Talk:Welsh language

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Contents 1 Dishgled 2 Old Welsh 3 Christopher in Welsh 4 Welsh in IT 5 ap/map 6 Colloquial Welsh = Cymraeg Byw? 7 Welsh: Romance or Celtic? 8 Diglossia: Literary vs. Colloquial Welsh

[edit] Dishgled

Is this word spelled correctly? I didn't think Welsh had the digraph "sh"... FilipeS 15:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I am hesitant to comment on proper spelling so I'll just look for sources :) A search for "dishgled -wikipedia" (to exclude mirrors of this page) gets a smallish bunch of hits: everything from the BBC's Welsh pages to blogs written in Welsh, so obviously people are happy to spell it that way. Geiriadur yr Academi says, when I look up "cup": "...(=cupful) [standard and northern bits deleted] S dysglaid (dysgleidiau) f (usu pronounded dishgled), SW occ dished (disheidiau)." So it obviously thinks that sh can happen. The Welsh Learner's Dictionary certainly spells it dishgled, (and includes not only 12 words beginning with j but 2 beginning with k, which I suspect will cause some to blink.) Telsa (talk) 17:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Being a northerner, I don't really use the word, but I think I'd spell it disgled; on the other hand, I have no problem with 'dishgled'. The sound 'sh' is a bit funny in Welsh - originally it only ever occurred as an allophone of [s] next to high front vowels, so the normal way to spell it in modern Welsh is 'si' (as in Sian). The problem is that when there's no other vowel following, such a spelling seems to imply that the 'i' is to be pronounced (think of 'disigled'). One solution is to write just 's' (think of 'wats') and let the reader make the decision - English spelling does this all the time. But I don't think we should shun 'sh' - it seems an elegant and immediately recognisable way to write the sound in 'dis(h)gled'. When it comes to representing foreign placenames in Welsh, especially where tranliteration is necessary, a spelling like 'sh' seems eminently sensible. With reference to Russia for example, I'm very much in favour of writing 'Fladifostoc' and Raspwtin in Welsh, rather than borrowing transliterations from English that don't work in Welsh; in this context Bashcir seems preferable to both Bashkir and Bascir. I have more of an issue with 'k', which I think is redundant. I write 'cilo-' for example. garik 13:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

But don't southerners pronounce "s" as [sh] by default, before consonants? Then it would be redundant to add an "h"... FilipeS 15:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of that - but yes, in that case it would be. garik 17:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Do they though?garik 13:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The article says they do. Search for the word "lisp". FilipeS 14:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The article says it's a tendency to change 's' to 'sh'. Thus it only happens in some words. Nobody would pronounce cysgu (to sleep) as 'cyshgu'. Gareth 19:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case, the article needs to be made clearer. FilipeS 10:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

A good example of the southern 'lisp' is the pronunciation of, for instance, "sir" (county) as "shir" Hogyn Lleol 19:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

But of course that's not before a consonant, but an [i]. I can't think offhand of a good example of a Southern lisp before a consonant - as Gareth says, no one would say 'cyshgu'. garik 14:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't dis(h)gled be one such example? :-) FilipeS 18:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but that's the word in question, and I think it's a special case for two reasons: first, it's related to English 'dish' - and if the pronunciation is not borrowed from that, then there's a very good chance it's heavily influenced by it; second, it's got an [i] in it (before the 's', granted, but still...) garik 09:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old Welsh

In the chapter on Old Welsh, an Anonymus has inserted "Welsh is also among one of the oldest languages in Britain, even older than English, and French." I would like to delete this sentence. That a language is "old" or "older" than others is nothing more than a popular stereotype. This can be said about most languages. How about: Inuit is a very old language. It is even older than Basque. As to the age of Welsh, it sais in the article that the oldest documents are dated back to the 6th century. Now, Old English usually is dated back to the 5th century, which makes it older. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unoffensive text or character (talk • contribs) 11:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought about that too, and in general saying that X is an "old language" is pretty meaningless. But in this case I think what the anon is trying to get at is the fact that Welsh has been spoken in Britain longer than English, and indeed longer than any language still spoken in Britain except Cornish. If that is what was meant, and if it's considered interesting enough to mention, then the sentence merely needs to be re-written rather than deleted. Angr 12:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

But then, in the article it says that Old Welsh goes back to the sixth century, while Old English, as we all know, goes back to the fifth. Which makes Old English the "older" language. The language spoken in Wales before the sixth century is obviously not documented and it seems that it is not called "Old Welsh" by linguists, but "Brythonic", which evolved into Welsh in about the same way that Latin evolved into French, Italian, etc.

