Talk:W. G. Grace

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Contents 1 ACS - Wisden 2 36 miles 3 Second testimonial details 4 Flowery Description 5 Is this a notable feat? 6 Last f-c match 7 How Good a Bowler? 8 Title of this article

[edit] ACS - Wisden

>> Grace scored over 100 runs on 124 occasions, the hundredth score being 288, made at Bristol for Gloucestershire v. Somersetshire in 1895.

A nasty example of the ACS - Wisden dispute. The 124 hundreds comes from ACS. But the 288 - which was celebrated as WG's 100th 100 at the time - is only his 98th according to ACS. But we are stuck with this. Changing neither the 124 nor the 288 makes sense. Tintin 12:04, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 36 miles

He once hit a ball 36 miles after a shot landed on a passing steam train.

Any reference for this ? Have heard such a story about someone else but not Grace Tintin 12:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Says in the Double section he took 191 wickets in 1895, but then states below 'highest of 192 wickets in 1895.' Sort it out

[edit] Second testimonial details

From W. G. Grace#Profession:

...the second, collected by the M.C.C., the county of Gloucestershire, the Daily Telegraph, and the Sportsman, amounted to about £10,000, and was presented to him in 1896.

Sportsman, which redirects to Sport, isn't a very good link here. I would guess that this is the Sportsman, a daily sports newspaper which ran from 1865-1924. [1] [2]. Is that the most likely meaning in the C19/EB1911 context? Or can anyone positively confirm this? If so, the link could be disambiguated (though we don't have a relevant article yet). Also, would it have been Gloucestershire in general or Gloucestershire County Cricket Club in particular that was involved? --rbrwr^± 11:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flowery Description

So, W.G. "was powerfully proportioned, loose yet strong of limb." A bit Mills & Boon.

From the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica, actually. --rbrwr^± 20:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

It is comforting to know that their language is no better than ours :-) Tintin 21:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Date of picture the date of one of the picure was said unknown yet in the picure there was a date of 1883

[edit] Is this a notable feat?

"Playing against Kent at Gravesend in 1895, he was batting, bowling, or fielding during the whole time the game was in progress, his scores being 257 and 73 not out."

That he bowled and fielded during Kent's innings seems pretty obvious. So basically he almost carried the bat twice in this match. A feat, surely, but worth mentioning?

Its rarer than you might imagine. It has happened 11 times in first class cricket. --LiamE 21:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Gloucs scored 106 for 1 in the second innings. So hardly 'almost carried the bat'. Was his 100th first class hundred this one, or was it the innings of 288 earlier in the season (don't trust cricinfo & cricketarchive, they list it as his 99th). Tintin (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It was 288. Tintin (talk) 06:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last f-c match

The article rather gives the impression that Grace's f-c career ended in 1900, referring to that date at least once. It also refers to a career of "nearly forty years" in the intro. His last f-c match wasn't until 1908, and even as late as 1903 he played as many as 16 matches: [3] JH 20:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed (favourite cricket fact of the week coming up for the 3rd time), WG was the captain of the Gentleman of England when they played against Surrey in 1905, in the match in which Jack Hobbs made his first-class debut. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've made a few tweaks, largely to make it clear that his f-c career extended to 1908. I may do some more later, as it seems to me that the article contains a lot of duplication and also that items aren't always in the most logical place. JH 18:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How Good a Bowler?

This assessment is indisputable for Grace is the only player in cricket's history who can claim to have been world-class at both batting and bowling as specialist activities; rather than being world-class because of all-round ability per se. For example, Gary Sobers was a world-class all-rounder and also a world-class specialist batsman; but he was not a world-class bowler, albeit a very good one.

He was obviously a very good bowler, but I think that describing him as "world-class" may be pitching it a bit high. An average of a shade under 18 is undeniably good, but allowance must be made for the generally poor quality of the pitches. Of his approximate contemporaries, Johnny Briggs averaged just under 16, Attewell just over 15, Tom Emmett about 13.5 and Alfred Shaw a phenomenal 12. So I would say that, like Sobers, Grace fell into the "very good" category. JH 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

He was world-class at his peak. His average fell away because he played for 44 years and this was the same with his batting, as the article already states. If he had retired in say 1880 his averages would have been phenomenal and he would still have a quite a long career. It is interesting that he was always a roundarm bowler though overarm began when he did. --AlbertMW 06:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This assessment is indisputable for Grace is the only player in cricket's history who can claim to have been world-class at both batting and bowling as specialist activities

He ceratinly was world class at both at his peak but to say he was the only player to be world class at both is frankly rubbish. Firstly his record stems from his first class cricket whereas other players compared to him were tested in the far more rigorous arena of Test cricket. Graeme Hick and others would be considered world class by their first class figures but came up a bit short in Tests. One would assume that by world class one would have to be in the top 5 as a bowler or a batsman so as to be picked in a best of the world side. Both Ian Botham and Garry Sobers would have been. At his peak Botham was rated as the best bowler in the world and the 3rd best batsman, Sobers the best batsman and 5th best bowler, ergo they both could have been picked for a world team on either dicipline. Looking at first class cricket you have Frank Woolley who played in a far more competitive era than Grace. Their records are directly comparable. Grace took more wickets at a slightly better average than Woolley. Woolley scored more runs and centuries again at a slightly better average than Grace. Indisputably the only player world class at both? Hardly. --LiamE 09:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that any definition of world-class is bound to be POV so the paragraph should be removed. As I wrote it, I will do the necessary.

