Talk:Wellesley College Senate bus

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Wellesley College Senate Bus. —Nightstallion (?) 08:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Fuck Truck → Wellesley Senate bus – disambiguation; also, using common names does not mean using ambiguous slang names. Note this survived a recent Afd with "no consensus".

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support. Google shows that "fuck truck" has various other meanings, including a panel van with interior carpeting. The title should include "Wellesley" in it somewhere for clarity. While we use common names in titles, we should not necessarily use slang terms, especially highly local slang expression of very limited geographic and demographic usage. -- Curps 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support. This whole thing seems a bit silly, given that they both point to the same article already. Meh, I'll guess go ahead and support anyway since the less ambiguous of the two terms should probably be used for the "official" article name. --Alan Au 02:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support although I still believe the name should be "Senate bus" as it services three schools. The following table is copied from Wikipedia:Naming_conflict.

Criterion	Fuck truck	Senate bus
1. Most commonly used name in English	0	1
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	0	1
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	0	1
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

Criteria 2 and 3 are not subjective. The Wellesley Transportation site uses the name "Senate bus". As for criterion 1, an informal poll of what people at MIT call the bus resulted in 12 out of 14 respondents answering "Senate bus", with one responding "Wellesley bus" and one responding "fuck truck". All student publications at MIT and Wellesley, including Counterpoint (MIT-Wellesley magazine) and The Tech (MIT newspaper) use the term "Senate bus" exclusively, with no mention of a "fuck truck" (see blockquote in article). Even if criterion 1 is awarded to "fuck truck", the total is still 2-1 in favor of "Senate bus". Isopropyl 02:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment:See an alternative analysis based on this chart below. Interestingstuffadder 17:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose "Fuck Truck" is a genuine piece of American folkore, by now. It should be preserved. If there is any ambiguity to its usage per User:Curps, it should be reflected on a proper disambiguation page. -- Mareklug ^talk 20:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support: to me, a Fuck Truck is an old VW Microbus. Bubba ditto 01:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose: The Senate Bus is not the only university shuttle that is known as a "fuck truck". I have already verified one other shuttle referred to this way (included, with citation, in the article) and have a list of several others for which I am still seeking a solid citation (I plan to work on this when I return from spring break). Simply put, the shuttle running between Wellesley, MIT and Harvard is not notable unto itself. What is notable is the more general concept -- apparently prevalent in university folklore across the country -- of a "fuck truck". The Wellesley Senate Bus is particuarly relevant to exploring this folkloric meaning because it has gotten so much media attention that deals with the gender/sexuality issues raised by the continued use of this term. However, this article should not ultimately be about this one bus (which would likley not be sufficiently notable); instead, it should be about the general concept of fuck truck and make reference to other schools where this and similar terms (eg fuck bus) are used. A senate bus specific article would preclude this breadth. As for other uses of fuck truck (re VW Bus/ boogie van), if there is ambiguity, perhaps a disambiguation [age would be needed to point to these other meanings.

This analysis changes the outcome of the above chart:

• 1. Most commonly used name in English -- if talking about the general term, fuck truck is more commonly used because senate bus aqpplies only to the MIT bus and fuck truck applies generally -- point to fuck truck
• 2. Current undisputed official name of entity -- true, this would go to the senate bus if this article were solely about that non notable bus. But this article should not be solely about this one shuttle
• 3. Current self-identifying name of entity -- the more general concept is identified by students as fuck truck. senate bus is only used for this one shuttle. "self identifying" is dificul here -- of course none of these buses call themselves fuck truck. rather, the name fuck truck has been given by students at colleges served by these buses. This usage among students is what makes this notable folklore (and it is this role as notable folklore that justifies inclusion in wikipedia in the first place).

Interestingstuffadder 17:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Interestingstuff, while I agree with most of your points, it would appear that this article is about the MIT-Wellesley Senate bus and the perception of Wellesley and MIT students. The only mention of other shuttles is a brief two-sentence description at the bottom of the page. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to make separate articles: one for the Senate bus, and another more general article for other shuttles. I also disagree on the issue of notability; in my mind, the MIT-Wellesley shuttle is notable, as it has been featured prominently in several publications, while the attention paid to other "fuck trucks" remains to be proven. But in any case, this article should be about this particular bus (as it is right now) and information about other shuttles would probably be best in another article, with links between them. Isopropyl 19:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose: For reasons similar to those provided by interestingstuffadder. this is a folklore-type term widely used at colleges across the US. the senate bus alone is not sifficiently notable to justify an article, but the discussion of it is very helpful in providing context for the more generally used term. although mentions of other shuttles is limited now, I imagine this section has potential to grow, thus leading to a richer discussion of the term and its uses at numerous colleges and universities. Captaintruth 19:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
• SUPPORT -- I'm of the same opinion as Alan Au. Mustang dvs 19:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support - clearly. If we're going to have an article about this shuttle, it's got to be using the official name, not some name made up by kids in school one day. FCYTravis 22:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: it would be more helpful if you would actually respond to my argument for keeping it here -- this is not "somename made up by kids at school one day"; instead, it is a notable piece of collegiate slang/folklore used at colleges across the country. There is nothing notable about this specific shuttle; what is notable is the more general conceptof "fuck truck". Interestingstuffadder 23:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment - I really don't see it as anything particularly notable at colleges. I'm finding very few, if any, relevant Google results. I see lots of urbandictionary style "fuck truck, a van with a mattress in the back" stuff, but that's just a dicdef and not a very notable one at that. If you can come up with some verifiable and reliable sources which verify that such a concept of college buses being called "fuck trucks" has gained currency and usage outside Harvard and Yale students, I'll consider your argument. Right now, the fact that it's called a "fuck truck" is perhaps worthy of a small trivia mention somewhere. It's not particularly notable or interesting, given that students make up allegedly funny nicknames for a lot of things, usually while under the influence of various mind-altering substances. As long as the entire article focuses on this one bus route, it should be properly referred to by its title, not what a few drunk students call it. If I'm looking for information in an encyclopedia about a bus route between two colleges, I'm sure as heck not going to think to type in "Fuck Truck." FCYTravis 23:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: But I suspect most would argue that a college shuttle bus route alone is not sufficiently notable to merit a wikipedia article in the first place and, as such, would merit deletion. Interestingstuffadder 01:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Common usage appears to be "fuck truck" (27,500 Google hits), not ""Wellesley Senate bus" (55 Google hits). Silensor 11:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not sure why that is relevant. Many of the top hits for "fuck truck" were porn movies that have nothing to do with this article. I'm sure many of the hits for "fuck truck" are also references to vans with carpeting in the back, and have nothing to do with the subject of this article. Catamorphism 19:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: A strong case has been made that fuck truck is the more notable term. Cooldude02 19:34, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

