Talk:Vodou

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Contents 1 Other Vodoun Resources 2 Unencyclopedic explanations 3 Proposal about this topic 4 Queer people reference 5 6,000 yrs? 6 rename of page 7 primitivism? 8 7 or 30,000,000? 9 Categories could be better organised? 10 Clarification 11 Voodoo in the occident 12 Voodoo in Russia? 13 {{NPOV-section}} 14 Vodou 15 Requested move 15.1 Survey 15.2 Discussion 16 Born to a clan-group? 17 Nonsense in the article 18 Naming conventions 19 Voodoo article? 20 Move to "Haitian Vodou"?

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The following article was removed from the main "Voodoo" subject page on the grounds of Vandalism. It is being re-posted here for the sake of the African-American/Diaspora community and others who are interested in how a significant number in the African-American community view their own history as it relates to their ancestral traditions.

For example, Haitian "Voodoo" practiced by less than 1% of Black Americans is not an African-American Religion. It is Haitian, and should not dominate as the sole major religious practice under the African-American religious heading of "Voodoo". The Vodoun deities and their respective traditions are born with the Africans enslaved in America, from West Africa. Many in the Diaspora are experiencing an ancestral re-awakening to return to their deities of origin unprecedented in American history. Hopefully, articles such as the below will begin this much needed process in correcting historical inaccuracies which has often hurt as oppose to assist in their very important process of re-discovery.

It is clear that a separate section must be created on “Vodoun/Vodou” , where the African-American Diaspora can publish their own perspectives and research findings on African/Diaspora Religions, and where the contributions of their religious clergy and scholars can be honored and respected.

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[[NOTE TO READERS]]:

Since the subject of this category is "AFRICAN-AMERICAN RELIGIONS," what follows is an essay on AFRICAN RELIGIONS of the African-American Diaspora, whose ancestors were imported and enslaved in America directly from West Africa. Their cosmogenetic inheritance of the African deities [[born to them]] from their most recent and ancient ancestors, are still extant in WEST AFRICA, and are experiencing a phenomenal come-back in the United States. It is also important to note that the word "Voodoo" is rejected by the African-American Diaspora as an offensive perjorative of their ancestral religions.

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   DEFINITION OF VODOUN

The Vodoun ("Vudu" "Voodoo" "Vodou" "Vodun" "Vaudou" "Vaudaux") religion at its cosmological, theological, ritual and philosophical core, is an African ancestral religion, practiced today largely in West Africa, Haiti and througout the Diaspora. Its fundamental tenants are the honoring of specialized deities typically born to Africans and honored along with their ancient, and recent ancestors, through specific ritual, prayer, evocation, and celebration. On a basic level, these deities are often described and symbolized as "forces of nature," and are honored with specific rites unique to their element. It is this level of Vodoun that is understood and practiced in popular culture. However, the Vodoun religion is far more cosmologically complex, and theologically grounded in the early development of African and global religious civilization than what is displayed in western religious history and culture.

ANCIENT ORIGINS OF VODOUN RELIGION

The Vodoun religion is estimated to have existed for more than 10,000+ years, having its ancient roots in ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, East Africa, India, Asia Minor (ancient Turkey), ancient Crete, Thessalonia, ancient Israel, and in ancient Afro-matrilineal Ionia (later known as "Greece") , and later in ancient Rome. It was in all of these locations where the African, Queen mothers established their powerful temples and theocratic empires. At their height, these African, matriarchal empires reigned for more than 4,000 years—centuries before their conquer by the Dorian Greek invaders (6-7th B.C.E). Until the present, western revisionists credits the ancient social and religious history of these African matriarchs to the Dorian Greeks, and have hidden their cultural theology under "Greek Mythology." The consequence of this action was intended to forever obscure the historical fact that the Vodoun (and other African) religion(s) was one of the major African, ancestral religions practiced all throughout the ancient world. Over the centuries, as the African matriarchs were conquered and their temples seized or destroyed, they migrated westwardly, ultimately settling into the West African region; the religion having adapted to the cutural and language nuances with each new settlement and wave of immigrants. Currently, Benin (ancient Dahomey), the Domincian Republic, Cuba, Brazil, and Haiti are credited with being the "home" of the Vodoun religion by western scholars. However, the actual number of its practitioners and adherents throughout the world are far more numerous.