I would point out to you that cricket in WG's time was extremely competitive. Spofforth was not called the Demon for nothing and WG himself was probably the most competitive player of all time: how many players do you know of who kidnapped another team's player to strengthen your own?  :-) --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 19:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title of this article

The title is not strictly correct in Wikipedia terms as it should reflect the name in general usage. In this case, the name is "WG Grace" as "WG" was his familiar name (soubriquet, if you prefer) and the two letters are thus joined (or hyphenated). The article itself makes clear that he was called "WG" by all except his immediate family. The title at present is a formalised version as would appear in a scorecard, so it is the equivalent of "J. B. Hobbs" or "D. G. Bradman" whose articles are rightly titled "Jack Hobbs" and "Don Bradman".

I have read a discussion in "WIkiProjectCricket" which indicates a clear consensus for "WG Grace" as a style. This is just an "obiter dictum" really because the important point is the subject's accepted name. Style is a separate issue that applies to whole articles, not just the titles.

Furthermore, an authoritative biography I have just read, by Eric Midwinter, is entitled "WG Grace: His Life and Times".

I am therefore moving the article to WG Grace. --AlbertMW 06:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I object to this move. In my view, P. G. Wodehouse, J. K. Rowling, P. D. James, Jerome K. Jerome and George W. Bush are all named correctly. Can you please provide a link to the discussion you cite at WikiProject cricket? --RobertG ♬ talk 09:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think what was actually decided was that "W. G." was the preferred style, but that "WG" was also acceptable... but that there was no reason whatever to move an established article. We don't have perfect consistency on Wikipedia in a lot of areas (eg national varities of English) and I really don't think it's that important to have it here either. On a personal note, I'm someone who prefers the look of "WG", but I still object strongly to the move that's been undertaken, because there's just no point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Loganberry (talk • contribs) .

The previous discussion is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket/archive22#Name of W. G. Grace's article, and in fact reached the opposite conclusion from what Albert claims. We confirmed a previous decision that either "WG Grace" or "W. G. Grace" is acceptable, but that it is unacceptable to change from one to the other. I've reverted the move. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This issue should have been discussed by all interested parties on this page before being reverted. That is evidently what RobertG was expecting when he requested more information. The revert is high-handed and is extremely rude to AlbertMW and anyone else expecting a discussion. No revert should have taken place until a full discussion had been completed and everyone interested had a chance to take part.

Furthermore, and this is becoming a common complaint, the so-called "cricket project" has no authority or control over cricket articles and categories. Your alleged "consensus" is inapplicable. Anyone can edit and no one is bound by any "decision" of the cricket project talk page: any such "decision" is a guideline at most for use amongst yourselves. The only consensus that is applicable to this article is one among the people who are genuinely interested in the article, providing it does not contravene any stated Wikipedia policy.

As it happens, I don't agree with AlbertMW because I think the convention with initials should be W G Grace as used by the BBC, by Peter Wynne-Thomas in the book that is quoted in the article and by countless other literary, business, internet, you-name-it interests. However, I think Albert has made a good point about "WG" being a name rather than a set of initials helping to form a pseudonym like J K Rowling, who is not actually called "JK" whereas Grace was called "WG" (except by his family who called him "Gilly"). It is true that if the initials are in fact a name, they should be joined together into a single "word" or should be hyphenated. I am therefore prepared to set aside my personal preference here and support WG Grace as the title of this article. --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 19:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A contentious edit or move of this nature is usually reverted to the status quo ante to allow for further discussion. We could get bogged down in discussing whether it is ruder to make a contentious edit where the issue has been canvassed before, more than once, with no clear consensus either way, or to revert it, but shall we concentrate on the issue instead? (Yes, I know, he was probably not aware of the previous discussions, be bold, bold, revert, discuss, etc).

This kind of point has effects outside this article, so should be discussed in a more central place. Rather than having the full discussion here, shall we take this back to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket again, or one of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style subpages (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) perhaps)? -- ALoan (Talk) 20:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The issue for WikiProject Cricket is the one about its members acting out of order. If Mr Turner can quote WP:NAMEPEOPLE below, why didn't he do it earlier? Why did he act as if the project has some kind of authority over or ownership of this article? Anyway, there is no need to discuss the title of this article any further. --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 18:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There's no point in having a centralised discussion because Wikipedia-wide policy is perfectly clear, and stated at WP:NAMEPEOPLE: only "W. G. Grace" is permissible. The cricket project guideline does contravene stated Wikipedia policy by allowing "WG Grace" as an alternative. Stephen Turner (Talk) 20:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't you quote Wikipedia policy in the first place instead of trying to impose your project's non-existent authority on the matter? Wikipedia policy counts, WikiProject Cricket does not. --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 18:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

After reading the Wikipedia policy I accept the title must be W. G. Grace. Still think it is technically incorrect in this case because his NAME was WG Grace and his INITIALS were W. G. Grace - exactly the same as Jack Hobbs and J. B. Hobbs. Anyway, no point in arguing about it - it's unimportant.

I think the matter could have been handled better by the WikiProject people. I agree with Jack there is a wider issue. They have a perception of themselves that they OWN the cricket articles and have a mandate over them to wave in the faces of editors. It's true an individual editor can refer me to a documented Wikipedia policy and I'm bound by that. I'm not bound by any "consensus" that has been arrived at by a WikiProject.

The WikiProject has no authority, no control, no ownership rights. It can only suggest guidelines. If its members try to impose their will by quoting WikiProject "decisions" they are completely out of order. They should have the courage to act as individuals if they wish to edit or revert something. I suggest someone raises that on the WikiProject talk page. --AlbertMW 18:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite right. But I doubt if anyone will raise it unless you do it yourself. --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 18:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, there's no sense in which any editor or group of editors owns any article, or can impose anything. However, there is value in having all the cricket articles follow a common style, and for that style to be decided by the consensus of the people interested in the cricket articles. That's all that's happening, not some sinister cabal. Stephen Turner (Talk) 18:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)