Talk:Vorkuta

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[edit] Stalin's citation

The Stalin's citation was widely used in Propaganda posters even in Brezhnev time (obviously without attribution). It had no prison associations, I even think it was strongly discouraged from the usage in the Labor Camps. That is while I admire the quick wit of the author of the caption, I do not think the comparison is appropriate for the encyclopedic article. abakharev 02:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compare with Arbeit macht frei

The sentence Compare with Arbeit macht frei conflicts with NPOV. It is not a fact: it's journalistic, it's like an essay, it seeks to direct the thoughts of the viewer in a certain, negative, direction. A well-informed reader does not need such a 'compare with arbeit macht frei' hint. It's original research as well: an essay comparing slogans used by nazis and stalinists might be interesting, but this is not the right place to do so. Just my 2 cents, -- Gerrit ^CUTEDH 15:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt and Molobo have a great eyesight but here they are blinded by their Russophobia if they can't see the obvious inapplicability of this comparison.

If anyone thinks the the Soviet slogans were intended to be sacrastic in any way, it just shows the complete lack of understanding of the subject. Similar nonsense is that Soviets in their propaganda would draw any connection with the Nazis. The worst offense, though, is your calling others' edit vandalism.

It may have been a while since Halibutt last time checked WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:VAND#What vandalism is not. Maybe he could spend 10 minutes on reading up. I am not even suggesting that he rereads WP:NPOV because I don't think it could make any effect on this user. --Irpen 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This contribution by Irpen doesn't exactly have an impression of being civil to me either. I don't care it the comparison as accurate or not, and it doesn't matter, because it's not encyclopedic. Gerrit ^CUTEDH 09:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that such a comparison would indeed direct the thoughts of the viewer in a certain, negative, direction if it wasn't about Vorkuta. Come on, it works both ways and there was little difference between Vorkuta and German work camps anyway. After all how could one make the readers feel that Vorkuta was worse than it was when there was nothing worse to compare it with? Similar death toll, similar mortality rate, similar slogans at the gates and similar idea behind the creation of the camps. The very article on labour camp states that clearly, not to mention zillions of sources. //Halibutt 16:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case it would be redundant. But Auschwitz was an extermination camp, Vorkuta a labour camp. And Vorkuta is a city, so we if we focus on the camp we should really split the city from the camp, like with Auschwits/Oswiecim. A reader can make the mental association by the facts: the facts are enough. Compare with Arbeit macht frei is not a fact. Gerrit ^CUTEDH 10:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of the gate picture is in itself POV. It is evident that the average reader can and will make the mental association with the more famous Auschwitz gate. Adding an explicit reference is thus quite unnecessary to make the point. (No, I am not proposing the deletion of the picture :-) Petri Krohn 08:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

But Monowitz, Dora, Mauthausen and hundreds more (http://www.deathcamps.org/websites/jmottopl.htm) also did have the Arbeit macht frei sign and were labour camps. Besides, we have a pretty decent source to compare the very same picture with the German slogan, so it's not even original research. //Halibutt 11:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

If you want to push the issue, you can start an article on Communism is Nazism, with both sides of the "argument". This is not the place for the argument and certainly not the place for one-sided POV. -- Petri Krohn 14:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Get it! The sign is not in the entrance to the camp. It is in the entrance to the city. --Irpen 14:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Petri Krohn, firstly I was deeply offended by both your assumption that I'm a Nazi and your failure to check the source attached. Currently we have two points of view here: one (supported by a source) that the gate slogans were similar, and one that they were not. The latter however is based purely on original research of the revert warriors who took no part in this discussion so far. Want to take sides with one of the partisans here? Fine, but please do it in a civilized way. And please refer to my arguments, and not to what you believe. As to what Irpen wrote: the town and the camp were the same, as the town was a part of the Gulag system, built by the Zeks and for the Zeks and their guards. It wasn't until 1960's that the town was partially opened. Besides, how does it add to the fact that the picture is commonly used to compare Nazi and Soviet gateway slogans? Does it make my arguments less valid? //Halibutt 15:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you might write something like this: ... the image was widely circulated in the west by critics of communism in an attempt to equate communist ideology with Nazism. (Compare the slogan with "Arbeit macht frei".)

