Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion/archive 1a

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Archive of before 20 May 2003

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

See also: Wikipedia utilities/Old Page titles to be deleted talk and Wikipedia:Utilities

Please see my comment in Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of pages. — Toby 03:21 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I notice that Magnus puts new votes at the top of the page. Perhaps he doesn't realise that we expect them at the bottom, since the software that he wrote originally placed automatic links there. Or perhaps he is sending us subtle hints that the top would be better. Well, I can see some merit in that. ¿What do people think?; ¿should we switch the order here? (and presumably on the other, less used, vote pages). — Toby 01:26 Aug 16, 2002 (PDT)

I generelly prefer logs like this to accumulate at the top. I also think things like lists of annual awards should be be chronological starting with the present and working backward (Wikipedia is inconsistent about that). If I ever get around to adding a feature to nominate articles for deletion, I'll probably add them to a list at the top, just like the deletion log and upload log (and I'll probably call it "deletion request log", because it has nothing at all to do with voting on anything). --LDC

I prefer to put new stuff at the bottom, since I read from the top down. This depends, however, on the page being short enough to load quickly. I'm much happier seeing a page like Wikipedia:Deletion log going backwards, since it can get long and is automatically generated by a fixed template. This page, however, with its many interspersed comments, needs a more straightforward chronology. Well, that's my $0.02; I can work with either way. — Toby 05:52 Sep 17, 2002 (UTC)



Everyone reads from the top down! That's precisely why some people want new additions at the top - so that they can see them as soon as they load up the page, without having to scroll right down to the bottom of a long list. I have no strong views on this matter myself, although I do strongly support the idea that chronological lists of awards etc. should go forward in time down the page, as is done in almost all such lists everywhere else! -- Oliver Pereira 08:12 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)

The article Arts and Crafts Movement is a substantial topic which could be expanded to make a nice article. What is there is only a tiny part of what could be included. User:Fredbauder

What was there was, in fact, completely irrelevant to the actual subject. I've used Ortolan's material on why not to delete it as the basis of a stub. Much more is, indeed, needed. Vicki Rosenzweig

--- Now that we have the stub-marking capacity, we don't need to delete stubs that may in the future become good articles, no? --The Cunctator

That's absurd. If there is no information on the page then it is far more informative to have an edit link. Besides this is a non-standard option. --mav
It's not far more informative to have an edit link. In fact, the edit link is the equivalent of a stub threshhold set to 1 character, without the added information that someone has edited the entry before.
It's not absurd. I can respect your disagreement, however, especially if you understand my argument. --The Cunctator

The article says: "(or use the Vote feature)": what is it? olivier 11:24 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

Time ago, there was an option in the menu bar, "vote this page". This led to a form by which you could directly add the page you were reading to one of the voting pages, with a comment. You could choose to vote for NPOV, for rewrite, for brilliant prose and for deletion.
This feature has been removed, I think for technical reasons, but this page (votes for deletion) was perhaps the most useful one, so it survived in manual use. BTW, other pages are still available at
Wikipedia:Votes for NPOVing
Wikipedia:Votes for rewrite
Wikipedia:Votes for wikification
Wikipedia:Votes for article-of-the-day
--Gianfranco

"Also, check the What links here link. Many entries that seem not to belong in an encyclopedia are linked from Sep 11, 2001 related pages."

This is stated, but not explained. What relevance does "Sep 11" have to the suitability of articles to an encyclopaedia? If there is a page explaining this somewhere, could someone link to it? Thanks. -- Oliver Pereira 08:12 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)

It has already been decided that many of the 9/11 pages should be moved out of the encyclopedia to the newly created http://sep11.wikipedia.org We just haven't got around to doing it yet. --mav
Thanks for the explanation! Of course, since Wikipedia is neutral and all that, I look forward to a similar Wikipedia subproject for the victims of the subsequent bombing of Afghanistan... -- Oliver Pereira 10:01 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)
If anyone's actually serious about doing that rather than just using people's deaths as the butt of sarcasm, I'll be more than happy to set up a blank wiki for it. --Brion 10:17 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)
I was actually making a serious point about neutrality (albeit with just a hint of sarcasm), and I genuinely would like to see a site dedicated to the victims of the bombing in Afghanistan, or indeed anywhere else. I don't have much personal knowledge in the area myself, but I would find it interesting if people who knew more about Afghanistan were to build such a project! -- Oliver Pereira 10:30 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)