POPULAR MYTHS OF VODOUN'S ORIGINS IN AMERICA

Haiti is universally credited by western scholars of developing and introducing the “Voodoo” religion into America. Haiti is also credited as the location where "Voodoo" reached its highest philosophical and cultural development. These historic claims though popular, are categorically untrue. Haiti is not where the Vodoun religion was born, nor is it where it reached its highest pinnacle of philosophical, ritual and theological development, nor did they introduce the religion into America. The Vodoun religion was being practiced in America long before Haiti'an influence. There were already powerful Vodoun priests and priestesses, and numerous Vodoun temples present in Louisiana and throughout the United States, many never having even encountered a Haitian. Lack of the fundamental understanding by western, cultural experts of what it means to be “Voodoo” as it is known and understood in West African cosmology, is largely responsible for the perpetuation of this myth.

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Image (right): 'Cudjo Lewis, ‘Cujo’, meaning "born on Wednesday" who was Ewe, was amongst the last shipload of Africans from Dahomey whose ship the “Clothilde,” landed directly in Mobile, Alabama in 1859. After the Civil War, Cudjo and his shipmates founded Plateau, Alabama. The Vodoun religion of Africans enslaved in America came directly in their blood from these and other “serpent worshiping” sibs/clans. Source: National Geographic, Escape From Slavery: Underground Railroad, Vol. 166, No.1., July 1984'. Excerpted from book: -Mami Wata: Africa's Ancient God/dess Unveiled-Reclaiming the Ancient Vodoun Heritage of the Diaspora.

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ENSLAVED AFRICANS BROUGHT THE VODOUN RELIGION TO AMERICA

In West African cosmology, the vodou are divine, specialized deities, whom, along with special ancestral and totemic spirits are cosmogenetically and biologically linked to each African at birth. As such, no individual or group can "introduce" these deities into ones biogenetic sphere. Further, the Africans who were imported and sold into the American slave-holding states, were transported directly from West Africa. The vodou deities and the exoteric “culture of the deities” (religions) also came directly from West Africa into America. The two largest and primary groups of Africans who were transported directly from West Africa into the United States, upon whom the Vodoun religion would soon overlay, were from the Congo and southwestern, Nigeria. The largest West African groups imported into America who actually brought the Vodoun religion with them were mainly from the Ewe, Guin and the Nago groups. The “Nago groups” were the Vodoun-Yoruba worshipers who comprised the inter-ethnic (Ewe-Fon, Edo, Igbo, Ijaw, and other) sub-mixtures, which were long ago established in Badagry, southern Benin and southern Togo. This blend came about as a result of their long history from ancient Ketu, to their continual political and economic struggles through warfare after the establishment of the Dahomean and the Oyo empires. In between both of these nations quest for regional hegemony, there were sparse periods of inter-ethnic marriages, mass migrations, mutual commerce and inter-cultural sharing. It was these primary West African groups who initially laid the cultural, linguistic and the religious substratum for the African spiritual traditions that existed in America.

LATER HAITIAN AND OTHER CULTURAL INFLUENCES

As the exoteric “culture of the deities,” (religious practices) of these initial enslaved African groups were systematically suppressed, each new wave of West Africans imported would simply overlay or "refresh" the older traditions with the new, until they too were forcibly suppressed. However, what is critical to understand is that although the “culture of the deities,” (religious practices) were outwardly suppressed, the deities themselves continued to be born with the African people, and the Vodou traditions though modified, continued in individual African-American families, and ceremonies were held in secret meeting places or masked in early Christian religious worship. Haitian cultural and religious influence was the last to refresh what was clearly the exoteric (outer) cultural expression of the deities. However, even their influence did not began to take root until the early 1800s, shortly after Haiti won their independence, and many disgruntled, white French slaver- holders fled to the U.S. and to Cuba, bringing many of the enslaved Africans with them. The Haitian groups who refreshed and overlaid the diminishing Vodou exoteric culture in America, specifically in Louisiana, were largely from the Fon, a subgroup of the Ewe, and the final group to be imported- which is why their Haitian blends remained the most recent and the most enduring.

