Talk:Wallace and Gromit

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Moved the Stop motion technique section from A Close Shave to here as it's relevant to all of W&G. violet/riga (t)

Contents

[edit] Itinerate?

Is Wallace really an "itinerate" inventor? He seems to do most of his inventing at home as far as I can tell.

Well, there's no such word, and for the reasons you cited, "itinerant", the real word, really doesn't really fit anyway. I'll assume the original author meant "inveterate" (as in constant); I've made that change to the text and smoothened the sentence a little bit.
Atlant 17:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Have also tidied up the Wallace Bio to remove the duplicate heath robinson link and jarring structure. Elchoco 23:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Itinerate is a word. I don't know how someone could have confused that with inveterate though.

[edit] A question removed from the text and saved here

(Is the reference to "black" a hidden "racist" pun - the penguin is, after all, pretty much black and a foreigner to boot?)

Atlant 12:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the original questioner is reading far too much into it. - Bonalaw 15:31, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I think so too. But if they want to come back and defend the point, this is the place!
Atlant 16:30, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


PaulRichmond (Response to Atlant and defence of interpretation) Out of context, my interpretation would appear an overreading. But we should be aware that The Wrong Trousers is strewn with symbols, allusions and puns. Some of these, taken together, suggest themes. The Wrong Trousers makes much of emphasising the identity of the penguin (through the fish smybol) and contrasting it with the bone symbol (used to identify Gromit). Wallace presumes the penguin likes kippers (i.e. he makes this judgement based purely on the penguin's appearance - in short, prejudice - for the penguin is a stranger and thus Wallace can know nothing about the penguin's tastes except from visual clues.) Futhermore, the contrast between Gromit and the Penguin is taken to extremes (bone/fish; domestic/foreign; high-brow/low-brow; round character/flat character etc). And, of course, Gromit is white and the penguin is black. Note how this penguin is particularly black in that the normal area of white for a penguin has been reduced to a minimum (to about the same amount of white visible on a man wearing a formal dinner suit). I contend that my suggestion that this reference to "black pudding" may be an intentional "racist" pun is reasonable, although "racial" is probable a better word. However, the makers could always deny it, as it is quite reasonable to expect Wallace to like this delicacy. Please be aware that I do not want to give away too much away as I have just about completed a book on The Wrong Trousers (looking for suitable publisher). It is my belief that The Wrong Trousers is a coherent political satire that could be the new Animal Farm. Please use the discussion page of The Wrong Trousers to pursue the truth about the hidden secrets of this masterly narrative and animation. PaulRichmond 11:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

From the article: "I suppose you like kippers. I'm partial to a bit of black pudding myself - with bacon of course." (purely innocent quote or contrived pun hinting at race? see discussion page for comment)
Isn't it just that Black pudding is the cliched "traditional" Lancashire food. If Wallace was Scottish, then he would probably have preferred Haggis. Jll 12:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

