Talk:Virginia Military Institute/archive1
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archived discussion from spring 2005 to August 8, 2005. Let's hope this movement to the archive will suppress all the blankings and reversions. Hal Jespersen 00:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Please do not edit this archive. If you have new comments, put them into Talk:Virginia_Military_Institute
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Claim: largest per student endowment of any public college
Need a source for the claim that "VMI's nearly $300 million endowment, the largest per student endowment of any public college or university in the United States." A quick Google shows other colleges claiming the same thing. User:Rillian
Sources for Endowment claim
Sources are as follows: The Petersen's Guide to Colleges, Unique Colleges, US NEWS, and the Princeton Review, to name a few. User:Backrow
- Found the NACUBO survey for 2004 released February 2005 at http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPress.pdf. Total endowment is listed at $271,889,000 but no per student ratings. User:Rillian
- Check out "Unique Colleges" and others such as US News, Princeton Review, Petersen's, etc.
- Princeton has a per student endowment of $1.32 million. Dividing $272 million by 1,333 gives VMI a per student endowment of $204,051. This is comparing private to public, so still looking. Can't find "Unique Colleges" on the Web. Other sources just repeat the VMI claim. Need to find a ranking that combines the NACUBO endowment amounts divided by students for public schools. User:Rillian
- Take note of your own statement: " the largest per student endowment of any public college or university in the United States" (http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPress.pdf) Your own link provides evidence of the mistake in your statement. Ranking# 165 User:24.58.207.70
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- The key words are public and per student. Those rankings include private and public colleges. For public colleges, VMI ranks highly. When you divide the endowment by the number of students, VMI ranks very high on a per student basis. I have not found any source that contradicts VMI's claim of the "highest per student endowment at a public college." Rillian 13:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Comment To Mistral 3
Mistral3, I assure that the following "advice" given by some users here adhere to Wikipedia standards. Please refer yourself to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution The source for per sudent endowment is an obvious misinformation. While the VMI is ranked #65, there are several (and naturally much larger) public universities and colleges that "outrank" you. Nonetheless your information is based on your own calculation and a pure generalization. You have specifcally stated in your article: "of any public college or university in the United States." Even if this information was correct, even if this link was crucial to the article in regards to the VMI, even if this information had an appropriate link with the appropriate information, the the fact is this information is a pure speculation and thus an opinion (further evident from your source, or lack thereof). We are not arguing, rather we wish that the rules of Wikipedia are followed, something that you ironically seem to know so much about. While this article has seen much improvement, the stubborness to prove some (un)worthy point is astounding. Again the intentions of these discussions were to insure that the VMI does not provide false information as its fundamental purpose is--afterall--an encyclopedia. Take note of the disputes listed by user Rillian. Discussions are welcome and are needed; erasing the page does not erase the dilemma at hand here. User:24.58.207.70
Halloween Pictures
I was just wondering why the Halloween Picture controversy paragraph was removed. IT was reported in several reputable news sources and was a fairly big story and scandal. I'm putting it back in for now. If someone could give a good reason why it shouldn't be in I'll accept it. --Gary123 01:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Major Edits
Is anyone else who worked on this article opposed to the changes made by 68.65.33.175? The article as of 03:47, 16 May 2005 may have had some writing problems but all in all it was a much more complete and in depth article than before the changes. Heres a link to the article before the changes were made http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virginia_Military_Institute&oldid=13961696 I think youll find it to be much more in depth.--Gary123 22:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
- My suggestion is that you selectively restore the specific passages you like rather than merely restoring the entire older version (if that's what your were contemplatng). The guy who did the edit did a good job of relocating the Battle of New Market material, which doesn't belong in this article in such detail. So please don't restore all that. (I am merely interested in the Civil War aspects of this article, so have no opinion about the modern VMI cultural topics.) Hal Jespersen 23:46, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Commissioning Rate
Based on the following sources, notwithstanding the 2005 spike - a five year average of 40% appears to be the most accurate. Rillian 01:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
- From http://roie.schev.edu/four_year/VMI/body.asp?c=1&i=1
- Percent of cadets accepting military commissions
- 2003 40.4%
- Five Year Average 37.9%
- From the VMI Web site: "Cadets must complete classes in one of the Institute's four (Air Force, Army, Marines, or Navy) ROTC programs. ROTC scholarships are awarded on a competitive basis. 40% of each class pursues commissions."
- From the VMI Board of Visitors Meeting, 2 & 4 December 2004, page 4: "...update on the Class of 2004: 46 % (44% in the U.S. Armed Forces) were commissioned, most since 1991"
- From the VMI Board of Visitors Meeting, 2 & 4 December 2004, page 12: "Reports were received from heads of the three ROTC departments. Commissioning figures for 2005 are expected to be: Navy 12 (20 in 2004), Marine 19 (14 in 2004), Air Force 40 (14 in 2004), and Army 50 (68 in 2004)."
Neutral Point of View
Comments from 24.58.207.70
I'm not sure what is going on with all these military pages, but it is just proof of the unfortunate unreliability of some articles placed on Wikipedia. However what is important to note is that Wikipedia is not at fault here, but rather, the maturity of some of its users. Even without being in the military, the "advertisement" of your institution is blatant and intentionally filled with misinformation and "facts" supported by specks of hard evidence, without any confirmed proof. Looking into the history of this discussion only proves it. Using big names such as "Princeton Review" do not justify your information. I would advise that you look up your information correctly and place your article in a non-bias manner. This is an encyclopedia, not a billboard for advertising a product you are affiliated to.