The point that is being made, is that the Vodoun religion was introduced into America by the Africans who were directly imported into the slave-holding states from West Africa. Over the centuries, as a system of African religious and cultural suppression was effected in America, the Haitian blended influence being the last, became the most enduring. In time, it too would be ultimately reduced to the present day ethno-botanical and magical folk practices known as “Hudu” (“hoodoo”). It is this Afro-folk tradition that Hollywood and Christian evangelists enjoy labeling as the “Voodoo religion” proper. Finally, making the distinction between the cosmogenetic and biological link that Africans and the Diaspora possess with the vodou spirits and the “popular 'New Age" culture" of worship of the deities, is critical to understanding the consistency and the permanency, and the indestructibility of the unique relationship that the Afro-Diaspora have had with their ancient ancestors and gods for thousands of years.

RELIGIOUS PERSECUTON AND SUPPRESSION OF VODOUN IN AMERICA

There are literally volumes of material available on the history of slavery and its subsequent aftermath on African-American culture and family. However, little if any information is available on the religious persecution and suppression that took place on the plantation and in American culture during and after Reconstruction. In America, the practice of the Vodoun and other African religions were strictly forbidden. On many southern plantations, it was even against the law for any enslaved African to pray to God. The slave owners greatly feared the spiritual powers that many enslaved African priests possessed. Those who were caught praying to God were often brutally penalized, as the following excerpt taken from Peter Randolph's 1893 narrative "Slave Cabin to the Pulpit" recounts:

In some places, if the slaves are caught praying to God, they are whipped more than if they had committed a great crime. The shareholders will allow the slaves to dance, but do not want them to pray to God. Sometimes, when a slave, on being whipped, calls upon God, he is forbidden to do so, under threat of having his throat cut, or brains blown out. Oh, reader! this seems very hard- - that slaves cannot call on their Maker, when the case most needs it. Sometimes the poor slave takes courage to ask his master to let him pray, and is driven away, with the answer, that if discovered praying, his back will pay the bill.

All throughout America, an aggressive campaign was implemented to do away with all African traditional religious practices once and for all. Heavy fines were often levied. Brutal forms of torture, severe beatings, genital castration, lynchings, and even death was imposed on anyone caught practicing any form of the religion. Stringent laws were passed to prevent the Africans from speaking any African languages, building shrines, making ritual drums, or any musical instruments. Family members and neighbors were encouraged to "report" one another if caught practicing any form of the religion.

These medieval laws were so successful, that in less than one generation, the many priests and priestesses who were not murdered, were forced to practice underground, earning Vodoun the undeserved reputation of being “dark and mysterious.” Intentionally mocked as "Voodoo", no clear distinctions were made between the ancestral religious traditions and its beneficent practices, and the "darker" maleficent traditions such as "sorcery, conjuration, and witchcraft." Tantamount to the spiritual-genocidal equivalency of blending Satanism with Christianity proper.

Because the African diaspora welded no significant economic, or political clout, and most of what remained of its priesthood duly maligned and discredited, it became nearly impossible to present the true spiritual reality of what Vodoun actually is, and its profound importance to the spiritual sustenance of the African diaspora. Unfortuantely, many "New Age" believers are inexplicably drawn to the Vodoun religion based upon the belief that it is a magico-cultic blend of the "dark arts," with no clear theological structure, or moral foundation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

VODOUN IN POPULAR CULTURE

Today, with African Traditional and Diaspora religions making a powerful re-emergence especially in America, they have become the tradition of choice among New Agers, Wiccans, and others who are searching for spiritual sustenance and divine meaning in their lives. Additionally, many in the Diaspora are being born with their deities, and are being called to serve as did their enslaved and ancient ancestors. As a result, many are challenging the often racists stereotypes, and mis-information portraying Vodoun as "cultic," "satanic" "magical" and "superstitious." Many too in the Diaspora are demanding that the image of Vodoun reflect its historical and present reality, as being an ancient tradition of ancestral and deity veneration and worship, that is deserving of the same recognition and respect as all religions.

