Talk:Viking metal
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Based upon the definition of this subject within the article, I believe Amon Amarth would be more than suitable as an addition to the list of prominent "Viking metal" bands. Equilibrium would also be a worthy candidate. Anyone have a particular opposition to this? --Eldvindr 23:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
To be more clear about the criticism I was given: I have clearly stated I don't believe there are any unique musical aspects in Viking metal that would make it a legitimate sub-genre of music. As this is an information article, I'm not sure how I would go about comparing and contrasting the musical elements of the various "Viking metal" bands. I could certainly make a case presentation about it, taking parts of Viking metal songs and comparing structures and intruments and progressions to other forms of music to see if I could find anything distinct, but I know what the outcome of this would be. The "proof" I was charged to uphold in the article is within the music itself, a truth I am ill-suited to provide evidence for over an informational article such as wikipedia. Its rationalization is just as legitimate as any other sub-genre article written here.
I would accuse people who believe their favorite genre of music is viking metal to be either too general, or ill-informed, but I would not go so far as to say they are wrong. For example, I thoroughly enjoy the music of Ensiferum, which is considered by many to be "viking metal", yet I personally do not enjoy the music of Enslaved, who is also considered "viking metal", and by some, the same genre of music. I would say in this particular case people are mistaken, as the two bands are clearly not of the same musical genre.
This is the main problem with the usage of the term, and I tried to portray that within the article. I believe that covers all points that are relevant to this article, if you have an opinion, question, or suggestion regarding the subject I would love to discuss it. --Eldvindr 03:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well then, let me try to face these misunderstandings head on rather than at the roots if you prefer.
"What I was trying to demonstrate to you with my examples of bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum and Falkenbach was that there is simply not enough of a musical connection between all of these bands to consider Viking metal a musical genre." First you say you point out bands such as Ensiferum or Moonsorrow because bands like that have no musical similarities. No, I did not say there is no musical connection, I was trying to point out the musical connection between these bands are not over the medium of "Viking metal". By "not enough of a musical connection", I stated there are not enough (if any) unique musical elements exclusive to "Viking metal" to consider it a legitimate sub-genre. So indeed, "you say they do have similarities, but not because they're both Viking Metal."
And honestly, who cares what the bands say? This is a fair argument, although you exaggerate the intention of my statement, I only said it was something interesting to note. I shall quote myself, "As I have said I have heard the entirety of Einherjer's discography, and I fully recognize their influence on the genre," (and Moonsorrow) "(which should be included in the article), but I do not believe they were nearly as influential musically or thematically as Bathory."
Next. You're opposing calling Amon Amarth viking metal just because you "prefer" to call them melodeath. Wow, how terribly open-minded of you. Especially when you're okay with calling Enslaved viking metal due to the theme they have. Actually, I am as "opposed" to calling Enslaved Viking metal as I am Amon Amarth, and by "opposed" I mean: It is a loaded term that is potentially misleading in nature, (thus I avoid using it if possible) but has become rooted and there is little I can do but live with it, much like the word "Viking" itself.
I have to step out for a few hours, but I will finish explaining myself soon. My initial intention of putting out the most accurate article on this subject stands, and as such I am willing to be convinced, and would have you not give up just yet until you have said what you have been meaning to say, because I know you have been working towards proving me wrong, and I do not doubt entirely you are capable of it. --Eldvindr 18:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Your knowledge of history is as poor as your reasoning. Even after major discoveries were proven, some narrow-minded groups still didn't believe it. I've proven it's a seperate style by pointing out similarities in those bands, which don't appear in other genres. For example drumming, which I believe you never confronted.
But maybe you should do more proving. Because so far you only keep contradicting yourself. "Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja." the context you keep pointing out never existed. You only try to dodge the arguments. First you say you point out bands such as Ensiferum or Moonsorrow because bands like that have no musical similarities. Once proven wrong you say they do have similarities, but not because they're both Viking Metal. Then you go on stating another genre, apparently just to dodge the similarity argument, because later you neglect you even said that.
And honestly, who cares what the bands say? Nu-Metal bands say they're influenced by bands they have no musical similarities with. Rhapsody say they're playing Movie Score Metal (or whatever it is now). Do you listen to what the bands say or what they're playing? Because if the first, then I'm not surprised you hear no similarities between Viking Metal bands.
Next. You're opposing calling Amon Amarth viking metal just because you "prefer" to call them melodeath. Wow, how terribly open-minded of you. Especially when you're okay with calling Enslaved viking metal due to the theme they have.
And apparently you believe the atmosphere (in your so called Epic Metal) comes out of nowhere. Maybe the bands cast runes on their albums and the atmosphere appears in a magical way. Because instead of pointing out a purely Black/Death/Power/Gothic/Whatever metal band which existed before viking-era Bathory and already had this Epic feeling to it (after all viking metal only takes elements from other genres, right? There is no similarity in those bands and sure as hell no new elements, so the atmosphere must come from other genres) you give example of album which is classed as Viking Metal in the first place.