If anyone remembers, I suggested the Sep11 wiki be morphed into a general "victims of war and terrorism" memorial. -- Tarquin
Aha! I vote for that idea, then. I don't remember that, as I'm new round here. (I might add that line to everything I write from now on, so that I can be excused from everything I do... ;) -- Oliver Pereira 10:49 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)
I agree and have suggested the same thing myself. How about this; memorial.wikipedia.org. I wonder why Brion created such a specific url when there were several suggestions that such a site should not be exclusive to 9/11. No biggie right now and sep11.wikipedia.org can and should always point to the 9/11 In Memoriam page. A general Main Page can be made later after the primary url is changed to something more inclusive (piped namespaces can be used for disambiguation if need be). --mav

I can't believe that after all that discussion, The Cunctator just deleted the paragraph under discussion! I don't think someone should delete a clarificatory paragraph if other people feel it is necessary; certainly not without discussing it first! There are a lot of "Sep 11"-related articles (e.g. biographies of victims) that look a little out of place in an encyclopaedia, and as mav said, the articles haven't been moved yet. So I think it is worthwhile to keep a note to this effect on the "Votes for deletion" page so that people don't complain about them. -- Oliver Pereira 20:33 Nov 12, 2002 (UTC)

Give an example of such an article.

Noone has put a Sep.11-related page on Votes for Deletion in quite some time.

Mav's use of the passive voice ("It has been decided...") is inappropriate. It's simply not true. --The Cunctator

I don't get your problem. I gather that you want the "Sep 11" pages to remain, and yet you repeatedly delete a paragraph which tells people not to nominate the pages for deletion. What do you gain by doing this?
As for giving examples of pages, I gave a whole set in my message above. To repeat: "There are a lot of 'Sep 11'-related articles (e.g. biographies of victims) that look a little out of place in an encyclopaedia."
Biographical entries in an encyclopaedia (which seems to be the standard view of what the Wikipedia is striving to be) traditionally describe people who are famous or worthy of note in some field of endeavour. While I am in no way trying to denigrate the worth of the victims' lives, I can't see how most of them fit the traditional criteria for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. I for one thought their inclusion was odd, until I heard about this memorial site (which of course I fully approve of, especially if it were to be upgraded into Tarquin's more neutral "victims of war and terrorism" memorial).
I hasten to add that saying that their inclusion seemed ";odd", and not "traditional", doesn't mean that I am against their inclusion. After all, I only discovered the Wikipedia nine days ago, and I found the whole thing odd and untraditional! Now that I've become more used to the Wikipedia, I can see that it has the potential to be a lot bigger than a traditional encyclopaedia, and so can contain a lot that traditional encyclopaedias leave out. But I still think it's likely that other people will have similar thoughts to my initial ones about the "oddness" of the victims' biographies, and they may well nominate them for deletion. (You yourself once wrote that the material "stretches the bounds of the Wikipedia mission".)
It is an undisputed fact that a new memorial site has been set up. It is here. Whether the victims' pages are to be moved to that site or merely linked to from that site may be disputed. But it's not really relevant. Either way, it has been decided that the pages are not to be deleted, yes? So why not have a paragraph on the "Votes for deletion" page saying this? If the paragraph is slightly misleading, reword it. There is no reason to axe it altogether, as far as I can see.
As for other people not putting "Sep 11"-related articles on "Votes for deletion" for some time, perhaps this is partly because they believed that what mav said had been agreed had, in fact, been agreed.
I know I've waffled on for quite some time here, but I'm trying to present logical arguments, rather than just getting into an edit war. If you have any logical arguments as to why a short and simple clarificatory paragraph is somehow a Bad Thing to have, please do present them. -- Oliver Pereira
I agree. No more reason to have an article for somebody just because they die in a noteworthy attack, than an article for each of the other 50,000-100,000 (I guess) people who die every day.
You have a point, but that's not actually what I was saying, so I'm not sure why you started with "I agree"...! -- Oliver Pereira 18:27 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

Okay, now I understand your concern better. You were confused by their inclusion, and found the explanation of their inclusion on this page helpful. My concern (which may be overweighted) is that I don't want the victim pages to be considered a special exception.