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see also:

Ewe Slaves & Voodoo: America's Hidden Heritage

[edit] Other Vodoun Resources

• Danbala Wedo Botanica
• Vodou facts and products
• Religious Persecution of Vodoun in America
• West African Mami Wata & Diaspora Vodoun
• Misconceptions about Vodoun
• New Boook: Mami Wata: Africa's Ancient God/dess Unveiled-Reclaiming the Ancient Vodoun History and Heritage of the Diaspora
• Interview: African Origins of Vodoun. by Vodoun Priestess Mama Zogbé
• The African Origins of "Voodoo
• "Voodo" Comes Alive in the African-American Diaspora
• Slavery & American Restitution
• Pope Apologizes for Centuries of Demonzing African Religions
• The Religion of the Slaves
• Vodoun Culture of the Ewe & Fon
• Library of Congress Changes the Way it Classifys African Religions
• Slavery and Religion in America
• A Slave In Brooklyn:Archeologists Uncover Ritual Artifacts
• Plates in Graves: An Africanism?

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Good entry. nice direction of growth. sacred topic ;)

Guest on 10 December 2005

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[edit] Unencyclopedic explanations

This was at the very top of the article, and I removed it- if anyone wants to do anything with it, please do.

[[A Simple Understanding to Voodoo]] Voodoo is a religion commonly used by African-Americans in the southern states of the U.S.A and Haiti, which are only 2 out of quite a few places.

It is often pictured as a sinister religion when actually it is not, it is fully established in Western countries of Africa.

It's often mistaken as Hoodoo, which is very different. Hoodoo is a practice, and Voodoo is a religion.

So called Voodoo dolls are not actually associated with Voodoo but are a part of Hoodoo.

I hope this will be read so that the religion and its followers can be respected and understood.

Squeedlyspooch 19:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal about this topic

I propose that "Voodoo" be set up as a disambiguation page with links to separate articles about Haitian Vodou, African Vodun in Benin, and New Orleans Voodoo. If the African Vodun section of the current article gets expanded to the extent it deserves, the current article will become large and unwieldy.

Mike Rock 25 June 2004

[edit] Queer people reference

I object to the removal of the reference to Queer people and replacing it with the term homosexual and am restoring the reference. The terms are not synonyms -- Queer is more inclusive than homosexual, including transgenders, hermaphrodites, and other genderal and sexual identities and orientations. Also to gay people, gay is the preferred term. Homosexual more properly describes sexual acts than personal identity, and that paragraph was about identity, not sexual acts. As everyone knows, people with non-gay identities can engage in homosexual acts. Mike Rock

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I don't think the author of this entry is qualified at all for it. First of all, African Vodou is *not* an obviously syncretistic religion at all; Haitian Vodou is. The syncretism is the common African/popular Catholic sort found as well in Cuba or Brazil. The part that goes "Each Vodun sect follows a different Loa (or Lwa, "mystery"), again confuses African and New World Vodou: the "sects" are an African concept, based on ancestor worship, while the identification of lwa with saints is a New World concept, where the religion syncretises with popular Catholicism. Also, Rada and Petro (concepts which the article does not identify as Haitian) are distorted beyond recognition by labeling them as "good" and "evil". The words denote the major groupings of lwa within the religion; the Rada lwa are the major ones, which have a more generally "pleasant" quality to them, dealing with domains such as courage, love, farming. The Petro are "darker" and more unpredictable, and deal with things such as death. However, the Rada are quite capable of being nasty to you if you don't serve them right, and the Petro will be nice to you if you do; these are not good or evil beings, they are simply beings which represent more or less pleasant or virtuous aspects of life.

The best books for Haitian Vodou are Alfred Métraux's ethnnography of the religion, from the mid 1950's in its French version and with a more recent English translation, and the much more easy to read "Mama Lola" by Karen McCarthy Brown.