Your argumentation is poor. You don't point out musical elements of any bands, don't compare musical elements with those of other genres. Don't refer to music, but to what the bands say. Use subjective judgement, as you "prefer" to call bands in some other way. Neglect what you said before, refering to a non-existing context. Don't refer to underground Viking Metal bands which represent the genre better, only mainstream ones which are mixed with other genres in the first place. So what authority in this topic do you believe yourself to have?
I even wonder if you'd be able to point out what differs between Heavy and Power Metal without looking it up before answering. I also wonder how'd you explain for many people Viking Metal is their favorite genre if the bands differ between themselves so much. Like in my case, when I don't even know what half of those bands sing about, when I don't like Black and Death metal, find Power and Heavy cool, but dull in a long run, Gothic and Doom okay only from time to time and Folk Metal great, but as far as folk goes, more enjoyable in a non-metal form.
And by the way, read what you agree to when you submit article to wikipedia. Your answer to my edit shows you didn't do it before. Or that you don't understand. Both with just about same possibility.
I don't see point in carrying on with this, so after your next answer just assume I said "You're right and I'm wrong".
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Yes, you are taking it out of context when you make the claim I referred to Moonsorrow as Progressive metal, because in that sentence I was referring to the progressive aspects on that album in comparison to their other albums. In the words at Moonsorrow.com: "Losing some of the progressive elements, this new epoch entitled Verisäkeet is the band as epic as it gets."
Also, while we're on Moonsorrow, it is interesting to note not one of the members mentioned listening to Einherjer or taking inspiration from them, yet nearly all of them claim that Bathory was a major influence on them, in their own words.
As I have said I have heard the entirety of Einherjer's discography, and I fully recognize their influence on the genre, (which should be included in the article), but I do not believe they were nearly as influential musically or thematically as Bathory.
Apparently you have countered my poor comparisons with an even poorer one. People believe the earth is round? I should hope so, we have proven it. Does viking metal have musical elements that are unique and have been developed uniquely in the "genre" that are not found in other forms of music? I don't believe so, so I emplore you, prove it. --Eldvindr 15:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me check... Yes, that's what I said. They were more influenced by Einherjer, hence musical similarities. And what the hell? "Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja. " <-- you clearly described Moonsorrow as Progressive Metal, I'm taking something out of context?
Did you possibly miss the second paragraph? Because by saying "More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right?" that's how it looks like. I said I can figure out on my own whether band is Viking Metal or not by listening to music rather than lyrics. And the fact that major reviewing websites use it says for something. Does Death Metal describe late Månegarm? No. Black Metal? Not at all. Power, Heavy, Doom, Gothic, Folk? No. When I gave a link to sample from their website on a non-metal related forums, first comment was that the song is awesome, followed by "it's viking metal, isn't it?". People recognise Viking Metal style in the music. And the fact you don't even know Einherjer were very influential for the genre tells me you weren't even trying to look into musical similarities between them and bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum, Thyrfing or Mithotyn. Shows how much effort you've given into this.
"More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right?" Many people also believe the Earth is round, maybe I shouldn't believe they are right depise that I can perceive it on my own as well? Or that there's gravity? Or that there's such music as "metal"? Your comparisons are one word "poor". If I say that I have reasons to believe they are right, then don't come up with such examples as "rumors".
Moonsorrow not influenced by Bathory...?...
And I didn't say Moonsorrow was Progressive metal, don't take it out of my context and use it against me. Kivenkantaja is comparatively Progressive to their earlier material and Verisäkeet.
More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right? This effect is reminiscent of high school rumors. --Eldvindr 00:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see much possibilities in something like that if Moonsorrow is to be called "progressive metal" in here. Seriously, many people keep accepting viking metal as seperate style and it shows among major metal reviewing sites:
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=89
http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=5185
http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/view_band.php?band_id=moonsorrow
On the last website i have to point out the viking metal genre used to be highly opposed, but that changed soon after reviewers started using the term to describe the music. You know, I rarely know what the bands sing about, as many of them sing in Germanic languages which I don't understand. And still, I classify them as viking metal judging by the elements I pointed out before. And you know what? Later I find those bands in various "viking metal" lists. I listen to nearly 40 viking metal bands and not all of them sing about vikings or Norsemen... Pretty big "coincidence", I would think. And by the way, I think Moonsorrow were influenced by Einherjer, not Bathory. They aren't as similar to the latter.
On an additional note, I believe once we fully understand eachother, we should collaborate and revise/update the current article into something more professional, elaborate and comprehensive. That is, if you are not too angry to be able to work with me, haha. --Eldvindr 22:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, the guy is wearing Mjolnir around his neck and is standing in a Dragon ship...
Epic Metal? Blood Fire Death is an excellent example. Among being nordic themed black metal, the atmosphere is epic and this is another element that has been very influential in contemporary metal.