Some of these issues of the nature of Wikipedia have been discussed at m:Wiki is not paper and other places. It probably should be incorporated into Wikipedia:What is an article or the FAQ. Discussing it on Votes for deletion isn't quite the right place.

I would like it if you could give a specific example for us to deal with, too. --The Cunctator

Thanks for the reply. Yes, you pretty much understand what my concern was. I do see that treating certain pages as special cases would be controversial, so perhaps it would be best not to do so. I think people might find it helpful if there was a list of common deletion disputes, with a link to a page on what has been concluded from them. This would save going through the disputes again and again.
As for giving a specific example of something to be dealt with, I don't have one, as I was just speaking generally.
My other concern was that I don't like the idea of someone deleting a paragraph that someone else has only just edited, unless it is complete garbage. It could easily offend the person who has just edited the paragraph, and could very easily lead to edit wars. I think that rewording a paragraph to remove any factual inaccuracies would be more diplomatic than just jumping in and saying, "This is wrong. I'm deleting it." -- Oliver Pereira 17:30 Nov 16, 2002 (UTC)

The first sentence of Votes for deletion says,


Add links to stupid, incorrect, or otherwise unwanted page titles to the list below...

I think that "stupid" and "incorrect" should be removed, leaving it simply "Add links to unwanted page titles." The current wording is a little misleading, since deleting pages that are "incorrect" is not the general method of correcting errors. Any objections? -- Stephen Gilbert 03:31 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

No objection from me. Be bold! --mav
Of course, "unwanted" is just as bad a guide. --The Cunctator
Not so, when combined with the request to consult the policy page. It may not be an ideal guide, but it's better than "stupid" and "incorrect". -- Stephen Gilbert 00:36 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

Sorry for being particularly dense, but I can't mentally parse this block of text:

If the content of a page-to-be-deleted exists on some different page, please indicate that, somehow, on the page-to-be-deleted (either by redirecting it to the correctly titled page, or, better for our purposes, putting in a link to it). To facilitate checking that a "page title to be deleted" really ought to be deleted, please don't redirect such pages to page titles to be deleted.

Can anyone tell me what it's talking about? -- Stephen Gilbert 00:46 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

Links to international versions of the page are all pointing to versions of the Fifth World topic. Please, some admin restore correct links --G

Is there one of our subtler vandals at work? The outside link What is the 5th World recently appeared at Micronation. That site has a certain attitude about Wikipedia. My first impression was that there was a minor problem with terminology on one article. Gianfranco's bears further investigation. Eclecticology 07:21 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)
The Wikipedia deliberately chose to cultivate only the Navajo legends, and the past, and leave our neotribal realities, and the present, behind. Right. It's time Tallini either explains what he's doing here, or gets banned. -- Zoe
I don't see how disagreement is grounds to ban somebody. Vera Cruz
I'm beginning to wonder of Vera Cruz and Tallini are the same person. -- Zoe
I'm beginning to lose a lot of respect for Zoe. Vera Cruz
The problem made worse by an apparent bug. When somebody entered the inter language links on the to be deleted list, instead of showing them where one would expect the software treated them as real interlanguage links and put them at the top of the article. These votes for deletion likely should have been entered on the separate Wikipedias for each of the languages involved. I've nowikied them, but somebody with sysop status on each of thes will have to do the deleting. Eclecticology 08:31 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)
On the it.wiki I translated the current version of Fifth World (see) - I'd rather need someone to delete nothing less than the 14 Commandments, a good attempt to enlarge our visions about patience...
Sorry, I hadn't found intl. links in the article so I thought they were sysop reserved - you know, you can't check history for this page ;-) --G

How long after deletion of a page should the "vote" here be removed? Immediately? 1 day? 1 week? -- SGBailey 09:41 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)

