Talk:Werowocomoco

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An entry from Werowocomoco appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 1 April 2006.

Welcome to the Talk page for the Wikipedia article about Werowocomoco.

[edit] Blurb for DYK

Did You Know

• ...Werowocomoco was a major village of the Powhatan Confederacy of the Native American tribes on the York River in what is now Gloucester County, Virginia where English soldier and pioneer John Smith of Jamestown was allegedly rescued from execution by Pocahontas, Chief Powhatan's younger daughter?

They should not have left out the "allegedly" from the Main page blurb. Many scholars who have written books on the subject have questioned whether such an event took place, for the reason that John Smith, who wrote prolifically on the subject of Virginia nearly every year, made no reference to this having occured until around 20 years after it supposedly did. They think it may well have been a story he concocted in later life only after Pocahontas became famous. If this really happened, he had 20 years worth of reports on VA natives where he did not say a word about it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 03:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The articles on Werowocomoco, John Smith of Jamestown, and Pocahontas each make it pretty clear that the story is doubtful. Vaoverland 03:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Powhatan as title

Powhatan does not mean 'Emperor' - it is from an Algonquian word, meaning roughly "waterfalls in a current of water", and refers to the waterfalls on the James River approximately where modern day Richmond is located. The term was used as a title for Wahunsunacock in much the same way as certain characters in Shakespeare's plays are referred to - e.g. "Northumberland" or "York" for the dukes of those two respective localities. I've spent a lot of time researching the appelations of Wahunsunacock, and if you are looking for a title that may be construed as "Emperor", the term 'Mamanatowick' is a possibility, as it seems to be a rarely used word meaning roughly 'paramount chief', as opposed to the more common weroance. There is a lot of confusion about the term "Powhatan" as it is used (often incorrectly) to refer to many things. WLD 13:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I am going to have to revert back again to the other editor's version. As the other editor said, it is a a title, a tribe, a confederacy and a place (you forgot river). There is ample evidence for this in the primary sources, and only modernistic OR saying otherwise without convincing proof. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Please cite the appropriate primary sources. WLD 15:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I'm sure you have some source for your "Northumberland" theory, besides yourself, right? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a theory - read Shakespeare for yourself. One example, of many is Henry IV part two, Act Three "'Tis not ten years/Since Richard and Northumberland, great friends/Did feast together, and in two years after/Were they at wars. It is but eight years since". WLD 15:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the British usage. What I obviously meant was, do you have any source whatsoever for your theory that this British usage was ever applied to the Powhatan people. I do believe you when you say you have researched this, but as is well known, this isn't the place to do our own research - only to cite all existing views. Fortunately, Media-wiki have just opened up a new project you may be interested in, called Wikiversity, where you can conduct all the original research you want. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I know you have read 'Map of Virginia' and 'A True Relation'. Take another look, and see if Powhatan is used as a synonym for Emperor. It isn't. See the following usages:

• "Tawnor nehiegh Powhatan. where dwels Powwhatan."
• "The name of this river they call Powhatan accor to the name of a principall country that lieth upon it."
• "The place called Powhatan, some 40. On the South side this river,..."
• "On the South side inhabit the people of Youghtanund, who have about 60 men for warres. On the North branch Mattapament, who have 30 men. Where this river is divided, the Country is called Pamaunke, and nourisheth neere 300 able men. About 25 miles lower on the North side of this river is Werawcomoco, where their great King inhabited when CaptainSmith was delivered him prisoner; yet there are not past 40 able men. But now he hath abandoned that, and liveth at Orapakes by Youghtanund in the wildernesse. 10 or 12 myles lower, on the South side of this river is Chiskiack, which hath some 40 or 50 men. These, as also Apamatuck, Irrphatock, and Powhatan, are their great kings chiefe alliance and inhabitance. The rest (as they report) his Conquests."
• "Theses are scarse known to Powhatan."
• "...doth equalize any of the Territories of Powhatan and speake his language; who over all those doth rule as king."
• "Amongst those people are thus many severall nations of sundry languages, that environ Powhatans Territories."
• "Powhatan their great king and some others that are provident, rost their fish and flesh upon hurdles as before is expressed and leepe it till scarce time."
• "The forme of their Comon wealth is a monarchicall governement. One as Emperour ruleth over many kings or governours. Their chiefe ruler is called Powhatan, and taketh his name of the principall place of dwelling called Powhatan. But his proper name is Wahunsonacock."

The last quotation is telling - Smith tells us that Wahunsonacock's proper name is Wahunsonacock, and "taketh his name of the principall place of dwelling called Powhatan" Where do you get your idea that Powhatan means Emperor? It is not in "True Relation" or "Map of Virgina" - True Relation says Emperor Powhatan, and Powhatan their Emperor, but does not equate the word Powhatan with Emperor. WLD 16:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it seems you've proved me wrong. Mea culpa. I did get confused, because I have often heard that Powhatan was not a personal name, but a title. Perhaps Northumberland is an apt comparison after all. I will revert myself to your version.

In looking this up, I found Smith's account where he reports how he and two other English tried to perform a coronation of him as "Emperour" of Virginia (and supposedly vassal of James), but he refused to kneel to receive the crown, and they had a hard time finally getting it on his head! Lots of interesting stuff... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks for being open to discussion. The first hand accounts of the interactions between the colonists/settlers and the local population are very interesting. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that someone they called an emperor could be a vassal to a king, as I thought it would normally be the other way around - at least, that's what the Romans did. Why Smith chose to refer to Wahunsonacock as an emperor is interesting, rather than say as a king, with feudal lords. Maybe it is just a question of what he was familiar with from his travels elsewhere. Anyway, such speculation, although interesting, is definitely original research, and would have no place in an article. Thanks again for reverting back. WLD 18:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)