If you think there are mistakes and errors in this page, why not edit it and correct them? Jeronimo

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To whoever created the articles on houngan and mambo - the articles do not say anything that the originating article on Voodoo doesn't already state. Hence there is no reason to create them. If there is a clear and valid reason for writing a separate article about these two roles that will present information not contained in this article, then do so, otherwise please leave them as is. Mambo is also a perfectly valid topic (the music/dance form) in it's own right, so it doesn't need a fallacious link. - MMGB

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The name Vodun is derived from the local african word for spirit, and can be traced about 6.000 years back.

What does this mean? That the word is attested in this usage (describing the religion) in documents from circa 4000 BC? Or that some linguist has estimated the existence of a protolanguage with an ancestor of the word "vodun" meaning something like "spirit" circa 4000 BC? Or, something else entirely? -- Brion VIBBER

• • It means it was made up. Doovinator

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Need to merge Voudun and Vodun

Still need to merge. Nov 27 2002

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Isn't this more commonly known as Voodoo? I had to admit my ignorance but I'd never heard of these variations. If this is so, shouldn't the article be moved to Voodoo?

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I have attempted to merge the former Voudun here, and shuffle the two texts together as best as I was able, with some minor editing to avoid duplications. -- IHCOYC 19:57 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

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I don't know enough about the topic to write an article (although it would make for an interesting study, and a first contribution to Wik), but "voodoo dolls" are also referred to as "poppets" (at least in the U.S.), and they are still used. See for example http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/poppets.html RL Barrett 17:14 May 6, 2003 (UTC)

See Poppet; also see Voodoo#Myths and misconceptions. Fuzzypeg☻ 05:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 6,000 yrs?

How can a word in a pre-literate culture be traced back 6,000 years? Even in Europe I would be surprised if any word can be traced back that far. Adam 08:17, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Good question, and one I certainly can't verify for you. You can see above that others have questioned and scoffed in regards to the subject before, without recieving much documentation. I would say some research and a citation would be in order. Sam Spade 18:46, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Historical linguists can use the comparative method to make predictions about words in languages that didn't have written forms. Nohat 20:13, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

documentation, please? Sam Spade 20:26, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Comparative method Nohat 20:30, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't mean that, I ment about voodoo in particular. Sam Spade 20:33, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I don't know. You'd have to look into studies of African historical linguistics. I don't have any hand. The claim does appear to be unsubstantiated, however, and you can go ahead and remove it. Someone can put it back if they can substantiate it. Nohat 20:58, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

I tend to assume things are accurate until they are disproven, I guess I'm some kind of anti-skeptic or something. Besides, I can't seem to find the portion we are discussing anymore anyways. Maybe its already been removed and were just being silly ;) Sam Spade 21:41, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] rename of page

I'm going to move this page to voodoo based on the following evidence that "voodoo" is the more common term, even when referring to the Beninese religion: [1]. Here, "Voodoo" seems to be at least 6 times more common than "Vodun" on pages that contain "Benin" and "religion". Nohat 20:13, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

a good decision, in line w the naming conventions. I assume they felt that vodun was less contentious however. Sam Spade 20:26, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Could there be a less stereotypical way to describe the roles of the Ezili than that they "govern the feminine spheres of life"? Perhaps a list? As long as we're being sensitive to LGBT++ people, let's be sensitive to women too.

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Hmm.. I agree, you're right in the sense it is more vague than intended, I will try to think of a way to make it more precise. This will not happen immediately so please be patient. - Mike Rock

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Are there any major differences in pronounciation among the various spelling variations, 'Voodoo', 'Vodun' 'Vudu', etc.? Turpin

Voodoo and Vudu are ['vu.du]. Vodun is [vo.'dun] (originally [vo.dũ]). kwami 21:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] primitivism?

primitivism, who made u superior?

[edit] 7 or 30,000,000?

Maybe I misunderstood but it seems to me that in the opening paragraphs it says 7 million people practise Voodoo worldwide and then under "African Origins" it mentions 30 million in the west African region. Which is correct?