PaulRichmondReply to Jll above.
It is quite obvious that I know that "black pudding" is a culinary dish because I refer to it as a "delicacy". See entry immediately above yours.PaulRichmond 14:49, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
My comment wasn't to explain what black pudding is, but to show why I think it was an obvious choice for Wallace when comparing foods. But whatever the merit of your suggestion, doesn't it conflict with Wikipedia's policy of no original research? Jll 08:34, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
PaulRichmondReply to Jll above.
Firstly, about the "original research". It is mosy certainly not original research in the context of The Wrong Trousers to notice the frequent occurence of puns, in-jokes, references and allusions. As there are so many puns etc, is it not reasonable to question whether "black pudding" might also be a pun? There exists, to my knowledge, no official register of Wallace and Gromit puns, against which this observation might be checked (perhaps the creators could set one up, but even then, what credibility would it have?).
Secondly, if black pudding is indeed an intentional pun, then it is quite logical that The Wrong Trousers' creators would have a perfectly reasonable connection to both meanings - that is, both the literal (the dish), and the symbol (race). After all, that is the very nature of a pun. But as race is such a sensitive issue, is it not also reasonable for the makers to have an escape route (ie. by having a sound reason for including black pudding in its literal sense), in the event that it became controversial, and thus giving the makers the opportunity to deny, albeit with impunity, that the pun was ever intentional?
Thirdly, the pun could be unintended, but I have no evidence that it is not. Can you prove it?
A final point. This discussion that we are having is perhaps a spin-off from an "intention" of The Wrong Trousers. The very pastiche nature of The Wrong Trousers makes it almost an archetypal work of post-modernism. And Post-modernism certainly entertains the notion of both many truths and that there is no absolute truth. It could be that The Wrong Trousres is also a satire on post-modernism itself. But in making this last point, I concede that I may be delving into original research, albeit on the discussion page, and heaven forbid, not on the sacred article page.PaulRichmond 10:30, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The Original Research isn't in noting the presence of allusions, puns and in-jokes. Those that we note are pretty clear as references. The alleged racial reference isn't clear at all. The only racial component is the word black, which could have no racial commponent, and in most cases doesn't have one. The point is, the no original research idea it that we don't directly theorise, beyond the more direct observations, but we report what interpretations other people hold. Perhaps if your book and its interpretations become gennerally accepted (or at least well known), then we should include them, but not when it's one person proposing them.
As for the question of evidence, you have cited no evidence that this is a racial reference, apart from the word black, which has many other possible connotations. If this could be a reference, then it seems by the same logic any reference to anything black could be refernce, which doesn't seem a reasonable way to approach things. It also has no content to it, in the sense that it says nothing about race, only (according to you) mentioning race. Silverfish 11:28, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
How would I prove an assertion that "All swans are white"? Not, I think, by hunting around for white swans and citing the sitings (excuse the pun). More sitings of white swans until no black swans had been seen would not provide absolute proof for the assertion but would merely corroborate the evidence that had been hitherto observed. The first siting of a black swan would disprove the assertion.
Whether the word black has a racial connotation depends on the context in which it is percieved to be embeded. In the context that the word here appears as part of "black pudding" and in connection with an animation that is generally most popular among children, it would appear pretty innocent. But in the context of being embedded in an animation that is universally recognised as containing puns and in jokes etc, it becomes legitimate to consider almost anything a pun, and PARTICULARLY so if the word BLACK is mentioned!
I should also point out that there have been many works aimed at children which have been subsequently revealed to have had intentional double meanings, or works aimed at children which have had no intentional hidden meaning but which have become sanitised by political correctness in the fear that these works might offend. PaulRichmond 13:13, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how the "All swans are white" argument relates to another I've said. Could you please explain? As for the rest, yes, it does have puns in it, but I'm not convinced there is a reason to suppose the black pudding line is, or might be, a reference to race, or any of the many possible things that black can symbolise. That's the issue, whether "black pudding" is a reference to race. Silverfish 17:26, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
The "All swans are white" assertion is often cited in connection with discussion of logic, and in particular with hypothetico-deductive method. By hunting around for references to whether "black pudding" is percieved as a pun by others would only corroborate that "black pudding" is a pun. Absolute proof is elusive in this connection. You accept the presence of puns in The Wrong Trousers. What if other puns in The Wrong Trousers also suggested race or cultural differences? Would you then accept that it would be more reasonable to accept that black pudding might also be a racial pun? Are you actually familiar with The Wrong Trousers? Have you noted the use of symbols and allusions in this work? I am asking these questions because the level of explanation that you may require depends very much on how familiar you are with The Wrong Trousers, the plot and all the possible references made (verbal, visual, musical and literary). I have seen the work over 100 times, but the first ten times or so, I did not suspect that it might contain a deeper meaning. Re-reading Animal Farm suddenly opened my eyes to the idea that The Wrong Trousers was an allegory - and then the alternative narrative started to become clear. PaulRichmond 10:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the "All swans are white" idea, but still don't think it's revlevant. While we can't achive absolute proof, that's not what anyone here is asking for, but some evidence. Even if you provide evidence that other puns suggested race or cultural difference, that could still leave the black pudding line as unintentional reference, although it's hard to know without seeing such evidence. I'm particularly looking for signs of a reference in, related to, or surrounding that particular quote. I am fairly familiar with all the W&G series, and I think I've got the videos somewhere. Silverfish 12:00, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
Reply to Silverfish directly above from PaulRichmond. I still maintain that the extensive use of puns etc. in The Wrong Trousers makes it perfectly legitimate to consider black pudding as a possible intentional pun. As I have been declined an interview with Nick Park in connection with my writing a book about The Wrong Trousers, I consider that I have made a reasonable effort to verify this and other details concerning this work. The burden of proof must now be to find the "black swan": a denial by Nick Park that black pudding was an intentional pun. But even then, such a denial might not be the truth. And it could also be the case that Nick Park was not in control of the entire narrative. PaulRichmond 14:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Your "considerable efforts" have apparently turned up no evidence that black pudding in particular is a racial reference, apart from the word black. Therefore I go with what I think is the most likely interpretation, that black pudding simply means black pudding. Even works filled with puns and references has things that aren't references to anything, so I would like (and have asked before), for evidence that this specific quote is a racial reference. I think a Nick Park quote would only support your position, as it would give evidence that someone other than you thinks that it might have something to do with race. I say something to do with race, as you haven't given any idea what racial meaning black pudding would have, and if black is supposed to symbolise foreignness, why would Wallace be mentioned as liking it, unless the obvious interpretation, of Wallace liking a local delicacy, is correct? Silverfish 15:45, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Reply to Silverfish directly above from PaulRichmond. You have not indicated whether you have viewed The Wrong Trousers since your entry of Sept 12. If you had viewed The Wrong Trousers since that time (and you had also read much of the other material I have posted on Wikepedia concerning The Wrong Trousers and allusion etc), I feel certain that you would have found it easier to attribute a rationale for Wallace liking not only black pudding as the delicacy but also black pudding that links via pun to "foreignness". The progression of the whole narrative of The Wrong Trousers turns on how Wallace strikes a balance between "the domestic" and "the foreign". Gromit's circumstances are immediately affected by how Wallace strikes this balance. Furthermore, when Gromit witnesses Wallace's relationship with the penguin - and how Wallace is striking this balance - he is also reading The Republic by Pluto (ie a pun on Plato and clearly a reference to democracy - or, rather, the lack of it). In the final scene, Wallace says, "All's well that ends well" - when it clearly isn't because the Techno-trousers come back to life. At the same time, Wallace's hankering for the foreign (symbolised by gorgonzola) is clearly undermining both his resolve to have no more to do with the foreign (No more Lodgers, more trouble than they're worth) and the rebirth of his desire for the domestic (symbolised by cheddar).