That is of course if the image was indeed widely circulated, and did not only appear in one or a few books or web sites. -- Petri Krohn 17:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Frankly speaking I could barely imagine supporters of communism mentioning Vorkuta at all.. //Halibutt 17:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lockdown

The page has now been locked from editing by Ezhiki.

I removed the image completely before the lockdown. The reasons:

1. The image was originally inserted as an attempt to equate Communist and Nazi ideologies. This is evident from the original caption, that included the disputed comparison.
2. The article is about the city of Vorkuta, not in particular the labor camps. The image adds very little information.

-- Petri Krohn 14:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The image is of the entrance to the city! That Halibutt wanted to make a point of it is neither appropriate nor surprizing. But we sould use it since we don't have any others. --Irpen 15:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the entrance to a town was at the same time the entrance to the camp, as pointed out above. I'm glad Irpen finally joined the talk page after asked by yours truly to do so several times in a row. However, I still fail to see why such a comparison should not be made. What made the slogans at the entrance to Mauthausen, Monowitz or Auschwitz different from those to Solovev island camps, Vorkuta or Komi lagers? Is such comparison offensive - and if so to which camps - the German or the Soviet ones? Or perhaps there is something I'm missing here, perhaps the Vorkuta lagers were just peaceful villages for happy workers and such comparison equates them with German brutal work camps falsely? //Halibutt 15:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, please don't spread lies. Check the history of this page. I explained myself above several times. --Irpen 17:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Slogans about the value of labor on gates of "brutal work camps" are quite appropriate. No one can disagree with the message, or whether the authors really meant what the text said.

The problem is that most of the Nazi camps were not brutal labor camps but places of industrial extermination. The Nazi slogan is universally seen as a Big Lie. -- Petri Krohn 16:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I am second to Irpen, that the image of the entrance is valid and relevant. The comparison with Nazi is POV and is suitable for a signed essay, not for a neutral article. The phrase such and such author compared it with the Auschwitz's is OK. abakharev 16:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

And Vorkuta was not, I assume? Wrong, gentlemen. If I spread lies about Vorkuta, then so are the majority of authors who ever published anything on the Gulag system. Vorkuta used to be the capital of one of the largest Gulag systems and the largest in the European part of the USSR[1]. Until the very end of the Vorkutlag, the reason for its existence was extermination through labour (Vernichtung durch Arbeit in German, if you like the comparisons) in the concentration camps[2][3] and not economical profits of the inmates' slave[4] labour[5] [6] . It has also been a symbol of many of the most tragic places in the world, along with Magadan, Auschwitz and Hiroshima[7]. Altogether, during its existence, Vorkuta claimed more lives than Auschwitz[8], which by no means rehabilitates the latter). Altogether, more people have been incarcerated in Soviet camps than in German camps at any given time[9]. In late 1950s the Vorkutlag camps had still more prisoners than, say, the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp complex with its up to 100 sub-camps[10]. If there was a notable difference between them it was the number of armed uprisings against the guards[11]. Another notable difference was that, after their liberation, the prisoners of Nazi Germany could go home and try to live normal life. In Vorkuta this was impossible[12].

And so on, and so forth. Now, before you call me a Nazi again, call the authors of these books with the same offence. //Halibutt 19:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Vorkuta claimed more lives than Auschwitz" (or "more human beings perished there than at Auschwitz" as Norman Davies states it in his book). By the way: this website speaks about Norman Davies as "Davies exaggerates these things, IMO." here I read [...]"A million more"[...] and this website claims even 6 million. But has there ever been made an attempt to make an estimate of Vorkuta alone and would it even be possible? Don't forget that estimates are always "a matter of power" in these kind of controversial events; comparisons are no exception... --Hardscarf 00:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note

I left a note to Humus sapiens who added both the image and its caption to the article in September 2004. Hopefully he'll join you folks and provide his reasoning.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 15:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but this may be something to consider. Do we have to worry about copyright or plagiarism in regards to the caption text?--Andrew c 20:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The image was indeed uploaded by me. I don't remember writing the "compare" phrase, but I think that an encyclopedia should not use imperative mood. As for political implications, both examples seem to belong to Propaganda. IMHO, this article should talk about the city, its history, geography, demography, etc, and the image belongs here as an important part of its history.