- Actually the 7 million figure Iused applies to Haiti and its diaspora. The 30 million used by a writer to the African roots section appears to refer to the population of Benin. - Mike Rock

- Oh wait I went back and reread, and I meant the 7 million to apply to Benin, I got that info from the CIA information page on Benin at the time. It is the population of Benin itself, and Voodoo is the official religion of Benin. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bn.html - the author of the 30 million figure may be referring to the entire region of West Africa, as Voodoo is not limited just to Benin but spills into Nigeria and Ghana etc.Mike Rock

Vodun may be a 'national' religion of Benin, but it is in no way official. It's practiced by somewhat more than half the population, but probably less than two thirds: about 15% are Christian (though many of the Beninese "Christians" I have spoken to have added Jesus to a vodun pantheon), 12% Muslim, and not all indigenous religion in Benin is vodun.

Also, the first international vodun conference held in Ouidah in 1991 was attended chiefly by Fon and Yoruba speakers, and indeed these were the two languages used for the presentations. I know little of Yoruba religion, but wonder if maybe the Yoruba should be included among the people who practice vodun. The only way you're going to get 30M vodunists in W Africa is if you include the Yoruba, though I suspect the figure must be exaggerated regardless. kwami 21:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

. According to the 2002 census, the self-identified religious affiliation of the population is reported as 27.1 percent Roman Catholic, 24.4 percent Muslim, 17.3 percent Vodun, 5 percent Celestial Christian, 3.2 percent Methodist, 5.3 percent other Christian, 2.2 percent other Protestant, 6 percent other traditional religions, 1.9 percent other religions, and 6.5 percent no religious affiliation.

[edit] Categories could be better organised?

Some categories associated with Voodoo are 'Category:Vodun deities' and the two pendant categories 'Category:Vodun gods' and 'Category:Vodun goddesses'. The spelling of Vodun indicates Benin, but most of the names listed here are Haitian lwa - and in Haiti at least the lwa aren't strictly considered 'gods'. Perhaps 'divinities' would be better? I also note at least one female lwa has gone under the gods rather than the goddesses; 'divinities' would avoid this confusion. The most useful way of organising would be to have a main category Voodoo divinities containing categories Benin Vodun divinities, Haitian Vodou loa, etc., and even sub-categories such as for the different Haitian nations of lwa... however I don't know if that's quite how Wikipedia intended their category system to be used. I don't know how to go about changing category names, So I'll just leave this as a suggestion for the moment... Fuzzypeg 12:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

Someone said it earlier, and I think it is still relevant: what is the difference between Lukumi and Voodoo /Vodun? Lukumi and Voodoo are both listed as being derived from the Yoruba peoples, yet no distinction is made in the article between them. Are they the same religion called something different in varying regions? Also, how are they related to Candomble, Umbanda, Macumba, Quimbanda and the religion Yoruba? Should these other entries be merged, or listed under African religions, or what? If not please explain the differences if you are able in the entry. *Hint* I'm not writing a paper or essay on this subject. I am looking at it solely from the POV of a Wikipedia editor and the fact that this issue is not addressed is confusing to readers. If no one editing the entry knows, I'm going to throw a request for an expert template on the respective page(s). WeniWidiWiki 16:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Answer: Vodun/Vodou/Voodoo does NOT "come from the Yoruba", and this articles does NOT say that it does.. it comes from the Fon originally, and in Haiti has Congo and Taino elements too. Please point out where it says that Vodou comes from the Yoruba. There are some spirits IN HAITI that are Yoruba in origin but the bases of Vodun in Benin is straight up Fon and in Haiti is Fon and Congo/Taino.

It is "related" to Yoruba religion because these two cultures are adjacent to one other in West Africa, and have in common ancestor reverence, rites of initiation, monotheism, and other features that are nearly universal throughout subsaharan Africa. But make no mistake they are different cultures and especially in the New World, Santeria/Lukumi and Haitian Vodou are extremely distinct and deserve separate treatment.

Mike Rock

[edit] Voodoo in the occident

Voodoo in the occident: http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/display/4954439

[edit] Voodoo in Russia?

