Talk:War of the Priests

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article and especially its title look somewhat implausible. I have never read of such a war in Polish historiography. What is the name of this war in Polish? How could the little Bishopric of Warmia fight a war against the much bigger Kingdom of Poland for 12 years? Furthermore, as it stands, the actual description of the war takes all of two sentences of the article. To quote the passage:

War

In 1467, the chapter elected Nicolaus of Tüngen who was not accepted by Polish King Casimir IV. This resulted in a war in which the bishopric was supported by the Teutonic Order and Matthias Corvinus, the Hungarian king.

Is that all there was to this war? What were the actual military operations, forces involved, casualties and commanders? I ask the creator of the article to please provide this additional information, hopefully backed by English language sources. Balcer 21:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

And the "war" ended in 1479-they must had significant forces at their disposal ;) I think this is simply some dispute that settled through mediation with perhaps some skirmishes(If at all). Perhaps soon we shall learn about "war" in Torun when Jesuit collage was sacked ;) --Molobo 22:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Yawn-seems an overblown dispute by some German editor. Here it reads: http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/15cen/pfaffenkrieg14671479.html In the Prussian War or Thirteen Years War 1454-1466, the Prussian Federation had seceded from the state of the Teutonic Order. In 1454 the Prussian Federation had requested and received Polish protection, and in the Second Peace of Thorn (Torun), the Teutonic Order recognized the sovereignty of the King of Poland over Royal Prussia, which included the Stift of Warmia. Upon the death of the bishop, King Casimir IV. Andreas in 1467 appointed a Pole, Vincent Kielbasa, as the new bishop of Warmia. The Warmian Cathedral Chapter at Heilsberg resisted, and a feud lasting 12 years ensued. The Cathedral Chapter elected Nikolaus von Tüngen. The Estates of Royal Prussia did not take the side of the Cathedral Chapter, as their autonomous, semi-independent status, recently gained, depended on Polish protection, and the trade of her major city, Danzig, depended on her virtual monopoly in the Polish grain export trade. Nicholas von Tüngen allied himself with the Teutonic Order and with King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. The feud thus was a low scale affair, affecting mainly Warmia. In 1478, Braunsberg withstood a Polish siege. It was ended by agreement; the king recognized bishop von Tüngen and the right of the Cathedral Chapter to elect future bishops (which had to promise to elect a person acceptable to the king), the privileges of the city of Heilsberg, capital of the bishopric, were extended. Bishop and Cathedral Chapter had to swear loyalty to the king. In 1512 (Treaty of Petrikau) the Cathedral Chapter had to accept the king's right to choose 4 candidates for the office of bishop, all of whom had to be born in Royal Prussia. --Molobo 22:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

However as this seems to be based on purely personal webpages. I would like a more objective sources. Otherwise it fits deletion. --Molobo 22:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

In Polish it is known widely as "wojna popia". And, indeed is called "war". Szopen 13:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. With the right term, one can quickly find useful information. Thus we have Wojna popia described in Polish online encyclopedia, WIEM. That article says the war took place in 1478-1479, which is a much more believable timespan. The war is described as a military takeover of Warmia by Casimir IV. Not much of a war, but if WIEM has an article on it, Wikipedia should as well. Still, it will need to be rewritten to avoid the impression that it was a "Twelve years war". Balcer 14:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Balcer! First you did not even know about that event (Molobo believed it's just some sort of German nationalism... his usual behavior) and argue that Warmia couldn't have done that. Then you said that you finally found out the "right term" - are the others hence false?. And, surprise!, even in Polish it's called a "war" (Thanks to Szopen who contributes often interesting stuff!). It's very nice that you add useful information like the Polish name or more details about the military operations. However, you ignore one information, which states the conflict begun in 1467. The term "war" sometimes refers to conflicts which were not a complete chain of battles (in the Hundred Years' War there were even years without any military action). Anyway, if you say, that WIEM is a reliable encyclopedia, it's okay for the dates. But now the article clearly states: "Tungen took over Warmia", which says, that Tungen did it somehow illegally. My version was neutral in the sense that I did not say if Tungen or the Polish King was right. Now it shows your POV: Poland was right in any case. That view was not shared by the chapter or the bishop, who was at least acknowledged by the Pope. That the conflict between bishopric and kingdom perhaps not fit your claim of Warmia as an "integral part of Poland" is a different story. I have not enough time to correct that twice a day and additionally I am not interested in more discussions with Molobo, who is not well informed, but easily sees a conspiracy of German nationalists working throughout the world. For some time I believed you are interested in history and a good and possibly neutral encyclopedia. Please ask yourself, if that's a good job you've done. Respectful. --Dagox 16:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dagox! I simply expanded slightly what is still a stub, so feel free to expand and improve on my formulations. BTW, I never said that this war did not happen, it only struck me that a war lasting 12 years would have been more prominently mentioned in the Polish history books I read. Upon checking an encyclopedic source, it indeed emerged that my hunch was correct, and that the war lasted 2 years (the dispute might have lasted longer, not the war). The expression "took over Warmia" comes from translating the brief mention of that in the WIEM entry. I admit that sounds awkward. Feel free to improve it. Clearly the article is just a stub at this point, and requires considerable rewriting.

Let's also keep in mind that rebellions against central authority, for one reason or another, were quite common in that era of European history. I would be cautious in calling a region independent, just because it had a dispute and a brief war with the larger political entity to which it belonged. Balcer 16:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW, according to my sources, Polish forces took over whole Warmia and Mikolaj Tungen had to escape to TO. It's not clear to me why Casimir then accepted him back as bishop - was it due to international situation, personal liking of the king fo any other reason? Szopen 10:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicolaus Tungen

I created this article by translating from the corresponding article in Polish Wiki. It has quite a lot of overlap with the article here. Balcer 02:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems like a local feudal feud that was common in past ages. Btw Braniewo withstood dozens of sieges from various sides. As the article as Balcer pointed out overlaps with Nicolaus Tungen I think it should be merged with it. --Molobo 23:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, with all due respect, I disagree. Wojna Popia is and event which has its own entries in Polish encyclopedias. It is not major event, and constantly mentioning it with evertyhing related to Royal Prussia starts to act on my nerves, but it does deserve it's own entry. It should be detalailed version of short paragraph in Nicolaus Tungen article. Szopen 08:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)