Talk:West Africa

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[edit] Questions on Regional Inclusion

Can someone please fix the following problem: the map covers the last column of countries (Nigeria through Togo). thx.

The article states that Mauritania is sometimes considered part of West Africa, but the map shows Western Sahara shaded light green instead. Either the text or the map should be fixed, but I don't know which.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Article and image corrected.
Lucidity 12:01, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anon removed Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Republic of Congo and Cameroon from the list, but they're still on the map - this ought to be clarified one way or the other. I've no particular knowledge of the region myself.
sjorford →•← 14:42, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The map and text should agree now.
BrianSmithson 11:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Sjorford, to answer your question, the list and map don't agree when users come to the article and decide that a particular country should or should not be included in the region, usually subjectively and without citing any authoritative source. I reverted to the map and corresponding list of countries that I have individually verified using The CIA's World Factbook which is a serious and well-respected source of information on foreign countries and such things as regional categorization. I hope that clarifies your concern and helps others understand how this list came about.
Lucidity 08:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Lucidity, along with reverting to a very early revision you removed many recent additions to the history section, many interwikilinks, and other content. I don't think you meant to do this, as you were not saying that the history section was better when the article sticked to the CIA definition. I think we agree that things need to be sourced; we don't agree however on the fact the definition as used in The World Factbook is the only one to be used. Definitions of 'West Africa' differ, and instead of removing everything that is not sourced right now I think it is a better idea to cite sources. I have turned back your revert, hope we can talk about this first. — mark ✎ 09:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark Dingemase, ah! sorry about that; I screwed up the copy and paste. I'll be better about double checking on the next one.
Also, I understand your point about differing opinions about country inclusion in West Africa, but given:
A) an unsourced, arbitrary, or subjective depiction of West Africa, and
B) a sourced, internally and externally available authoritative website on West Africa,
I think it better maintains the integrity of this wikipedia article if we default to the sourced version as a base and let those who would say otherwise prove their case with citations.
Lucidity 09:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Lucidity, I still see a few problems. First, you still haven't sourced your new definition of West Africa in the article itself; people generally aren't going to read the whole talk page to see if it happens to mention a source. The definition arrived at there for West Africa was created by comparing several encyclopedias and history texts to see what the most common definitions were, and by working with what was already on the site. You're right to call me out for now listing those in the article--still, I'd like to consult a little more broadly than the CIA world factbook site, which I haven't trusted since I saw Bill Clinton listed there as president of the United States in early 2002. None of this is to disparage your claims, though--your definition may well be better. I just want to check a few places before rearranging the article substantially.
Second, if you want to change the definition of West Africa here, it won't be enough to just change the header; you're going to have to make some substantial changes to the rest of the article. For example, you've added Cameroon, Gabon, and Republic of Congo, which will be need now to be threaded into the history section; Mt. Cameroon will now be the highest point in W Africa; etc. For changes of this size on an article we've all just been working on (it was just colloboration of the week), it would be helpful to discuss it briefly on this page.
Anyway, I think you're right in your objections to its unsourced nature, but I don't think changing things without discussion or new sourcing is quite the way to go here. Mark is right, Lucidity--let's talk about this first! Unfortunately I don't have time to do real revisions right now--I'm in Louisiana and just on a brief break from volunteer coordination. But I hope other users watching this page might have a moment to check an encyclopedia and put their two cents in, then maybe we can rework the article from consensus; if Cameroon does need to be included, I suspect I know just the Wikipedian to do it... --Dvyost 14:39, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, that Wikipedian is in Louisiana, as well, trying to do what he can at the nearby shelter. But I caught a nasty cold yesterday, so I have had time to come up with this list for differentiating West from Central Africa: (BrianSmithson 17:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC))

[edit] West Africa

"West Africa", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version):

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon ("On the east, the western boundary is Cameroon."), Cape Verde (due to its membership in ECOWAS), Côte D'Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia, Mali south of the Sahara, Mauritania, Niger south of the Sahara, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo

"Western Africa", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version):

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo; Includes this note: "West Africa comprises all of the areas considered here except Cameroon, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, and the Saharan parts of Mali, Mauritania, and Niger."