Someone inserted this statement: "Since Vodou has such a community orientation, it is sometimes seen as an extention of the beleifs in the old Soviet Union, and, since the dissolution of the USSR, has drawn many Russian initiates." I would either like to see this statement backed up with a citation, or have it removed as a non-sequitur. Mike Rock

Mike, this is vandalism. I saw the same thing recently in the hoodoo page where someone added that the Louis Armstrong song "Wonderful World" contained "invocations to the Loas" and othe bullshit. (See the hoodoo talk page for details). There are people just yanking othes' chains. Get the username or IP address, log it here and if the same name shows up doing lots of similar vandalism, they'll be booted. Catherineyronwode 20:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{NPOV-section}}

I added the tag to the section on Neopaganism. The wording on that is beyond the pale of neutrality, it's a completely value laden statement.--Vidkun 01:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know too much about the topic, but I tried to edit this section so it's not quite such an obvious violation of Wikipedia's POV policy (rich white people...come on, who wrote this?). But, is this section even worth having? -SB

The section is too short, but the issue of Neo-Paganism and Voodoo is important, especially to Haitians, and it should be addressed in a neutral manner. I operate an occult shop and i have dealt with many self-proclaimed Neopagans who have asked me to point them to a place where they can "learn Voodoo." What this leads me to understand is that Voodoo has become quite faddish among Nepagans, but many of the Neopagans seeking to "learn Voodoo" are not even aware that it is an initatic religion and, as such, its teachings and practices are not fully accessible to outsiders who do not become congregants. Catherineyronwode 02:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Catherine, we get the same thing with Wicca. On the Afro-Carribean/Diasporic side of things, I know of a young woman (I don't exactly know what "level" she is at) who practices Palo (Christiano or Judeo I'm not sure which), who was recently denied something she needed for sacrifice at a botanika in Jersey City. Why? Because she is too white, and dressed too goth. Hell, she is in a band, and those are her normal clothes. She is a Cubana, who evidently "passes" . . . so, I guess I understand the issue, but, sometimes it can go too far, you know?--Vidkun 02:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Vidkun, the story of your friend being rebuffed at a botanica due to skin colour and clothing styles is also something i have encountered in African diasporic traditions. There is one Black US-born woman in Georgia (not Afro-Cuban, not African, but African Amerian) who received her initiations in Africa, came back to the US, and now refuses to initiate White people at all -- just flat out refuses. I know this because i continually get calls from people whom she has turned away, and she now has a reputation for racism in the African-diasporic community (which is not notably a racist sub-culture). So tere are racists everywhere. However, that bing said, there are a couple of things your friend could have done: (1) She could have shopped at a botanica friendly to her own house and to her own religion, that is, a botanica that serves Paleros as well as Santeros. I know for a fact that some Santeros deny service to Paleros regardless of skin colour, based on religious competition. This is not racist per se; it is actually similar to a Protstant Christian book store refusing to stock books on Catholic Christian saints or pictures of the Pope. (2) If the shop was friendly to Paleros, she could have given the name of her house, her tata, and so forth, for lineage is of great importance in the African-diasporic tradition, and those who do not give their lineage may be viewed with skepticism or even suspicion until they are personally known to be initiates. I have seen usenet fights rapidly dissolve into smiles when one person gives his lineage, followed by the other doing so. So those are two ideas, anyway. Again, i am not an adherent of these religions, but i know a great many adherents and serve them daily through my occult shop.

Also, kudos to Sonjaaa for adding to the Neopaganism sub-section. I notice with a grin that a bit of my own wording from this talk page was utilized. Thanks for the compliment. :-)

Catherineyronwode 18:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Catherine, it was a shop that was Palo friendly, this girl's godfather goes there. Much of this is excerpted from her account: She walked into the polleria, wearing a black hoodie, high boots, nose ring, dyed hair and camo pants. She was denied the sale of live birds for no discernable reason - denied at a place that her godfather regularly purchases birds at. "We don't sell live birds to customers," the man said as they sold a live bird to another customer. She was shorter and darker skinned than my friend was and spoke spanish to him. Maybe she should have spoken spanish instead of english. Regarding giving her lineage, I think mortification prevented her: she was not about to unzip her hoodie and flash her necklaces - how gaudy. They sell to all the babalawos in town, all the brujos and brujas. --Vidkun 20:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vodou