As to copyright/plagiarism, I don't see how it may be relevant here. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do we need protection then?

OK, with all the above, I don't see how Halibutt will be persisting with this. As such, I think we can safely have an article unrpotected and return the pic that won't be be getting the frivolous caption anymore. --Irpen 23:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course I will be persisting with this. In fact I would have to hear a single argument from those who started the revert war. You yourself on other occasion insisted on a much more POV picture with a truly POV caption. Why is this situation different? There at least you stated your views, here - not yet. //Halibutt 01:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you read above? --Irpen 02:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup. So far your arguments were:

1. Halibutt and Molobo have a great eyesight but here they are blinded by their Russophobia (slander)
2. It may have been a while since Halibutt last time checked WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:VAND#What vandalism is not. (slander)
3. I am not even suggesting that he rereads WP:NPOV because I don't think it could make any effect on this user (slander)
4. The sign is not in the entrance to the camp. It is in the entrance to the city. (a valid point, but completely missed, as it doesn't change anything here)
5. That Halibutt wanted to make a point of it is neither appropriate nor surprizing. (slander? at least accusation of bad faith)
6. Halibutt, please don't spread lies (not an argument I guess)

Could you point me to a valid argument you posted here that would explain not "why Halibutt is a bad guy" but "why the caption should not include the comparison"? I couldn't find one. //Halibutt 11:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I propose the image be returned with the following caption:

Vorkuta entrance circa early 1950s. The sign reads: "Labor in the USSR is a matter of honor, glory, pride and heroism" (popular citation from Joseph Stalin Report to the 16th Congress of the CPSU).

This image was widely circulated in the west by critics of communism in an attempt to equate communist ideology with Nazism. (Comparing the slogan with "Arbeit macht frei".)

Any changes to the caption, without first agreeing on the talk page, may me immediately reverted. -- Petri Krohn 08:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd go for something like this:

Main gate to Vorkuta in early 1950s. The sign reads: "Labour in the USSR is a matter of honor, glory, pride and heroism" (popular citation from Joseph Stalin Report to the 16th Congress of the CPSU). The image is often used for comparison of the Soviet Gulag with German World War II labour camps using a similar slogan.

//Halibutt 11:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Unacceptable. You are still trying to advance a highly controversial point of view without attributing it to anyone.

I also object to the word gate. Nazi camps had guardied gates. This is not a gate but a ceremonial entrance common in Soviet cities. More like the installations on the sides of modern highways, or a sign saying "Welcome to Las Vagas". [13] (Compare the stars :-) Something like "ceremonial gate" or "triumphal arch" might be more correct.

I did make a small change: "Main entrance to..." -- Petri Krohn 13:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Now you're nitpicking, but that's still better than calling me names (for which BTW you still have not apologized; yet I will not call you names in response). Just add the following reference for it.

^[1]

If you need more examples of the two being compared, then be my guest. Google books alone has dozens of such comparisons, in addition to my own book shelve. A World Apart by Herling-Grudziński, The Gulag Handbook by Rossi, Gulag by Applebaum... [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22].... Let me know should you need more references with comparison of Vorkuta with Auschwitz. There's a lot more than that, even in the web. //Halibutt 02:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warning of image removal

This discussion may become a moot very soon, because today I received a notice of the image removal. I honestly do not remember what library book I've scanned it from. I promise to try, though. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If the image is Soviet and from the early 1950s, doesn't it fall under {{PD-Soviet}}?—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 12:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Not if it was first published in the west. The PD-Soviet tag does also require a direct source anyway, as the copyright paranoid bots are quite lazy and generally dislike all blanket categories. //Halibutt 17:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Update

I have unprotected the article—it's been long enough. If the parties are still in disagreement, please continue a discussion here instead of reverting the article back and forth. Thank you.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 19:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)