"African art", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version); not exhaustive list:

Benin, Cameroon, Côte d'Ivoire, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone

"Africa", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version) includes another region, called West-central Africa, "the eastern extension of western Africa". It includes:

Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Gabon, Republic of Congo, Sudan

List from Lonely Planet: West Africa, 5th ed. (2002)

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon (Cameroon was moved to the book from Lonely Planet: Central Africa for this edition after the latter went out of print), Cape Verde, Côte D'Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo

West Africa: The Rough Guide, 3rd ed. (1999):

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Côte D'Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Togo

The Diagram Group has several publications on Africa by region, such as Peoples of Central Africa and History of West Africa. They break the regions up like this:

Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Chad, Côte d'Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo; In addition, their book Peoples of West Africa includes the Moors (Western Sahara, Morocco, Algeria)

Countries that use the West African Franc:

Benin, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, Guinea-Bissau, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo

[edit] Central Africa

"Central Africa", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version):

Burundi ("often considered part [along with Rwanda] because of their long administrative connections with the former Belgian Congo . . .), Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Gabon ("usually included"), Republic of the Congo, Rwanda ("often considered part [along with Burundi] because of their long administrative connections with the former Belgian Congo . . .), Sao Tome and Principe

"African art", Encyclopedia Britannica (2004 DVD version); not exhaustive list:

Cameroon, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Gabon, Republic of the Congo

Lonely Planet: Central Africa, 2nd ed. (1994):

Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Republic of the Congo, Sao Tome and Principe, Zaire

The Diagram Group has several publications on Africa by region, such as Peoples of Central Africa and History of West Africa. They break the regions up like this:

Angola, Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Republic of the Congo, Sao Tome and Principe, Zaire, Zambia; In addition, their Peoples of Central Africa covers the following groups who live in territories that extend outside of this definition of Central Africa: The Azande (Sudan), the Baya (Cameroon, Chad), the Fang (Cameroon), the Lozi (some in Namibia), the Mbuti, Twa, and Mbenga (Pygmies) (Cameroon, Rwanda, Burundi), the Tonga (Zimbabwe)

Countries that use the Central African Franc:

Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Republic of the Congo

A Google Images search for "West Africa", "Afrique de l'Ouest", "Central Africa" or "Afrique du Centre" shows that this is far from a cut-and-dried question.

[edit] More . . .

Found my old Grolier lying around (1992 ed.). Their list goes:

Benin, Cameroon, Gambia, Ghana, Guine, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo; sometimes Mali, Mauritania, Niger. (They don't have an article on Central Africa.)

Also, I cross-referenced four different encyclopedias' entries on individual countries for which some level of ambiguity is indicated in the above listings. Here's what we get from Encyclopedia Britannica 2004 DVD version (EB), Worldbook online version (WB), Encarta online version (En), and Grolier 1991 ed. (G):

Angola: "southwestern Africa" (EB); "Africa's southwest coast" (WB); "southwestern Africa" (En); "on the Atlantic Ocean" (G)
Burundi: "east-central Africa" (EB); "eastern Africa" (En); "east central Africa" (G)
Cameroon: West & Central (EB); "west coast of Africa" (WB); western (En); western (G)
Cape Verde: West (EB); west (En)
Central African Republic: "centre of Africa" (EB); "center of Africa" (WB); Central (En); "close to the geographic center of Africa" (G)
Chad: "north central" (EB); "north-central Africa" (WB); "north central Africa" (En); "north central Africa" (G)
Democratic Republic of the Congo: Central (EB); "at the heart of Africa" (WB); central (En)
Equatorial Guinea: "west coast of Africa" (EB); western (WB); "west central Africa" (G)
Gabon: "west coast of Africa" (EB); "west coast of Africa" (WB); "west coast of Africa" (G)
Mali: West (EB); western (WB); northwest (En); West (G)
Mauritania: "northwestern" (EB); northwestern (WB); northwestern (En); northwest (G)
Niger: West (EB); West (WB); West (G)
Republic of the Congo: "west-central Africa" (EB); "west-central Africa" (WB); "west central Africa" (En); "western Africa" (G)
Rwanda: "east-central Africa" (EB); "east-central Africa" (WB); "east central Africa" (En)
Sao Tome and Principe: Central (EB); "off the western coast of Africa" (En)
The Sudan: Northeastern (EB); "northeastern part of the continent" (WB); "northeastern Africa" (En); "northeastern Africa" (G)
Western Sahara: "northwest Africa" (EB); "northwest coast" (WB); "northwestern Africa" (En); "northwestern Africa" (G)
Zambia: "south-central Africa" (EB); "south-central Africa (WB); "south central Africa" (En); "south central Africa" (G)
BrianSmithson 22:07, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Summary?

