Talk:Vivian (Paper Mario)
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[edit] Vivian's Gender
"However, in the Japanese version the “Three Shadows Group” uses the word 魔女たち (majotachi), which refers to a group of sorceresses, (i.e. females). Also, words like "her", "she", and "sisters" are also used. Beldam often calls Vivian "man", but this could be explained as Beldam's way of insulting Vivian. More telling is that the menu information describes Vivian as a male, though this also could be a joke showing that Mario (who is apparently journaling the adventure, though that's debatable) misheard that Vivian was male. The word "siren" (is used, etc.) However, "siren" is used only in the English script."
It sounds like somebody is attempting to dance around the issue here--despite fan opinion to the contrary, the Japanese have no problem with making ambiguious characters, or obviously feminine looking characters who turn out to be quite male. Therefore, unless clearly documented evidence is put forth, Vivian is very likely a male in the original, Japanese version and must be noted as such. See also: Bridget. Viewer 04:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide any proof she's male?
In the japanese game it says she is male also they say she is a he they switched it to a she in America because it would make matters worse for the already heated up "gay marriage" thing --69.243.114.155
The "gay marriage thing"? That's rather a stretch, don't you think? In any case, here's proof--scroll down to the heading marked "Vivian". I'll repost it here, also:
Party member description:
Japanese text: カゲ三人組の一人だった オンナのコのようで ホントは オトコのコ (Rough translation: "One of the shadow group, Vivian appears to be a girl but is really a boy.")
English text: One of the Shadow Sirens, Vivian suffers from a bit of an inferiority complex.
Excerpt from Goombella's tattle:
Japanese text: 『ビビアン』よ カゲ三人組の一人で いちばん下の妹 ・・・じゃなくて 弟ね (Rough translation: "That's Vivian. Of the shadow group, she's the youngest sister... er, brother.")
English text: That's Vivian. She's the youngest of the three Shadow Sirens. Viewer 03:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Gee, ever think maybe that description came from Beldam calling her a man as an INSULT {keep in mind that Beldam thinks she's beautiful and Vivian's ugly}? It's supposed to be like Mario's journal or something, and he was there when Beldam said that, so of course he might think she's a guy.
Also keep in mind that the page claims Birdo {Japanese name Catherine} was once a guy, when she never was {that confusion was thanks to a horrible mistranslation in the manual}. Ironic, coming from the same site that once debunked the Birdo myth.
And about the reference to Bridget at the top--hardly the same thing.
- I don't have much to contribute except two things... First off, it wasn't a mistranslation. Birdo is called a guy in the original Japanese games, including Doki Doki Panic. It's Nintendo of America that removed that information to avoid further controversy. This is also clearly seen in Birdo's Japanese Trophy for Super Smash Bros. Melee. Secondly, on a Japanese page when Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was about to be released in Japan, someone (I think one of the designers) showed artwork of Vivian. One of the comments from a Japanese viewer commented (and I'm paraphrasing the translation), "It had me fooled, but it is a man. It is so cute." I highly doubt that one fluent in Japanese got confused in this case. Unfortunately, I cannot show you the page because I've lost it, and I don't know if it still exists in the form that it has.
"First off, it wasn't a mistranslation. Birdo is called a guy in the original Japanese games, including Doki Doki Panic. It's Nintendo of America that removed that information to avoid further controversy. This is also clearly seen in Birdo's Japanese Trophy for Super Smash Bros. Melee."
LOL, that's a good one. No, they actually mixed up Birdo and Ostro's descriptions in the ENGLISH manual, which counts as a mistranslation. That has been common knowledge for almost a decade, especially since American players were pretty much the ONLY ones to claim Birdo was a guy. Nintendo officially stated long ago that Birdo being a guy was a mistake in the SMB2 manual. And how is it "clearly seen" in the trophy?
And furthermore, there's obviously more than one Birdo anyhow, so who the hell cares?
"Secondly, on a Japanese page when Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was about to be released in Japan, someone (I think one of the designers) showed artwork of Vivian. One of the comments from a Japanese viewer commented (and I'm paraphrasing the translation), "It had me fooled, but it is a man. It is so cute." I highly doubt that one fluent in Japanese got confused in this case."
Seems possible to me, considering how confusing their language is, even to the Japanese themselves {look at the Hoko-ji Temple bell incident, for example}. I mean, they have at least four different writing styles if you include Romaji, and numerous ways of writing or pronouncing certain words {the kanji for the number eight, for example, can be pronounced ya, pachi, or hachi}.
"Unfortunately, I cannot show you the page because I've lost it, and I don't know if it still exists in the form that it has."
Uh-huh. How convenient. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything; just saying it's strangely convenient that you can't actually provide the "proof".
- "LOL, that's a good one. No, they actually mixed up Birdo and Ostro's descriptions in the ENGLISH manual, which counts as a mistranslation. That has been common knowledge for almost a decade, especially since American players were pretty much the ONLY ones to claim Birdo was a guy. Nintendo officially stated long ago that Birdo being a guy was a mistake in the SMB2 manual. And how is it "clearly seen" in the trophy?" "And furthermore, there's obviously more than one Birdo anyhow, so who the hell cares?"