If I were to rewrite the sentence (which I will not do, as I consider my English not good enough), I would say that Old Welsh evolved from Brythonic which was spoken on the island long before the Frisian, Anglian and Jutish settlers arrived, who brought with them Germanic dialects that then evolved into English.Unoffensive text or character 09:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a good point too. Welsh isn't older in any meaningful sense than English, and it isn't attested from an earlier date than English, and saying that Brythonic languages have been spoken in Britain for longer than Germanic languages have isn't really relevant to the section on Old Welsh, so I'm just going to remove the sentence. Angr 09:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, I've seen it argued that Old English was a different language from modern English, so the "6th century" figure seems arguable, too. Here's what I think is worth mentioning in the article: Welsh, or its direct ancestor, has been in Great Britain for longer than English or its ancestors. Old English speakers arrived in the island only in the 5th century, to the best of our knowledge, whereas some ancestor of Welsh had been spoken there since before Julius Caesar's time (1st century BC), and likely for much longer than that, since the Celts migrated to the British Isles. FilipeS 11:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Any standard that makes Old English a different language from Modern English also makes Old Welsh a different language from Modern Welsh, so we're back where we started. And while it's certainly true that the ancestor language of Welsh was spoken in Britain many centuries before the ancestor language of English, I at least don't find that factoid particularly interesting or worth mentioning inthe article. Angr 12:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, it's just as interesting as when you say, for instance, that "Basque may be the descendant of the language(s) spoken in the Iberian Peninsula before the arrival of the Indo-Europeans", or that "Scots is the closest relative to English still spoken today", or that "Frisian is the closest language to English and Scots spoken in the European mainland today". Not only does it establish relations between languages, but it also tells you something about their history, where they came from, and how they got where they are. Pretty interesting and revelant, IMO. FilipeS 14:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher in Welsh

I was putting the equivalents/transliterations of Christopher in different languages into alphabetical order at the Christopher article. The Welsh equivalent was listed as Llcrhifers, however when I Googled it there were only two hits both from the same article. Could anyone give the correct one, if any? Thanks. --Chris S. 22:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what it is, but I know it isn't Llcrhifers. Welsh has some weird phonology, but it certainly doesn't have the consonant cluster [ɬkr̥] at the beginnings of words. Angr 23:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's a webpage in Welsh showing a painting of "Sant Cristoffer", so I guess Cristoffer is the name you're going for. Angr 23:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welsh in IT

It seems to have been archived away, but User:Garik raised some problems with the Welsh in IT section: the stuff about frequencies according to search engines has no source and looks like WP:OR. I tried to find out where it might have come from and failed. Does anyone see a reason to keep it? Telsa (talk) 16:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I'd scrap that paragraph. Gareth 18:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ap/map

Hello! I seek advise. When did the contraction map become ap? Someone suggested the whole line of Welsh leaders need to be changed... thus Llywelyn Map Gruffudd. I am weary of this idea but have no sources to say that it is incorrect useage for a 12th cenutry Welsh patronomic. Any assistance will be appreciated!

Thanks!Drachenfyre 14:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know when the loss of the initial consonant took place, but it was certainly a [v], not an [m], that was lost, since nouns in apposition undergo Soft Mutation in Welsh. —Angr 14:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colloquial Welsh = Cymraeg Byw?

This is in regard to the use of "Cymraeg Byw" as a Welsh gloss for "Colloquial Welsh" both in this article and Welsh morphology. Every time I've encountered the term Cymraeg Byw it's in reference to the specific form of (somewhat) colloquial, standardized Welsh created and promoted in the '60s and '70s for adult learners and the like. The first few pages of Google results for Cymraeg Byw (including cy:Cymraeg ysgrifenedig) use the term to describe this form of Welsh. Is Cymraeg Byw really used to mean simply "Colloquial Welsh" among Welsh speakers? And if so, should some note be made about the two possible meanings? Strad 00:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've certainly never heard it used to mean colloquial Welsh, only that sort of somewhat artificial Welsh promoted in the 60s and 70s. To be honest though, I've never really heard the term used much at all. garik 09:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welsh: Romance or Celtic?