No fixed rule has been agreed upon yet. For a simple newbie's experiment I usually remove the entry immediately after deleting. If there was some debate prior to the deletion I usually remove the entry after about a week. -- JeLuF 19:33 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)

I am interested to see that Vera Cruz is now in charge of this page, and has the power to completely delete a section of debate - the Fifth World stuff - claim it's a non-issue, and mark the deletion minor. I have restored the missing text, and would ask that people consider following proper procedures more carefully. This looks like an attempt at sleight of hand and should not go unremarked. 194.117.133.118 09:10 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

Vera Cruz annoyingly marks every edit as minor and Fifth World is now a decent stub. I'm willing to assume that the removal of Jp:Fifth World was a mistake. --mav 09:21 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)
Fair enough, but what a help it would have been if the edit had not been marked as minor, and the Summary field had been used to explain the reason for the deletion. "Non-issue" tells us nothing, but "now a decent stub" would have been informative. 194.117.133.118 09:50 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)
I agree. --mav
Vera Cruz is probably Lir, the editing style is the same, they have edited many of the same pages, Vera Cruz appeared a few days after Lir was banned, even the homepage with all the minor edits being carefully listed looks the same. --Eloquence
I'm getting tired of these Lir "sightings". Can we give people the benefit of the doubt? You are a developer so you can find out for sure. Just compare the IPs that Vera Cruz uses with the IPs Lir used. --mav
No, I can't check the IP, I do not have access to any server logs, nor sysop rights, only CVS access. Check the facts and you will see I'm right, mav. --Eloquence
If you really think so then ask Brion about it. He did a check on another user in record time. IMO VC is is far too reasonable polite, and until very recently newbish to be Lir. --mav
I don't really care either way. Just don't say I didn't tell you so when this comes up again. --Eloquence

So Tallini is Lir? Vera Cruz

No, you are. -- Zoe

Cunctator, what is your authorization to move items off of this page? -- Zoe

alphabetization is an art... Vera Cruz

moved discussion:

I would like to remind folks who actually delete a page to remove the request entry on this page. This will keep the length of this page manageable. Thanks! David

The entry should stay for a little time to document the discussion leading to the deletion. -- JeLuF 20:11 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

Of course, that is true. However, look at the length of this page! It makes no sense. If most of these pages have been deleted, the corresponding entries on this page should be deleted. But the world doesn't always work in the way that I think is obvious. David 17:21 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)

I've removed the confusing paragraph:

If the content of a page-to-be-deleted exists on some different page, please indicate that, somehow, on the page-to-be-deleted (either by redirecting it to the correctly titled page, or, better for our purposes, putting in a link to it). To facilitate checking that a "page title to be deleted" really ought to be deleted, please don't redirect such pages to page titles to be deleted.

Can we rephrase whatever this is trying to say? -- sannse 16:45 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)

I searched all over the place, but I could not find an appropriate place to put this. I have a request to block an IP. 4.18.224.162 has visited Wikipedia on two separate occassions and deleted information and posting graffiti. Kingturtle 01:51 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

Could we reduce or remove that large block of text at the top of the page that explains how to use this page? Perhaps with its own page and a link there? This page gets large enough as it is, and for some browsers, it's hard to edit. -- Zoe

could somebody please clean up the votes for deletion page to avoid me unvolontarily deleting the end of it when I edit it please ? Anthere

Proposed reorganization

  1. Create a Wikipedia:Suspected copyright material page to list copyright violations.
  2. I'd also like to remove "Page titles should stay listed for a minimum of a week before a decision is made." - in some cases a page is obvious junk "my cat's name is mittens" for example. Something like that can be deleted right away, IMO -- Tarquin 12:16 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Tarquin, I was about to suggest that we split it a different way. Lots of pages are really obvious junk and don't need to be discussed or pondered. All that is needed is for someone with delete rights to be made aware of them - i.e., page where JoeUser can let the next admin who looks at it know that Silly page with content "ku8746853474#&%$&^(6" exists. It might be called Wikipedia:Trivial deletions or something like that. Tannin

I think we should follow reverse linking for deleting pages. IE, to delete a page, just link from it to wikipedia:ConsiderPageDeletion. Reasons for deletion go on the talk page. Then sysops go to wikipedia:ConsiderPageDeletion, click "what links here", review the talk, and (if appropriate) delete the page. Similarly for images, although the discussion can go directly on the image description page normally.

