Talk:Wei Man

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Quote from 史記 朝鮮列傳

聚黨千餘人，魋結蠻夷服而東走出塞，渡浿水，居秦故空地上下鄣...

--Nanshu 01:44, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The existence of King Zhun is suspicious because The Records of the Grand Historian of the same age never referrs to him.

What's wrong with "Chinese direct rule over peninsula?" I don't say "Chinese direct rule over the whole peninsula". --Nanshu 04:39, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I guess you should put 'part of' in front of that.

whatever your speculation of weiman's ethnicity, there is no doubt that he, as the king of a korean kingdom (Wiman Joseon), is a part of korean history. not even chinese nationalist historians claim joseon to be a part of chinese history. this page is linked to from various korean articles, & only one china-related article (and that's only in that article's reference to old Joseon). and "wei man" is not exactly a firmly established english spelling; there is no reason to use the chinese romanization as the title. Appleby 00:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Wikipedia is NOT an encyclopedia of Korean history. You try to push something more than what is deduced from historical sources. In accordance with our NPOV policy, we made room for modern interpretations, but further POV pushing is not tolerated. --Nanshu 00:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

yes please remember that. "wei man" is the chinese romanization; please explain why you believe that the chinese romanization is NPOV, but the korean romanization is POV. please note what articles link to this article. please note that nobody considers Wiman Joseon to be a part of chinese history; it is considered a part of korean history in various english reference works. please do not push your pov without explanation. thanks. Appleby 00:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Stop mixing up two different things:

1. selection of romanization systems, and
2. separation of what is directly deduced from historical sources and the narrative of national history.

You only talked about the former and started an all-or-nothing revert war.

The historical sources of Man are the Shiji (and Hanshu) and the Weile (and Sanguozhi). What is deduced from them has nothing to do with the modern Korean nation. As you know, Koreans narrate it as part of the history of Korea, but such an narrative cannot be put without proper attribution here in Wikipedia, where people with various backgrounds gather to make a new encyclopedia. If you disagree with the relativistic approach, why not create your own Korea-pedia and put your work there?

Various ideas can be included with proper attribution in Wikipedia. We are inclusive in this sense. But we have to select one default romanization system because adding multiple spellings every time is redundant. Which system is the best? Pinyin, I think, because he was from the Yan and recorded in Chinese sources. --Nanshu 10:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

first things first. let's discuss the article naming. the basic rule in wikipedia is to use the common english usage. because wiman is discussed, if at all, by western scholars generally in the context of korea's old joseon, wiman is the more common english spelling. even links to this page within wikipedia are virtually all from korean history articles. it's not a matter of personal opinion, but the reality that wiman is discussed in korean history contexts and spelled from the korean pronunciation. other names in early korean history are found mostly or even exclusively in chinese records (Jin (Korean history), Samhan, not to mention japanese history), but that's no reason to use pinyin, the korean romanization is established in english. Appleby 17:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

let's keep personal opinions out of this & stick to verifiable npov citations. not to say we should rely on google hits for content, but they show the use the "wiman" spelling by western publications in english, and refer to the topic in korean history context:

• A refugee named Wiman founded ... Wiman Choseon. Not only did he keep the Choseon name, he also adopted Choseon customs and culture, in a sense reviving the fallen kingdom. Wiman Choseon exerted a fair amount of power in Asia, but fell in 108 BCE to China. [1]
• Chosn declined, and refugee populations migrated eastward. Out of this milieu, emerged Wiman, a man who assumed the kingship of Chosn sometime between 194 and 180 B.C. The Kingdom of Wiman Chosn melded Chinese influence, and under the Old Chosn federated structure [2]
• Wiman Chosôn (the successor state to Old Chosôn) [3]
• the first Korean ruler recorded in contemporaneous records is Wiman [4]
• 194 BC Northwest Korea united under warlord, Wiman [5]
• Wiman established the state of Chosn (or Wiman Chosn) which was highly Sinified but not a Chinese colony. [6]

also given Wiman Joseon and Gojoseon, the consistent article name of korean monarchs per convention would be "Wiman of Gojoseon." but i'd like to hear more about this larger consistency issue with the personal/temple/posthumous names. Appleby 17:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

So you gave up contending for the second point? If so, I'm glad.

For the first point, my question is: How can we secure fairness in the most-common-name policy? I think we can arbitrarily change the result by changing the scope of survey. In this case, you only referred to "history of Korea" things even though I stressed, "Wikipedia is NOT an encyclopedia of Korean history." If we compare the overall history of China and the overall history of Korea, the weight of Wei Man would be different because China was too large to discuss the situation of a "borderland" in detail. But if you focus on specific issues, say, the history of Yan and that of Pyongyang, we will get a different result. And checking "What links here" doesn't make too much sense because Wikipedia is incomplete. Whether an article exists or not depends on whether it interests active Wikipedians, not on its significance.

So what should we do? I think Man has similar nature to Lelang, Daifang, Gongsun Du, Kang and Yuan, the Chinese stuffs that had to do with the Korean peninsula.

For Gojoseon, you Koreans set up a grand fantasy, but the understanding outside Korea is completely different. I have no time for detailed discussion. In short, we assume the pre-Man situation as depicted in the Shiji:

自始全燕時、嘗略屬真番、朝鮮，為置吏，築鄣塞．秦滅燕，屬遼東外徼．漢興，為其遠難守，復修遼東故塞，至浿水為界，屬燕．

--Nanshu 00:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

• WP:UE: "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."
• WP:V: "English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly."
• See English citations above. Appleby 01:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

As Yuje said, Bohai and Man stuffs parallel each other. I guess you are unable to rebut. --Nanshu 11:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Even though Wei Man came from China, Wiman Joseon is Korean history.--Hairwizard91 09:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move