Talk:Wandervogel
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[edit] Wandervögel?
Perhaps this should be moved to Wandervögel? Haiduc 23:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, Wandervögel is the plural, but the movement in total is usually referred to as Wandervogel. But one could think about a redirect from there to here. LARS 13:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] French Movement
Actually although I am quite well informed about the Wandervogel movement and the German Youth Movement in general I never heard of a French Wandervogel. Did they really develop from the German movement. If so, how? You imply, that they still exist. If so, how many are there today? It seems to me, that there is quite an different perception from the German Wandervogel. We should therefore take care to differentiate between both. Regarding the German Wandervogel (which is AFAIK still the original one) anarchism is definitely misleading. The same goes for pedarasty. There were cases of attraction, but the movement was definitely about hiking, group and nature experience, not about political ideologies or sexuality. LARS 13:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sadly, the informations on the French movement are correct, there may also be a Swiss wing [1], but I don't have any reliable informations on this. As far as I know, the French have connections to the de:Freibund and the Sturmvogel, an offspring of the Wiking-Jugend, all of them on the extreme right. --jergen 16:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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- The anarchism aspect is played up by the modern French, but it is far from a "hippie" anarchism. Historicall, I had the impression that there was a definite counterculture bent to the movement, but I have not studied it deeply enough to argue either way. Haiduc 16:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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- AFAIK the anarchism mentioned by the modern French "Oiseaux migrateurs" concerns mainly their own organisation, but isn't directed to society or politics; thus I think this article doesn't belong in the Category:Anarchism. --jergen 16:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Unfortunately I am not able to read the French article. But anyway one does not have to accept, that 'there is a French wing of the Wandervogel', even if there is a French group, which calls and sees itsself as such. I am quite sceptical about what such a 'French Wandervogel' has really in common with the original and also the current Wandervogel groups in Germany. LARS 15:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] My changes
- remove of motto: The historic movement had no common motto, this is misleading.
- remove of mention of pederasty: I haven't read anything concerning pederasty, although I studied most of the important texts on the Wandervogel including de:Hans Blüher.
- information given on the origin of the Jungwandervogel is correct
- remove of members: none of them was part of the Wandervogel, so I don't see why they are mentioned here
- actual membership: change to 5,000 (estimated); none of the 2 or 3 larger organizations has more than 1,000 members, so I think 10 to 20,000 is quite to high --jergen 16:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Non of your sources mentions the Wandervogel or his members as pederastic; they stress mainly the homoeroticism of the movement. And also - none of the pages is a scientific source; since this is a very emotional (and also political) question, I think we shouldn't add pederasty in the article because somebody wrote this word and (somewhere else in the same article) the word Wandervogel. --jergen 17:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC) --jergen 17:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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I am sorry if my references were a bit hasty, I was rushed at the time. However, I am not convinced that the elimination of all references to pederasty from the article is a service to our readers. I am not looking to cast aspersions on the movement, simply to document it. How do you reconcile your study of Hans Bluher with this statement in [[7]] that he believed that "pederasty and male bonding provided a basis for a stronger nation and state"? Psychologist Parker Rossman writes that "In Central Europe in the 1920's and early 1930's there was another effort to revive the Greek ideal of pedagogic pederasty, in the movement of "wandering youth. . . men and boys who wandered around the countryside, hiking and singing hand in hand, enjoying nature, life together and their sexuality." He quotes as references Bluher "The German Boy Scout Movement as Erotic Phenomenon" in "Die Rolle der Erotic in der Mannlichen Gesselschaft", Stuttgart, Erns Klett (1962), Willets "Vandervogel in pre-Hitler Germany" in Journal of Criminal Psychopathology, 3.(1943) and Laquer "Young Germany" (1962). Haiduc 14:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
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- The correct title of Hans Blüher's book is Die deutsche Wandervogel-Bewegung als erotisches Phänomen: ein Beitrag zur Erkenntnis der sexuellen Inversion (The German Wandervogel movement as erotic phenomenon: a contribution to the understanding of sexual inversion). I wont' give anything for Rossman's book, if he got this wrong. Blüher's book was the third volume of his work on the history of the Wandervogel movement. It was widely rejected (also by the members of the movement). I read it some years ago, but when I recall correct, Blüher wrote about latent homosexuality and not about pederasty.
- If Rossman states that the Wandervogel movement was active in the 1920s and the 1930s, this is totally wrong - the movement had changed it forms to the so called Bündische Jugend and was much more militaristic.
- And some background: Homosexuality and - in very few causes - pederasty were among the standard accuses of the Nazis against former leaders of the Bündische Jugend to suppress this movement. Most of the accused were proved not guilty - even in the Third Reich -, but a few were sentenced to concentration camp. After the war, their trials were reopened and AFIAK all were proved not guilty. --jergen 20:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I do not wish to press a point against someone so much more familiar with this topic, so I defer to your expertise. Some reservations though: the fact that Blüher's book was rejected means nothing - all "embarrassing" information is rejected in such cases, whether true or not. Rossman's gloss of the title is an obvious attempt to translate the term for a general readership, rather than a "mistake." My own suspicion is that embedded in Blüher's book is the information we need, since it would be nonsensical to assume that boys only loved boys, and ludicrous to assume that these men loved each other erotically. What you call "latent homosexuality" in all likelihood is precisely the chaste pederasty that IS the very ressurection of ideal Greek practices which the sources discuss. But I have no access to the material and do not speak German, so I have no way to verify or refute this theory. Haiduc 21:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I am happy with Jergen changes, although I am not sure, if today's Wandervogel is really so small.
- I also think, that the connection between the Wandervogel and homoeroticism is now presented in a more balanced way, since, although there were such feelings, this was never what the movement was about. LARS 15:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I would be really interested if we could find out more about the modern movement. I can explore the French side but not the German. I agree with you that the movement was not about homoeroticism, no more than it was about music or outdoor cooking. It simply was something that happened, I am sure less frequently than the music and the cooking but probably more frequently than we might think, with our modern outlook. During my research I googled Wandervogel + Austria and made an interesting discovery. Not that I would want to post those images here, but. . . Haiduc 16:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ludwig Von Hofmann
Any connection? Haiduc 01:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Revulsion
To put all this into perspective: Educated young Germans today react to words like Wandervogel or Bündische Jugend with revulsion.--What of the night? 12:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