No... In Doki Doki Panic, Birdo was a guy. Doki Doki Panic preceeded the American release, known as Super Mario Bros. 2. And the Japanese games call Birdo a guy. This 'girl/guy' confusion only exists mong non-Japanese fans. And by 'clearly seen', I mean that, if you set the language to Japanese, you can read (assuming you can translate from Japanese) that Birdo is male, but prefers to be identified with females. People assume that a feminine name means a female character, but directly reading official profiles, that is not the case. Yes, Birdo and Ostro's names were accidentally switched when first localized. That's irrevelent. Otherwise, Nintendo of America did a good job of localization the first time around (the descriptions weren't switched around, by the way, just the names themselves, which is forgiveable since they aren't exactly copies from the Japanese Doki Doki Panic names)... They even carried the info "Catherine prefers to be called Cathy" to "Birdo prefers to be called Birdetta". The only reason Nintendo of America called Birdo a girl later, presumeably, to avoid controversy. And yes, there are more than one Birdo, but we're talking about the individual character instead of the species (like Yoshi, Toad, etc.).
"Seems possible to me, considering how confusing their language is, even to the Japanese themselves {look at the Hoko-ji Temple bell incident, for example}. I mean, they have at least four different writing styles if you include Romaji, and numerous ways of writing or pronouncing certain words {the kanji for the number eight, for example, can be pronounced ya, pachi, or hachi}."
I suppose that's true. It still seems a bit iffy to me, though.
"Uh-huh. How convenient. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything; just saying it's strangely convenient that you can't actually provide the "proof"."
It's an old site, and I've only been there one or twice via a direct link... I can try to find it again.
"No... In Doki Doki Panic, Birdo was a guy. Doki Doki Panic preceeded the American release, known as Super Mario Bros. 2. And the Japanese games call Birdo a guy."
Except in Mario Tennis onward {yes, it's a girl in both versions of every Mario game between 2000 and the present}, but it may be a different Birdo in recent games {note also that they're obviously trying, in both Japan and the English-speaking world, to hook up Yoshi and the current Birdo--and last time I checked, Nintendo has never tried to make Yoshi gay}.
"I suppose that's true. It still seems a bit iffy to me, though."
I don't find it "iffy" at all, considering what I just explained about their confusing language.
"It's an old site, and I've only been there one or twice via a direct link... I can try to find it again."
Won't do me any good--no computer I have access to has the capability to even show Japanese lettering, let alone the ability to translate it for me.
"Except in Mario Tennis onward {yes, it's a girl in both versions of every Mario game between 2000 and the present}, but it may be a different Birdo in recent games {note also that they're obviously trying, in both Japan and the English-speaking world, to hook up Yoshi and the current Birdo--and last time I checked, Nintendo has never tried to make Yoshi gay}."
They're not really making Yoshi gay, if that's what you're thinking: According to statements made by Nintendo of Japan, the Yoshi species is officially asexual (Super Smash Bros. Melee, again, also had this info in Yoshi's Japanese Trophy, but was edited out of the English release). And yes, Japan still calls Catherine/Birdo male; for example, the Japanese Mario Kart: Double Dash site says something to the effect of this on his profile, "Seems to be Yoshi's girlfriend... or should we say, boyfriend?"
"I don't find it "iffy" at all, considering what I just explained about their confusing language."
... 'Kay.
"Won't do me any good--no computer I have access to has the capability to even show Japanese lettering, let alone the ability to translate it for me."
What about Babelfish? I know it's not perfect, but still...
WILL YOU GUYS SHUT UP?! Your making things dificult for Vivian fans.
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- Can it about Birdo and please sign your posts. Birdo has always been female in the Japanese version. It was an American Manual screw-up that said she was a guy. Even if she wasn't a girl at first, she is now, as the Japanese MKDD says that she and Yoshi are involved, and there is absolutely no indication that Yoshi is gay. Back to Vivian. Another posible dicrepancy is that the Japanese do not often use gender-specific words, probably because they think it is obvious which gender is being referred to. If you look at it this way, ambiguous characters like Vivian are pretty much a big pun. (Resists urge to make Sailor Moon joke) Belgium EO 18:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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... Regardless, it seems that it wasn't an American mistake after all, contrary to popular opinion. New translations of Japanese sources indicate that Birdo (Catherine) is male. This is a statement. A verified fact, unlike Vivian who appears to be a lot more ambiguous. But enough about Birdo. Rather, if anyone wants to talk more about Birdo, or even do some actual contributing and provide more accurate translations than what we already have in regards to Birdo, then bring it to it's own page, not here. It's starting to get off-topic, so let's leave Birdo out of this and keep it to it's own page. And leave any opinion and/or speculation out of both. Keep it real, folks. If it's official, it's official. End of story.