I'm taking a class in Caribbean Religions and my professor claims that it is offensive to use the term Voodoo. It's essentially the Hollywood word for the religion. Acceptable versions of the word include: Vodou(preferred), Vodoun, Vodu and Vodun. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fredwk4 (talk • contribs) 08:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

A statement by your professor, reported by you, is not a verifiable source which meets Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources. Please feel free to find such a source and post here on the talk page for discussion. As a reminder, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~. KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the term voodoo is offensive; the name of the religion is Vodou, Vodun or Vodoun. Here are two references for this fact. [2] [3]. By Googlehits, Vodou is by far the most common of the three terms. I'll be submitting a move request. -999 22:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Born to a clan-group?

"However, because the Vodou deities are thought to be born to each African clan-group . . . . "

I don't quite understand what this is supposed to mean. What does it mean for a deity to be "born to" a clan-group? — BrianSmithson 17:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense in the article

"The Spiritual Churches of New Orleans are a Christian sect founded by Wisconsin-born Mother Leafy Anderson"

Jesus Christ only tasked males (the 12 apostles and the seventy disciplines) with the spreding of christianity, therefore she cannot found a christian sect. She is a heretic at best. Not even the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, was authorized to preach christianity with a priestly character. 195.70.32.136 09:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Things have changed since. ^{Wiki me up ®}

[edit] Naming conventions

This article still leaves a lot to be desired, and the spellings that are being used are not what is currently put forth by academicians. Please remember that while ethnographies of african diasporic religious groups are over a hundred years old, discourse on the subject is a recent happening.

With the publication of several dissertations in the last two years, and four recent scholarly works on the subject of voodoo in the U.S., it is time to come to some consensus over naming conventions.

These are the generally accepted spellings:

Voodoo - African diasporic spirituality practiced in the U.S.

Vodou - the religion as practiced in Haiti

Vodu(n) - African religion of Benin and as practiced in Togo.

Voodoo is a social construction. The term seems to be used as an umbrella for a wide variety of beliefs and practices - a few of which seem to have rather spurious roots.

Haitian Vodou has been well documented since the thirties. See Harold Courlander, Melville J. Herskovits, Zora Neale Hurston, Katherine Dunham, and Maya Deren.

National Geographic has done a wonderful job of documenting Vodou in both Benin and Togo over the years. Also see Robert Farris Thompson for art history and religious symbolism in these cultures.

Dglossop 01:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voodoo article?

Aaargh! We discussed this and we came up with a consensus to move Voodoo here, to Vodou, and redirect Voodoo to Vodou. Now I find that there is an article at Voodoo, with different material, posing a challenge of integration. Was there some sort of discussion which I don't see here on the talk page about splitting the article in some way? Or did someone just take it upon themselves to create a new article on Voodoo? I'm confused. Kasreyn 02:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, let's discuss major changes to the organisation of information before implementing them. I appreciate the desire to separate three traditions, as well as the popular or fictional accounts of voodoo, but I think there's a better way to do it. It doesn't make much sense to me to have readers type in "voodoo" in the search box and be struck with an extended discussion on spelling. I'd rather see one article as an overview, named Vodou (as per consensus above), with all spellings (voodoo, vodun etc) made into redirects to this article. Then, if desired, more detail could be provided at articles such as Vodou (Haiti), Vodun (Benin), etc. ntennis 03:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. :) Kasreyn 08:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm one of those people who typed in "Voodoo" in the search box, hoping to find an informative article on the religion. Instead, I find an article that spends five or six disorganized introductory paragraphs talking about word usage issues. I would recommend moving any useful content at voodoo to this article and then creating a redirect. Serpent-A 22:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to "Haitian Vodou"?

Since this article is about that, perhaps it should be moved to "Haitian Vodou" or "Vodou in Haiti"? —Ashley Y 07:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Vodou really noteworthy enough to merit multiple articles? Because of course what you are proposing is really a split, not just a move. Kasreyn 07:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)