Your article is excellent in regards of its contents, however--again--it is mixed in with factual errors. It is my hope that you will take some of my own research into consideration, subsequently allowing you to correct your own mistakes. I will not play the role of this "Rillian" and try to make actual edits myself, but just realize that there are people who look at this website for fair, accurate, and unbias research.
While I congratulate for VMI being in the placed among the best liberal schools, it is unfortunately not Number 1 and has not been for any 3 years. It is ranked number 77. Please be advised of the following sites: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3753_brief.php http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/tier1/t1libartco_brief.php It appears that Williams College, followed by Swarthmore and Amherst are the top 2 liberal arts schools in the United States
Please also be aware of your information on the institution recieving the largest per student endowment: http://www.virginia.edu/uvimco/openings_3.htm While it is not ranked number one, its amount of $2.0 Billion well-exceeds the VMI. Even without researching, any person of little intelligence and common sense, could easily tell that with a student body of "1,200" would not easily surpass any larger state-college of at least 20,000 students.
Those are just few examples that are an obvious error to even a "civilian". This message is not intended for any other reader but to the person who is directing the progress of this article. Thus it has no effect on whether or not this message gets deleted as long as that specific user reads it (its eventual deletion is an obvious evidence). Again, your article is excellent historically, please keep it that way. Your personal message may reach out to the vulnerable, but to the rest it is well-too exposed and identifiable. That is when Wikipedia (a great resource) is often handicapped of its usefuleness; to researchers, students, and curious minds. User:24.58.207.70 00:46, 14 July 2005
Comment about FACTS
In the future, read articles carefully and with an open mind. VMI has been ranked the #1 PUBLIC Liberal Arts college for the last four years (see source), In 2005, 50% of grads did accept a commission (see source), and 270 million is the largest PER STUDENT endowment of any PUBLIC institution. Those are all facts and you are trying to distort them. Your problem is you are not reading the facts carefully before you try to distort them and put a different spin on them. Sorry for your lack of comprehension. What about the erroneous facts you have entered about South Carolina's military college (see history)...nice try, but you are the biased one, you poor guy. Please leave this site alone and stick to your own propaganda pages. User:207.144.53.83 07:48, 14 July 2005
Comment about FACTS wrongly being disputed
The facts mentioned on VMI's page are correct. Please see the following site about the #1 ranking: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/libartco/libartco_pub_brief.php Check Petersen's and several other sources for the endowment information (per capita and public are key words that should be noted). Obviously, the user Rillian is not paying attention to the words within the article before he deletes them or incorrectly revises them. In 2005, nearly 50% of students were commissioned, but I'm removing that because it really doesn't matter. User:132.50.10.46 15:38, 14 July 2005
Comments from Rillian
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that strictly adheres to the policy of NPOV. Consequently, this article should describe VMI factually. It is not a booster site, it is not the VMI web site, it is not a place for "my school is great, you school is worse" comments. From the policy "Many POV battles would be made much easier through the practice of good research. Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source."
Some current disputes:
- Enrollment: VMI itself says 1,300 - some users keep reducing that to 1,200. Without a credible online source saying otherwise, it should stay at 1,300.
- Commissioning Rate: VMI itself says 40%, many other sources say nearly 40% for the last five years. Using an average of 40% presents the most factual view of the current trend.
- US News ranking: Saying just "#1 public liberal arts college" with no clarification leaves an inaccurate impression and many readers may not realize that "liberal arts college" only refers to 217 colleges in the U.S. and that only 21 of those are public.
- Everyone agrees that VMI is the only public state military college - no need to shout "ONLY"
- "toughest" - NPOV does not support superlatives like best, toughest, most -- based solely on opinion. Without sources that can be cited ranking schools on their degree of toughness, this type of claim does not belong in a Wikipedia article. Otherwise this would degenerate into school supporters constantly uping the ante with "my school is really tough", "no, my school is tough and it rains all the time, etc.
I welcome your comments. Rillian 03:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Response from Billian
- Talk about silly! I've already cited the sources. Just leave VMI alone. 09:16, 15 July 2005
Captions
You should consider putting captions on all your thumb-nailed photos. I would do the edits myself, but don't know precisely what the pictures represent. 15:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Only Classical State Military College?
Someone might want to check the quote that VMI "is the oldest state military college in the United States and the nation's only classical state military college, meaning all VMI students are cadets." I know it's the oldest, but I think all students at the Citadel are cadets... unless something has changed withing the last ten years or so... I could be wrong, just thought I'd bring that to someone's attention. User:24.73.87.14 12:56 2 August 2005
- Yes, VMI is the ONLY classical state military college in the country Checking the facts, yes VMI stands alone as the only all-military state college in the nation. The Citadel, South Carolina's version of VMI, actually has day and night "students" who are not cadets, but get degrees and wear the rings from the college. Also, the Citadel has civilian day or night students playing on their sports teams. In past years, the Citadel has had football players on their team who took the minimum classes required by NCAA regulations in the hope of winning more games. One year, the Citadel had a quarterback who was a former player from Clemson or Auburn that played football under the minimum requirements and then dropped out after the last game. Many VMI alumni have expressed a desire to discontinue playing the Citadel because of how they have been manipulating their athletic teams. All students at VMI are cadets, and every athlete wearing a VMI jersey is a cadet. User:153.26.176.34 07:10, 5 August 2005
Ridiculous Entries
All the facts presented in the article have been proven and documented. Can any other reader see the point of leaving erroneous and wrong info in the discussion pages? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 153.26.176.34 (talk • contribs) 10:39 7 August 2005.
- Talk pages serve as a record of discussion about an article. The discussion history can be useful to future editors. There is no need to remove content, other than personal attacks. If a talk page gets too long, it can be archived. Rillian 20:00, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