• Support - I agree, for the most part, with comments above from FCYTravis. I think an article on Wellesley Senate bus would sufficently notable, particularly as there are articles such as Humphrey Go-Bart, Unitrans, or even London Buses route 1. As Bubba ditto points out, the term Fuck Truck means different things to different people, the meaning of which can be summarized within a typical dictionary definition. RXUYDC 18:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support per above. Jonathunder 23:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support, though I don't think a shuttle bus needs an article, but if it does, use a real name, not some vulgar sophmoric slang. Thumbelina 23:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Comment: The page should be moved to "Wellesley College Senate Bus", not "Wellesley Senate Bus", because the bus is operated by Wellesley College, not by the town of Wellesley. Catamorphism 07:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I believe this page should be moved to "Senate bus" (or "Senate Bus") as it serves three schools. Isopropyl 07:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: The bus is solely operated by Wellesley College. In addition, the phrase "Senate bus" doesn't make sense on its own because the "Senate" refers to the Wellesley College student senate, not to the United States Senate or any other Senate. Catamorphism 07:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: The above comments taken together underscore the problematic nature of any proposed move, which would dilute the encyclopedic value of having the Fuck Truck article in the first place. There does not appear to be a consensus as what to move the page to -- witness the recent failed AfD vote. Mareklug ^talk 20:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment. A slang expression whose use and understanding is limited to students at three universities in the northeast US can hardly be elevated to the status of "genuine American folklore". If you ask students at say, Stanford or Cornell what the "Fuck Truck" is, you will draw a blank, to say nothing of non-students and residents of the rest of the USA and the world. And it's a mere slang expression after all, the equivalent of having our article on Chicago at Windy City, or New Orleans at The Big Easy. -- Curps 20:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

CommentThere is evidence that this term is used at colleges across the country (see the deletion debate). I have been working on verifying these. In fact, the article already contains a verified reference to this term's use beyond the senate bus. Thus, this is in fact a national phenomenon that probably qualifies as folklore. If we narrow the title to senate bus, this article will be precluded from growing to include various other uses of fuck truck. Interestingstuffadder 17:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment. While I respect Catamorphism's opinion and would happily support renaming as per his suggestion, I am a bit confused. I fail to understand why "Senate" cannot refer to the Wellesley Senate. "Bus" does not refer to the Greyhound bus nor any other bus. Isopropyl 21:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: It's well-understood what a bus is, since there are many types of buses, but when Americans see the word "Senate", they think of the United States Senate. They don't think of a student senate at a small college. (Non-Americans are probably even less likely to think of the student senate at a small American college when they see the word "Senate".) It's good to make things as clear as possible. Also, I'm a "their", not a "his". Catamorphism 22:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Apologies. Isopropyl 23:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: If this page is move to Senate Bus or Wellesley Senate Bus, it will become an article bout a non notable subject --- a speciic college shuttle. At that point, an RFD will likley be in order. Interestingstuffadder 23:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: But as it is, it's not an article about the etymology of the term "fuck truck", and unless there is published research on the general term "fuck truck" (as opposed to media stories about the Wellesley "fuck truck"), the general term would not be an appropriate subject for Wikipedia. As it is, the article is about the Wellesley Senate Bus with brief (and mostly unsourced) mentions that the term is used at some other campuses. Catamorphism 23:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: But, as you well know, an article titled "fuck truck" survived a deletion debate,not an article about a Wellesley shuttle bus. Interestingstuffadder 00:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: That doesn't mean that it's necessarily possible to write a well-sourced article about the term "fuck truck". It just means that a sufficient number of people were willing to accept that it might be possible (you'll recall there was no consensus). Catamorphism 00:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment: And there was also no consensus for deletion. That debate occured not too long ago. It still seems very possible for this article to grow to include information about "fuck trucks" in general (in fact, I plan to add this content..I have just been really busy lately). Interestingstuffadder

Comment. "No consensus" is neither a "Keep" nor a "Delete". For reference, the original AfD discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fuck_Truck --Alan Au 08:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I suspect that "Wellesley College Senate Bus" and "Fuck truck" are only notable in a specific, shared context. The reasons I'm leaning towards naming it WCSB are because: the sources reference the particular bus, and WP:NOT a slang dictionary. --Alan Au 08:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.