Talk:Wangfujing

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Wangfujing isn't really THAT beautiful. Seems like NPOV is off here.

[edit] Dazhalan vs. Dashilar

I do understand that most people in Beijing pronounce 大栅栏 Dashilar. But, please, could someone explain to me why this excludes entering "Dazhalan" as well. I'm somewhat puzzled why these kind of reversions occur.--Niohe 02:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It is erroneous to refer to it as Dazhalan, and to include it in parentheses implies that it is an acceptable alternative, when clearly it is not. --Taoster 11:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Unacceptable, to whom? Is this some kind of joke, or what?

I get more hits when I Google Dazhalan (1000) than when I Google Dashilar (315). I even find semi-official websites like this one. Not that Google is a the final authority or that semi-official websites have the last word, but at least the name is in use.

What is going on here on Wikipedia? Why is it that you find yourself in an edit war when you enter seemingly trivial information?--Niohe 13:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I suspect what Taoster means is that "Dazhalan" is not really used. It doesn't mean that it's unacceptable or offensive, just that locals don't really pronounce it this way. Kinda like how Nevadans say Ne-vad-duh, not Ne-vah-duh. -- ran (talk) 14:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in. So can we put Dazahalan in parenthesis after Dashilar, then? Or will this lead to an edit war? I will wait a little bit for a response from User:Taoster before I edit to this effect.--Niohe 14:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a valid alternative because it's a misreading, and Wikipedia should not serve to further popularize distortions of pronunciation. I will inquire at the zh-wiki [1] for details regarding the official naming convention of the street in question. --Taoster 15:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I have already established that the pronunciation "Dazhalan" is as valid as the colloquial "Dashilar". Did you even bother to have a look at the site I qouted, or what? Let me remind you that the burden of proof rests on you, not me.--Niohe 15:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For something so "trivial", you seem to be making an awfully big fuss about it. --Taoster 16:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

And you don't, I take it?--Niohe 16:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't consider the matter to be trivial, nor have I never stated otherwise. --Taoster 17:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly my point. Why are you making a fuss about this? And why don't you seem to be even interested in evidence that refutes your argument to exclude Dazhalan?--Niohe 17:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm making a "fuss" over it because it's a blatant error that should be corrected. That's why. The question is, why are you bickering over something that is (per your above comment) "seemingly trivial" in nature? --Taoster 18:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

To say that something is "seemingly trivial" doesn't mean that you consider it trivial.--Niohe 18:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

So then why even bother denouncing trivial edit wars in the first place when you clearly did not regard the matter as being trivial? --Taoster 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ahem, all of a sudden this turned into my new talk page. How comes? I thought we were having a discussion about the appropriate way of Romanizing an area in Beijing. I was a bit puzzled that for all the sources and arguments I put forward, most of what I was getting from you were expressions like "erroneous," not being "acceptable," "distortions," and "misreading."--Niohe 00:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The usage of "Dashilar" has a documented history of well over a hundred years. If you don't believe the Chinese Wikipedia article, then I suggest that you consult a copy of the Beijing historical compendium "日下旧闻考", which provides a detailed entry as to how the name actually came about (it's a rough back-transliteration of the Manchu word for "coral"). Its usage is so widespread nowadays that it has become an irrevocable part of Beijing's history, and to knowingly use the incorrect pronunciation in referencing it is effectively an insult to the culture of Beijing. It is one of the few cases wherein the principle of "约定俗成" (to become the rule through common practice) has actually changed the conventional reading of a character in a specific context. Furthermore, are you aware that there IS a place called Dazhalan (same characters) within Beijing proper? We are talking about the street off of Qianmen Avenue, right? If so, then the correct name is Dashilar, which is the name by which it has been known for over a century. The fact that you initially called it a "joke" is reason enough for anyone to be alarmed. --Taoster 03:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, we're talking business at last and you are providing us with some information. Thank you! While I maintan that it would be misleading to delete "Dazhalan", we now have some good stuff to work with and a possible explanation about the origins of this pronunciation. I will go and check my Manchu dictionary and see if there is such a word. And yes, we're talking about the street just outside Qianmen.

Where is this other Dazhalan, by the way?

The reason I said "joke" is that you repeatedly made blanket statements like "errroneous" and "misleading", without giving any evidence or trying to refute what I said. Wikipedia is a place where we discuss things, not just say "you're wrong" without giving any reasons. I never called the name a "joke", if you read my contributions carefully, you'll understand that.--Niohe 11:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell me, why do you insist on adding superfluous information that is clearly invalidated by credible sources? Placing "Dazhalan" in parentheses gives off the wrong idea and undermines the cultural significance of the name, and I've already explained to you the rationale behind this. Please, don't lecture me on your idea of what Wikipedia is or is not. You've already demonstrated your level of composure in a discussion-based setting when you went into a baffled fit up there. --Taoster 17:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to dignify this statement above by commenting on it, other than saying that you might need to review Wikipedia's policies on civility .

Now, I going to comment on your substantive arguments, which you made earlier, and I sincerely hope that you will respond to this. I checked two Manchu dictionaries, and they give the following terms for "coral" (珊瑚): bidarun and shuru. This does not seem to bear out the theory that Dashilar derive from a Manchu term meaning "coral".

"日下旧闻考", which you quoted, seems to be an interesting source, which I would like to check myself. Could you please give me the exact reference where the author refers to the origins of Dashilar?--Niohe 19:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

A worthwhile read, but you're not in a position to remind others of civil conduct. Anyhow, refer to 《钦定日下旧闻考》 卷59 for the passage in question. --Taoster 14:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are referring to as regards my "civil conduct" or lack thereof, but thanks for the reference. You didn't say anything the Manchu words I checked out; what is your comment?--Niohe 15:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The reading of Dashilar is derived from 沙剌 ( a variant reading of 栅栏) which was transliterated into Manchu as 珊瑚, or shuru, as you had mentioned. This was then back-transliterated into Chinese as 舒鲁. Over time, the retroflex intial "zh" became softened somewhat into the "sh" sound, and the addition of the 儿化韵 to the 栏 character yielded the modern pronunciation of Dashilar. --Taoster 16:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

This makes some sense, thanks. On which page in 《钦定日下旧闻考》 卷59 is this discussed?--Niohe 16:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The pages aren't indexed. You have to look through the volume to locate it. --Taoster 17:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have the same edition as I do, there are page numbers in the lower left and right corner of the wood block edition (usually they cover two pages in a Western book). It would help if you'd give me that info, otherwise, I'll try to make do without.--Niohe 17:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The version that I have is not the wood block edition; it condenses the original text into four volumes. The annotation reads: "舒鲁满州语珊瑚也。旧作沙剌今译改。" --Taoster 17:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll have a closer look at the book when I have time, and then I start working on an article on Dashilar (aka Dazhalan).--Niohe 17:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Do what you will. --Taoster 17:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's all calm down and have a figurative cup of nice oolong tea. =) I believe we can all agree on the facts here: Dashilar is the customary pronunciation used by locals, while Dazhalan is what a visitor would say, reading off the name character by character.--Niohe 17:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I propose that:

• The article should be at Dashilar, and Dazhalan redirects to it.
• All external references should be "Dashilar" or "Dashilar (Dazhalan)".
• Dashilar should contain an explanation of the two names.

-- ran (talk) 16:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I second that, thanks for the tea by the way!--Niohe 16:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a fine idea. By the way, is "lar" a valid reading for any character in Pǔtōnghuà?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 20:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope, the only rhotic syllable with corresponding characters is er. All other rhotic syllables arise from the addition of the suffix -r 兒 / 儿. -- ran (talk) 23:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)