An alternative way would be to split up images, main namespace articles, pages in the wikipedia: or talk: namespaces. Stuff in the user: namespace already goes elsewhere. While sometimes a page might be listed on votes for deletion for both possible copyright and other reasons, everyone can tell the difference between an image and a talk page... :) Martin

Is there no way that such images can be deleted automatically? It seems to me that if an image is changed from a .jpg to a .png with an otherwise identical file name, then there isn't really any need for a vote or a human to make a judgement. Can the software be ammended? Theresa knott 13:15 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

You could replace the software in Martin's brain, allowing him to delete images without being so overcautious. That would do the trick, I think. He is a sysop, after all. ;) -- Tim Starling 13:26 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)
However, in some cases there might still be pages that use the old picture, and a less diligent user may not update every page that uses it. Perhaps it could automatically redirect to the PNG? I don't know how well/easily that would work. -- John Owens 16:36 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

My overcaution is a product of seeing what happens when sysops on other websites abuse their powers. I'm happy to be bold when I'm doing stuff that anyone can do - but I am always going to be cautious when making use of godly powers. After all, you don't need to be evil to do evil things... Martin 01:45 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

It's a fair point you make. Better to be too cautious than not cautious enough. Anyway I am not a sysop, yet I might want to change a jpeg to a png. At the moment i have to put the jpeg on this page to get rid of it. I note that bmp images are now being discussed on votes for deletion. It would be nice if anyone could just update these to jpeg or png without having to go through votes for deletion to get rid of the bloatfile. Theresa knott 07:52 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Moved from Village Pump

Could a sysop please deleted some of the articles at the top of Votes for deletion page, and decrease the size of this page. I cannot edit that page without erasing the bottom, most recent comments. Thanks User:anthere

I suggested a while ago that we split that page into a) suspected copyright violations, which we leave for a week before deleting, and b) all the other junk. Not that many people were in favour at the time, and I can't remember where the discussion was -- Tarquin 09:47 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
I tend to agree with you. Also, the top of that page is very long and detailed. Why not condensing that info, and put all the details in a separate page ? ant
We already have done! See Wikipedia:Policy on permanent deletion of pages. Martin

As for deleting some of the pages at the top: we have a policy of leaving them there for a week before deletion. I could probably remove some of the resolved entries, but when there's little discussion on an entry it's hard to judge the consensus. I think Tarquin's idea of splitting off suspected copyright violations is a great idea. The intro could probably be reduced: it takes up about 2KB at the moment. -- Tim Starling 11:21 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to make a suggestion. Currently the policy at the top says that we shouldn't list:

  • pages that can easily and sensibly be redirected to another page.

Perhaps it should be changed to :

DO NOT LIST PAGES THAT CAN EASILY AND SENSIBLY BE REDIRECTED TO ANOTHER PAGE.



or something like that because people don't seem to be geting the message. -- Tim Starling 00:45 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

Heh. Guilty. I've redirected (and removed from the page) one of the things I put up, but can't think of a sensible redirect for the others... -- Evercat 01:11 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

Also, I realise now that I've probably been over-zealous in listing garbage new pages here. I guess just blanking them and letting an op spot them is good enough, no need to list here? -- Evercat 02:17 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

I disagree, because

WATCH OUT AT WHAT MAY BE CALLED SENSIBLY


I think garbage pages should be listed here. There's no official policy as far as I know, but if you don't list them they could easily fall through the cracks. However, it's probably a good idea to leave them for 20 minutes or so before you list them, because there's often a sysop or two hanging around, deleting pages in batches. -- Tim Starling 02:28 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
I've been thinking that perhaps we could split this up into more than the so-far suggested two pages, one for copyright and one for everything else, and add one for the obviously worthless kind of stuff that you're talking about. I think that would be about as far as it should go though, we don't want to end up with 37 pages to check to find whether an article is already nominated or not, after all. -- John Owens 05:56 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