Can anyone explain why Welsh is classed as a Celtic language, when its vocabulary (at least) is so obviously derived from Latin? Why is this not mentioned in the article? TharkunColl 12:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Welsh has a large number of loanwords from Latin, but its most basic vocabulary is native Celtic. Its morphology and syntax are purely Celtic. —Angr 13:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I would add that several scholars would be happy to define English as Romano-Germanic, since its structures and vocabulary have been so heavily influenced by Latin (both directly and via French) - I believe somewhere in the region of 75% of native Germanic vocabulary has been lost (just try reading Beowulf). But the same is only true of Welsh insofar as it's true of almost all European languages. I think there's a case for acknowledging two parents of English, but taken too far, we'd be forced to class most languages with preposterously long prefixes, probably beginning "anglo-"... garik 13:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the number of Latin loanwords in Welsh is probably much greater than in most other non-Romance languages (another example being Albanian, and English if you count French words of Latin origin). And English structure (morphology and syntax) isn't particularly Romance; in English too it's really only the vocabulary that's been heavily influenced. —Angr 13:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes OK, Welsh is somewhat more heavily influenced than many - but don't forget there are a surprising number of Latin loans even in several of the Slavonic languages; and let's not forget how many basic German words are Latin in origin (Kaese, Mauer etc). But yes, the influence has been heavier on Welsh and English. I'd disagree with you that there's not much Romance influence on English morphology and syntax, although this is probably not the place for such a discussion. With regard to Welsh, I'm often surprised (and, I have to admit, quite pleased) to see how many native words Welsh has kept, and devised, for certain concepts that for so may other languages seem to accept as 'international' (though some, granted, have distant Latin forbears) e.g. cyfalafiaeth, rhyngrwyd, awyren, athro (for professor), not to mention military ranks like cadfridog. garik 14:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the "window of opportunity" for Welsh to borrow words from Latin ended much sooner than with other languages. Words for concepts that arose in the Renaissance are more likely to be native calques (like the ones you mentioned above), while Latin loanwords tend to be for surprisingly mundane objects and basic concepts (saeth "arrow", llaeth "milk", nifer "number"). —Angr 14:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Welsh is classed as a Celtic language because that is what it is. A large number of loan-words or influence by another language generally does not change the Celtic roots and basis of Welsh. siarach 14:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

True - English is rather a special case here (I probably wouldn't go so far as some in thinking of it as a creole, however). And it's interesting how some languages seem happy to leave these windows of opportunity open, while others seem to try to shut it firm. Angr, do you happen to know anything about the origins of llefrith? I've often wondered if it and llaeth were both developments from the same Latin source, or whether llefrith was a Celtic cognate. garik 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Not off the top of my head. I'm at work right now, but I can look it up in the GPC when I get home. —Angr 14:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, according to GPC, llefrith (originally meaning "new/fresh milk" more specifically than just "milk") is dissimilated from *lleflith, which is a compound of *llef "soft" (cf. Old Irish lem) and blith "milking". Old Irish has a similar compound lemlacht with the same first element, which also underwent dissimilation to lemnacht. Both forms leamhnacht and leamhlacht "new milk" are around in Modern Irish. According to the Dictionary of the Irish Language the second element of lemlacht is the Latin loanword lacht, but I think that it (like the Welsh) could also come from *lemo-mlixti-, in which case the entire compound would go back at least to Proto-Insular Celtic. —Angr 18:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

English certainly has a massive number of French (and therefore mostly ultimately Latin) words, but interestingly something like 90 percent of the words used in every day, informal conversations are of Germanic origin. Furthermore, the French derived words tend to refer to more abstact or technical concepts. As far as I can gather, the very opposite is true in Welsh. The Latin words form the bulk of every day words for mundane things such as "window", "shit" "god" "horse", days of week - and these are just picked at random. It is almost as if there was a dialect of Latin that was later overlaid with a Celtic dialect, in the same way that English was later overlaid with French. TharkunColl 14:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... ffenest "window" is a loanword from Latin, but windows are relatively new technology in human history (and German Fenster is borrowed from the same source). Cach "shit" isn't a loanword from Latin; it's from *kakka, and calling shit kakka or kaka is almost as universal as calling your mother mamma or mama. Duw "God" isn't a loanword from Latin either; it's cognate to Deus but not derived from it. Ceffyl "horse" is a loanword from Latin, but for some reason European languages are fond of replacing that word with others (practically no single modern European language's word for horse is derived from *h₁ekwos). The idea of a 7-day week with each day having a name spread throughout Europe with the Romans; even in the Germanic languages the names are simply translations of the Latin. I don't think it's true that the vast majority of words used in everyday Welsh are of Latin origin, though a hefty chunk of them are. —Angr 15:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diglossia: Literary vs. Colloquial Welsh

Some examples of sentences with roughly the same meaning written in the two registers would be very informative TheVenerableBede 10:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. I hope people approve of the examples chosen. garik 12:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)