So to summarize what Brian's got here (and fabulous work digging all this up!), it looks like Cameroon is included in most definitions of West Africa--but, complicating things, also in most definitions of Central Africa (since Wikipedia is not consistent, I'd be fine with including it in both articles). It looks like Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, and Rep of Congo are generally not, so we could change the text to reflect that. Sound good? --Dvyost 20:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

In absence of other user comments/objections, I went ahead and made the change to the text; the image remains to be fixed. This change means that the history section needs to be somewhat adjusted to mention Cameroonian history as well. I've changed the geo section to note Mt. Cameroon. --Dvyost 07:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UN stats definition, also used in the Unicode CLDR =

Sorry for bringing this up after the debate is over, but there's some data you might find relevant: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#africa which is commonly used in most of the locales keep at http://www.unicode.org/cldr/ . I think this is probably the best references on the topic. ---moyogo 14:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. As for the debate, there never really was any debate. I posted my findings, and Dvyost did a summary, but that was it. What I really think needs to happen is that all the Wikipedia editors who work on Africa-related articles need to find some central place to discuss the regional breakdown of Africa as a whole. What is East Africa? What is Central Africa? What is Northeast Africa? Should Wikipedia take one particular stance, or should we represent all ambiguity that exists in other sources? Should certain sources get precedence over others? There are a lot of issues that need to be resolved, and it'd make more sense to conclude them all in one place rather than spreading the discussion out between regional articles. Unfortunately, I'm too busy to organize such a discussion at the moment. BrianSmithson 17:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Collaboration notes

I started adding a history section but it's clearly gotten out of control; I think I'll move it to History of West Africa later and put a much more basic summary and link here. Sections that might still be worth including would be languages, culture, economy, recent/current conflicts, regional politics/organizations... any other thoughts? I'll be back to this one tonight myself to patch up the history part and try to get some others started. --Dvyost 21:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Collapsed the history to a (I hope) managable size. Still could use a bit on the culture, economy, geology, religion, and languages by qualified folks. That history could use a lookover from someone qualified, too. --Dvyost 07:50, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Removed the boundary claim of Bantu/non-Bantu as a bit silly (see relevant User_talk:Mark_Dingemanse#West_Africa_languages discussion with Mark Dingemanse). After all, Sweden, Laos, and Belize are non-Bantu-speaking countries that probably should not be considered a part of the region. Still, if anybody can think of a more reasonable way to formulate this (or cite places where the Bantu/non-Bantu distinction is used) I'd be happy to see it go back in. --Dvyost 14:13, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] If you talk of corruption please explain reasons for corruption

Please expand on the authoritarian nature of colonialism which allowed for manipulators to assert control. Also, there is no mention of the unnatural divisions of boundaries which caused tribalism no different from what Europe experienced.

Western Sahara can not be included in West Africa because geography is not what defines West Africa. Western Sahara are Berber and Arab, this is not the same as the entire region south of the Sahara.

At the moment my comments feel emotional and not complete. I will complete my thoughts tommorrow night. (comment added by Shadeyoj on 15 August)

Thanks for noting these concerns. Western Sahara isn't really included in West Africa as currently defined by this article, just a note saying that some definitions do include it.
As for the corruption, if you have some details you can include on its origins, go for it! That, after all, is what Wikipedia is all about. I do tend to agree with you that the corrupt nature of colonial governments is one of the main causes of the corruption we see today, but unfortuantely I didn't have any good sources on hand to support the claim (colonial and postcolonial Africa isn't so much my strong point as pre-colonial). Therefore I've stuck with the simple NPOV fact that it currently exists, but I'd be very happy to see that expanded once some good references could be found. History of West Africa might be an even better place to go into this, as that article can support much longer explanations (this one's necessarily compressed). Best, --Dvyost 03:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
One might argue that 'reasons for corruption' include other unfreedoms suffered by West Africans: little or no freedom to particpate in markets; lack of democratic channels to effectively express concern about corruption or foment change; oppression from militias etc... this 'interrelated freedoms' view is of course advocated by Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen. Basically what I am trying to say is that if you view certain states in West Africa through his "Development as Freedom" theory, you see that general underdevelopment - ie unfreedom - of many sorts is allowing corruption to thrive (and, as a collary, corruption inhibits people's freedom). --81.154.236.221 00:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If some aspect of West Africa is your pervue please reasearch Bishop TS Johnson Sierra Leone.

[edit] Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive

Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.--Fenice 08:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

South Africa is a country, the region is Southern Africa. Renaming this article to that of its current redirect page would create consistency among the designations for the regions of Africa: Southern Africa, Northern Africa, Eastern Africa, Western Africa, and Central Africa.

Withdrawn
The United Nations Office of the Special Advisor on Africa (OSAA) uses both forms.—Chidom talk  00:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
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