That pink bit above was added by Anthere. Anthere, do you mean "watch out for articles that can [should?] be named sensibly"? What do you mean exactly? -- Tim Starling

well...pink is a nice color, right ?
In short, when someone takes the time to try to broaden a topic which is little treated on Wikipedia, add some links to fill, and find all these links, by dozens, redirected to only a couple of very broad articles, it is not necessarily seen as sensible. I fail to see how Food quality, Sustainable agriculture, Food and agricultural policy, Over-grazing, Farming practices, Integrated fertilizer management, Conservation agriculture, Integrated pest management, Farming system and intensive agriculture - all of them redirecting to agriculture is sensible. I prefer to see these links empty, than to see them all redirecting to agriculture. Since nobody wanted to delete them, the only place left was to put them here.
Sensible is a touchy matter and judging the interest or opportunity of a redirect is not always easy.

Fair comment. I often see the case where we have a broad article, linking to more specific subfields (which initially do not have articles). Some vandal comes along and writes a silly comment in a subfield article. Then a non-sysop replaces the nonsense with a redirect back to the broad article, thereby creating a self-referential link. Very annoying. But would you agree that we get far too many entries which are eventually removed after being replaced by a redirect? Some recent examples: Quote Schrödinger cat, Greywater, Images of Rachel Corrie, cultivars, Banishing crows from a field, Global Greens web site, General Systems Theory. -- Tim Starling 03:04 May 1, 2003 (UTC)
I checked a couple of them, and yes, that is rather true the redirect are quite fairly obvious (except one). Cultivar is a *unique* example :-))).
If I may say however, I disagree with your point on greywater. Fact is, I put it here myself, because it was part of the whole bunch of articles Budda redirected either to recycling or to sewage treatment,. I put greywater because I think I could put...hum...say, at least 30 lines on this one, dealing only with grey water, and making sense to be in this article, and not in another. As things are, I got tired to blank the content of bad redirect these days, and I unilateraly decided that I would specifically do nothing for that grey water article (and a couple of others actually). Redirected it is, redirected it will stay. This could perhaps be called KillingWillingness.
Unfortunate.
Consequently, between my examples, and your examples, I don't see any hard rules to set. Notice yes. You may put the notice (perhaps not that big), in particular with a couple of examples (such as cultivar). And I will go on putting my links. Is that correct ? :-)

User or users from 152.163.18x.xxx have created some articles of dubious relevance: Sarah Marple-Cantrell, Joseph D'Apice, Suneetha Jayaseelan. Kingturtle 02:29 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

I deleted those first two, before they were listed here (or at least before I read them here). I didn't delete the last one because I didn't know if she was someone we should know or not. -- Zoe
Uh oh. i may have made a little mistake. i removed a few things from Votes for deletion because i deemed them resolved. then it occured to me that maybe everything is meant to remain there for history's sake. was i right in deleting resolved items? or should all resolved items remain in the meta page? Kingturtle 22:10 May 12, 2003 (UTC)
If they are of general interest they can stay for some time. If they are just about some graffiti they can be deleted immediately. That's the way I handle it usually. If we would like to keep them all, we would have huge pages ... -- JeLuF 22:37 May 12, 2003 (UTC)
P.S. I honestly thought today was May 14th. I deleted a few things posted here May 7th. Won't happen again. Kingturtle 22:14 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Why is it that I'm required to list every entry that I think should be deleted here, but nobody else is required to follow the rule that they stay here for a week before being deleted? -- Zoe

Consider this a safety rule. Junk pages can be deleted immediately, no matter where they are found. --Eloquence 19:34 19 May 2003 (UTC)
The Cunctator is hardly in a position to lecture Zoe about bilateralism: check out this edit by him. Not to mention the recent complaints on WikiEN-L. -- Tim Starling 00:03 20 May 2003 (UTC)

I am the copyright holder of my essay on levity about Browne. Can i please now continue to polish and edit for wikipedia or not ? Not such a good welcome but i suppose poss. copyright infrigements must be taken seriously. Look and compare author's names before impending me please. Norwikian

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