Talk:Warren, St. Croix County, Wisconsin

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[edit] Does anyone know where the town of Warren is?

I live in Warren and there is no town of Warren. It's country with smaller villages forming around Roberts, Wisconsin. How can you call Warren a town? It's not. It's a township that governs itself! (69.58.137.80; previously unsigned)

In the state of Wisconsin, "towns" are the same as townships in other states, that is to say they are self-administering subdivisions of the county. There is no such thing as a township in Wisconsin. The town of Warren is listed on page 765 of the Wisconsin Blue Book, the official guide to Wisconsin government. [1] --BaronLarf 18:15, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Something is wrong with it. A Town is a lot of houses grouped together. Houses in Warren, WI are spread out with multiple house lots in different spots.

Roberts, WI is the village correct? We both know that. Warren is the township of Roberts because some dumbass refused to call it Township of Roberts! GET IT! It's probably the last remaining township in Wisconsin. --RenegadevikingLarf 8:28AM UTC)

Why then does the website say "Town of Warren" and not "Township"? HollyAm 02:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Everything outside of Roberts, WI is Township of Warren. It's connected to Township of Hudson which has the uncommissioned village of Burtcart within it, Township of Hammond, and Township of New Richmond. The Wisconsin Blue Book gives Warren Township's Town Hall the authority to call itself a town even if it isn't. Warren Township has more local government powers than surrounding townships such as presidential electrical voting are done at the Warren town hall. We don't have our own fire department or police department, or public school. That's how it is. Renegadeviking 23:38, 02 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding things. It is my understanding that in Wisconsin, as BaronLarf explains, above a "township" is called a "town." Think of it as being more efficient (4 letters vs. 8!), but we are talking about the same thing (po-tay-toe vs. po-tah-toe). There is a whole list of towns in Wisconsin and all of them are talking about something more like "townships" and not "cities" or "villages". There are two references on this talk page (the Blue Book, which has been through many revisions, and Warren's own website) suggesting that the preferred wordage is "town". If you want to change it to "township", then you will need to provide references to the contrary. Thanks. HollyAm 19:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, "town"s in Wisconsin are not the same as townships in other states, simply because the administrative meaning of "township" varies from state to state in which it is used. In some states, townships are convenient subdivisions used primarily only by surveyors, with no real administrative function. (See Township (United States)) Wisconsin's towns are defined legally, not vernacularly, and that's where "Renegadeviking" seems to be having a problem. In the vernacular, even in Wisconsin, Wisconsin towns are frequently referred to as "townships", but they are legally known only as towns. For example, I live in the Town of Washington, which is what I tell people, if they ask what part of "town" (Eau Claire area) I live in... and if they say "where's that?", I tell them "it's the township directly south of the city limits (distinguishing, by "city limits", between the legal meaning of "city", and the vernacular meaning, which means simply "a collection of houses and whatnot, bigger than a (vernacular) town"). It's all very confusing (or not so much), but WP is constrained to use the terminology on the books, not in the vernacular. The fact that Wisconsin "town"s are similar to "township"s elsewhere, is spelled out fairly clearly in civil township... (un)interestingly enough, they are also called "town"s in New England and New York... Tomer^TALK 00:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a saying if you live outside Town (in this case outside Roberts, Hammond, or New Richmond, WI) you live in a township. A place with county roads with corn, wheat, grassy fields, where tractors are street legal, farm barns, beef cattle, Diary cows, and densely wooded acres, a number of large lakes or moats. That's called a township here. Towns have none of these features. All the homes in the township have 3 acres lots or more whereas a Town house would have 0.5 acre to 1.5 acre. That's why there is township.

Hunters usually don't hunt animals in populated areas either since I hear shotgun discharges outside my window.

Americans still use the word township. Brits do not cause they believe township is an obsolete word. Renegadeviking 19:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but WP is constrained to use the legal definition of municipalities, not the vernacular. A note could be inserted in the civil township article indicating that (at least in Wisconsin), they are called "townships" in the vernacular, but it is inappropriate to change the usage in Wikipedia because of the vernacular, which would be classified as a change based on something included in Wikipedia's definition and prohibition of original research. We're not discussing here what the definition of "township" vs. "town" is, based on the number of cows per square mile, but whether or not it's appropriate for WP to decide that the state of Wisconsin has a right to call its minor civil divisions by whatever legal name it wishes to. If we take a position to that effect, we're not only violating WP:NOR, but WP:NPOV. Cheers, from Eau Claire County's Town of Washington, and yes, I live in a township. Tomer^talk 22:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

There isn't a "Welcome to Town of Warren Population 1,320" Instead it says "Roberts, Population 930." If Warren is a commissioned town it shall have a green commissioned town sign. Townships don't have these signs so it is clearly a township. Our mailing address doesn't say Warren 54023. It says Roberts 54023! There definately isn't a village called Warren, because there are 8 - 10 seperate villages outside Roberts (mostly on Badlands Rd.) in Warren. It's true that Warren was a township in the late 80s. Renegadeviking 16:28, 06, December 2005 (UTC).