It is quite obvious that "Black" has a connection to "foreigners" in a post-war British context. In Britain before 1950, there were few "Blacks" (people with a very dark skin, who, predominately, at that time, had been born abroad Britain at that time), but the number of "Blacks" have increased considerable since then. In the fifties, it was quite common and often acceptable to use a variety of terms, including "Blacks" and "Darkies" to describe some foreigners. These terms are less acceptable today. In some cases, racial references from contemporary works of the fifties have been removed for the benefit of modern sensitivities. Interestingly, the film I'm All Right Jack" (satire from 1959 on British industrial relations and much more)is one of those films where modern showings often omit references to foreign workers in language not favoured today. I say interestingly because there is a case for arguing that The Wrong Trousers more or less directly alludes to I'm Allright Jack in at least two places as far as I can see.

I should mention that Peter Sallis's rendition of "I'm partial to a bit of black pudding myself" contains no special intonation to indicate that black pudding might be a pun. But that is the nature of puns: they are often "in-jokes". And they would quite clearly not be "in- jokes" if everybody were "in". Art often plays coys. It doesn't reveal all its secrets and delights at the first meeting. I accept, though, that there is controversy over the esteem in which puns are held.

I do hope that I have at last succeeded in persuading Silverfish (and perhaps others) of the need for understanding the extent of symbolism and allusion in The Wrong Trousers. I still maintain that it is perfectly reasonable to consider "black pudding" a possible pun. This pun is not crucial to the understanding of the allegory and political satire of The Wrong Trousers, but it is interesting how much debate it has generated so far. I would have hoped that more readers of these pages would have pursued other aspects of The Wrong Trousers' possible meanings and messages and allegorical associations - no one has challenged me on any of my stated allusions, for example. I have also indicated that the penguin and the racial connections might only be a subplot. Why are so many comments being generated by the word "black"? Is it becomming impossible to mention "race" or use the word "black" in the neutral "academic" context of discussing possible meanings of works of art? PaulRichmond 11:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm honestly getting rather bored with this discussion. I'll conceed that "black pudding" is a possible reference, but without any signs that this is the case, i don't think it's likely, or worth mentioning in the article. I've focused on the black pudding issue, as it's something you've included in the article, and I didn't want to get sidetracked. I don't see much more point in discussing this, so I'll leave it there, at least concerning this page, unless you add anything else to the entry that I want to discuss. Otherwise, let's just agree to disagree. Silverfish 14:24, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aid to Interpreting The Wrong Trousers

