite like this small article and reformed it to a large extent (I am not its master but I certainly feel its Keeper). I also have accepted many compromises and have deleted several passages as you can check out in the history and follow in talkpage (I was interrested in presenting European history but another User pointed out that it dangerously close to POV - and I had to agree, he was right.

But a anonymous user (AU) (whom I suspect to be from Slovenia - I might be wrong, but I think not) keeps adding Slovenia as a Western European country in this article. User:Deuar correctly reverted these "improvements" but the AU keeps doing it again and again (he is nearing the 20 mark very soon).

Deuar allready proposed to debate the issue on this talkpage only to be ignored by the AU. AU began to challenge the inclusion of Greece, Malta, and Cyprus. Greece's status is beyond any doubt: is widely considered a part of WE, the other two are a bit more ambigous, being fair these later two were removed.

As he refused to debate the issue, I explained to him that Slovenia is not a part of WE because it was on the "eastern side" of the Iron Courtain (comments on the history page). The AU even had the gall to simply chang the "yellow map" to include Slovenia (in fact he reused a old map which included Slovenia - a simple honest mistake).

Again AU simly ignored the explanation and continued with his sneaky changes.

I am sorry if I am sounding frustated, but fact is that AU is slowly beginning to get on my nerves. He has a moving IP and is simply doing sneaky changes and ignores any explanation or offer of reasonable debate.

And being really honest: I really think that some nationalists of the eastern countries are trying to rewrite history to improve the standing of their countries (how falsefying history will improve that is beyond me). I have seen this behaviour in several articles and I will be damned if I don't revert it at least in this article. Why do they deny their own history? Again being completly honest: I believe they are sufferring from inferiority complexes. Well too bad. History is history and should not be used as political propaganda or be twisted to assure national feelings.

History is a humane science and is therefore always imperfect (unlike mathematics, physics, and chemistry) but we are obliged to write it down as best as we know it and not to twist as we want to (almost all historians are guilty of that sin - sad but true)

To simply accept the behaviour of AU and his "improvemnts" in name of lazyness or political correctness I leave for politicians and fools (I not calling anyone here a fool, nor lazy - only those who know better, but don't want go through the trouble in the name of political correctness). Flamarande 21:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greenland

Greenland is not part of Western Europe in most "common understandings". Reason: geographically it's not even part of Europe! It is far on the American side of the Atlantic Ocean. While Greenland is closely associated with Western Europe politically via its links to Denmark this does not make it any more part of Europe geographically than e.g. French Guiana or Martinique despite all those places having members of Parliament in France. Another example: Siberia is not in Eastern Europe even though it's part of Russia. Deuar 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)