Maybe you should put up a sign.  :-) About 3 blocks south of my house, there's a sign that says "Welcome to the Town of Washington". The issue here is that the legal meaning of "town" (and "village", for that matter), in Wisconsin, is different from their vernacular meaning, even in Wisconsin. As I've said previously, WP is constrained to use the legal term. Similarly, nobody in Wisconsin would use the term "village" to describe Menomonee Falls, with its 32k+ people, yet legally it is a village, and so we have to call it a village on WP. If you go to the Warren Town Hall (note, not Township Hall), you'll see the sign there doesn't say "Township of Warren". Tomer^talk 01:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not marked as Warren on the map stupid! It's a township! Renegadeviking

Please review WP:NPA. In an effort to stop this from becoming an edit war, I am sending emails to both the Town of Warren's Town Clerk Deina Shirmer, and the state of Wisconsin's Attorney General, requesting clarification of the Town's name and status, as well as the status of Towns within the governmental framework of the state of Wisconsin. See the following section for echoes of the relevant emails sent, as well as (hopefully), the responses received. Tomer^talk 09:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requests for clarification

I have emailed the Town of Warren's Town Clerk, Deina Shirmer, according to http://www.townofwarren.com/board.htm, at townofwarrenwi@msn.com, as follows:

Subject: nature of Town of Warren

Greetings, Ms. Shirmer,

My username on Wikipedia is TShilo12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TShilo12). I have recently, much to my chagrin, found myself in a content conflict with another editor, apparently a resident of the Town of Warren, Wikipedia user Renegadeviking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Renegadeviking), who insists that the proper name for the Town of Warren is improper, in fact, that it should be called the "Township of Warren", or "Warren Township", and who insists on calling the minor civil division by that name, and characterization. I would like for you to clarify what is the legal name of the civil division in question (i.e., that described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren,_St._Croix_County,_Wisconsin), as well as its legal status in the framework of Wisconsin municipalities. Additionally, I would appreciate any information you could provide regarding the history of the Town, specifically when it was first organized as such (the user in question claims that it was first organized as a Town[ship, as he claims] independent of the village of Roberts, in 2004). I humbly apologize for having to drag you into this conflict, but in order to squelch the dispute, your input is essential.

I will be posting the content of this email to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Warren,_St._Croix_County,_Wisconsin and hope you'll be willing to permit me to post your response there as well. I thank you in advance for your time and attention in this matter.

Sincerely yours,

-t

RESPONSE

The Town of Warren was established on Nov 25, 1858. In Wisconsin towns are called towns, not townships...in Minnesota they are called townships; hence the confusion. Many residents in the community mistakenly refer to the town as Warren township. As far as legal status, the town is a municipality with the power to enforce state statutes, and create additional ordinances as deemed necessary.

A better source for the legal status would be the Wisconsin Towns Association. They have lawyers, and a helpful staff that represent towns at the state level. This group is always helpful to promote town government.

I hope this helps direct your conversations....Deina Shirmer, Clerk/Treasurer

• If necessary, I guess the next step will be to contact the Wisconsin Towns Association [2]. Tomer^talk 17:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

This is interesting... I'm not looking to get involved in the debate but was wondering when this township -vs- town definition change? For instance, my understanding was that the Wisconsin Territorial Legislature established a number of Townships, Lake being one of them. As local government grew (and the township was being annexed by Milwaukee et-al) at some point it started being referred to as the Town of Lake. 72.131.44.247 18:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah. Another interesting reason to write them.  :-D Tomer^talk 18:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sent to Sarah Burhop, on the staff of Wisc. State Senator Dave Zien, at sarah.burhop@legis.state.wi.us (address found at [3]:

Subject: rôle of Towns in the Wisconsin legal structure

Greetings, salutations, and the like...

I am wondering if you could provide me with a reference (an online link preferably, although it need not be), clarifying the rôle of "Town"s in the state of Wisconsin, especially one that discusses their relationship to "townships" in other states. This is in order to help resolve an editing dispute ongoing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Warren,_St._Croix_County,_Wisconsin ... I will be posting the content of this email there, and hope you will not object to my posting your reply there as well.

Thanks so much for your time and consideration in this matter,

-t

Deina Shirme is a fat out liar. She doesn't want Wikipedia to know it's a township cos it affects her polical statis as Treasurer of Warren. It's not on the map. It's too big of area to be a town. These image shows every town in St. Croix County. There isn't one green commissioned town sign in the area. Renegadeviking

Image:RobertsWI.png.jpg Image:RobertsWI2.png

Renegadeviking, no one is denying that Warren is a minor civil division and as such is usually not to be found on a map, and if it were it definitely would not be a point on a map since it is a 35 square mile civil division. To address your point about Warren being too big to be a town: the town of Winter is 285 square miles. Town size varies. And it doesn't make sense to me that the treasurer would lie about this as that would jeopardize her political status. Anyhow...here is some information from page 115 of The Changing World of Wisconsin Local Government, Wisconsin Blue Book 1997-1998. I quote:

The difference between "township" and "town" often confuses the public. In Wisconsin, "township" refers to the surveyor's township which was laid out to idenfity land parcels within a county. The typical township was a square, measuring six miles on a side for a total of 36 square miles in the unit. [...] "Town", as the word is used in Wisconsin, denotes a specific unit of government. It may coincide with the surveyor's township or it may look quite different because the boundaries of local governments have changed over the years. In some of the northern Wisconsin counties, surveyor's townships were combined to form larger towns to facilitate governing more sparsely settled areas.

Since, according to our Wikipedia article (of which its source in turn is the U.S. Census Bureau), Warren is 35.3 square miles, very close to the 36 square miles of a surveyor's township as described above. Therefore, it seems likely to me that the Town of Warren happens to coincide with a township...so it may indeed be a township too. But the legal government name for Warren, however, is "Town". HollyAm 05:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)