Anyone embarking on uncovering hidden meanings in The Wrong Trousers should view the animation armed with this information. The Wrong Trousers uses allusion to many "classic" works, where Shakespeare's problem play "All's Well That Ends Well" is alluded to by verbatim citation of its title by Wallace, where Hans Cristian Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes is alluded to visually by the bald Wallace drying his "hair" with a hair dryer, and where democracy is alluded to via Gromit's reading The Republic by Pluto (sic) (i.e. Plato). Although many commentators have noted various individual allusions in The Wrong Trousers, most take them only as innocent puns or in-jokes, not realising that, taken together, these allusions form other meanings (see intertextuality), and that The Wrong Trousers might be a well-disguised allegory or political satire. PaulRichmond 15:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Whatever possesses you to assume you have the right to dictate what anyone else "should" do? 147.114.226.174


Yeah, PaulRichmond, you're one trying to write a book about it.

[edit] Techno Quest

Come on, no mention of the encyclopedia-esque collection of articles featuring Wallace & Gromit as mascots known as Techno Quest?! Looks like I'll have to write it.. --Rilstix 12:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Techno Quest! Ah, the memories... --Sum0 09:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know where I can get the complete encyclopedia series? I've got half of the first volume and I'm studying to be ateacher and I would just love to have the whole series to uiswe with my pupils. Vantixs 09:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TV Series

Sorry if this is incorrect, but wasn't there a TV series of Wallace and Gromit? I never saw it, and know nothing more than the ads on TV for it, but I think if there was it should definitely be mentioned. Wapatista 08:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No, there was no TV series. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you're thinking of the Creature Comforts Advertising series that Nick Park did for Heat Electric. Elchoco 23:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Right, that could be. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

There's recognised references by Park to the gadgetry from TV shows like Thunderbirds. I read an article about it somewhere. I'll try and find a reference and add it. Elchoco 23:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dogwarts is a takeoff from Harry Potter?

I highly doubt that seeing as Wallace and Gromit has been around since before Harry's dad knew Harry's mom. -- Anon1

Wasn't "Dogwarts" in the recent movie, "The Curse of the Were-Rabbit"? Harry Potter was definetely out then. -- Anon2

I think that what you meant to say is that Dogwarts is a punning reference to Hogwarts in Harry Potter. No one would argue with that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grommit Photo

Shouldnt the photo of grommit actually show grommit?216.222.255.113 21:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

We need to upload a REAL Grommit photo. The avaible photo from The Wrong Trousers should be moved to The Wrong Trousers article.

[edit] Teapot special effects

Does anyone know how the animators managed to pull-off the tea pouring from the spout of the teapot in The Wrong Trousers? It's one of my favourite W & G special effects. The Nangster, Sydney.

I'm not sure of the exact scene you'r ethinking of, but I'm fairly certain I read that glycerin is the secret to animating any real-life liquids that appear in the various films. But if glycerin's too fast for you, there's always the pitch drop experiment.
Atlant 12:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought they used brown paper crumpled up. I believe I read it somewhere, and it does look like that!

Lumic 11:41, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

[edit] 30 frames a day?

According to the article

30 frames a day = s little over 1 second a day. 60 seconds in one minute equals = 48 days. An entire 30 minutes short = 1440 days (almost 4 years?)

I find this very hard to believe

(The movie is around 80 minute long.. 3840 days to animate? Yeah right.)

This needs to be sourced. --Joeblack982 09:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The above article was averaging the time it takes to animate. Some days, more things would be recorded than on other days. Some days, two or four animators, or more would work to make it quicker and many other things would be used to speed up the animating time. One thing which takes a huge amount of time is lip-sinc.

The movie took about 5 years from start of production to finished masterpiece. --Lumic 11:47, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

The Behind the scenes extra in the movie also makes clear that there are multiple scenes and sets being built and shot at the same time.

[edit] Wodehouse connexion

Should it not be mentioned somewhere the similarities of Wallace & Gromit to P. G. Wodehouse's Jeeves & Wooster stories?

[edit] Origin of Gromit's name

I heard from a usually trustworthy friend that Alfred Russel Wallace, who came up with evolutionary theory at the same time as Charles Darwin, had a dog called Gromit and that this was origin of W +G Gromit's name. A quick googling failed to find anything on ARW dog ownership, which seems like a major omission from the internet.

Actually the naming came from Nick Park's brother! He was an engineering person/plumber and Nick often heard him talking about 'grommits' and that is where the name came from! The name Wallace was the one which cam from a dog! Apparently Nick was on a bus and heard a lady talking to her fat dog 'Wallace'. He like the name and used it! --87.112.4.118 18:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)--Lumic

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