On the theme we are talking about, I am simply saying that Bathory has been by far the most influential band. I am sure you are correct there would still be bands that would make music about Norse mythology, culture and such, but I doubt this theme would be nearly as substantial or developed if Bathory had not existed. So on that note, I think the article should be updated to explain this, but I stand by my statement that Quorthon is the the most prominent and influential artist in "Viking metal". Furthermore, I also agree that this is indeed selling him short, as he accomplished much and had an incalculable influence on metal in general. But, as far as this topic is concerned, all we are concerned with is Viking metal, and the musical and thematic elements he developed that have relevance to it.
Contradicting myself? You still misunderstand. Enslaved is viking themed Black Metal, thus they can be considered both Black metal and Viking metal, Viking metal used to describe the theme of that band.
"Isn't only about themes". Correct, not entirely. Many of these Viking metal bands use similar musical mediums to create this "Viking" atmosphere, what I am saying is that this does not necessarily mean there are unique musical traits we can use to describe "Viking metal" that do not exist as other genres.
Amon Amarth is a Death Metal/Melodic Death Metal band, that happens to be "viking" themed. Therefore, I don't refute the fact they are viking metal, but I would prefer to refer to them as a Melodic Death Metal band. --Eldvindr 22:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
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Plus, what bugs me is how you contradict yourself. First you say Enslaved is Black Metal, a seperate genre, but should be considered Viking Metal, because they use viking themes. Then you go on saying viking metal isn't only about themes and that you also disagree with Amon Amarth being viking metal... Thus I stand by my first assumption about this discussion.
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Erm, as far as I know vikings weren't the only people who used chainmail and swords in medieval times... Or used boats for that matter. Finland had a culture of its own.
I didn't state you said that viking metal is fussion of metal with viking music, only wonder what made you connect what is said about folk metal to viking metal. Also what epic metal? I understand that Black Metal can be epic, but then merging it with Folk Metal, you have bands like Finntroll. So what Epic metal are you talking about?
And yes, of course despise there being bands singing about vikings before Bathory, the band was still utterly influencial for the theme. Because apparently if Bathory didn't start singing about vikings, others bands would suddenly stop singing about them. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but the flaw is just awful.
To put it bluntly, if there were bands singing about vikings before Bathory, then why do you think forthcoming bands were influenced at all? Did metal artists suddenly become so limited that they couldn't be interested by the mythology on their own? Keep in mind I'm not saying Bathory wasn't influencial, I'm only criticizing stating all the influence was about, was creating the theme. It was far more than just that.
You're obviously still misunderstanding me fundamentally. I agree themes isn't enough to call a band viking metal, that is why I called it a "pseudo sub-genre". I've never heard Cruachan so I can not describe to you the musical similarities or lack thereof between the two, nor is it necessary for me to do so. I am only trying to point out the common themes within "Viking metal". Do I notice how some people oppose calling Amon Amarth viking metal? Yes I do, I am one of those people. Do I consider Finntroll viking metal? No, I do not. Am I not explaining myself sufficiently? I have restated myself several times now and I can't seem to get this across. Is Ensiferum "Viking", or "Germanic" themed as I was talking about in my article? You tell me. http://www.ensiferum.com/Pressikuvat/Dragonheads/ENSKA_140.jpg
I did not say that Viking metal is a fusion of metal and viking music, from what I have said, that is an impossible conclusion to draw unless you very much misunderstand me.
"Viking metal" uses types of music, ei. Folk and Epic metal as a medium to express these "Viking" themes and atmosphere.
I am aware there were bands with a Nordic theme before Bathory, such as Manowar, Quorthon even mentioned this (even though he disputed their reputability). But, who do you think had more of an influence on the Viking metal themes we are referring to? Was Enslaved and Moonsorrow more influenced by Bathory or Manowar? Simply put, Bathory was the foundation for this. --Eldvindr 19:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Viking themes isn't enough to call a band "viking metal". Ever noticed how many people oppose classifing Amon Amarth and Doomsword as Viking Metal? Especially those who listen to Viking Metal most. They say those bands only sing about vikings and have no musical similarities with other viking metal bands. And do you consider Finntroll viking metal? No, they don't sing about vikings, but Ensiferum and Turisas don't sing about them either. Yet I remember you pointing out Ensiferum as one of viking metal bands.
Now the Folk Metal bit. I'm still waiting for similarities between Korpiklaani and Cruachan. You go too far with conclusions. Yes, Folk Metal is fussion with folk music, and yes - folk music is music which expresses life of common people. But how did you come up with conclusion that Viking Metal would be a fussion of metal with viking music? Does the above mean Black Metal is fussion of metal with music of afro-american people? Or power metal fussion of metal with music of electricity? No, I only said just like in case of Folk Metal, Viking Metal focuses on creating atmosphere. The difference is Viking Metal creates epic atmosphere. Folk bands don't do that, life of peasants wasn't epic. I think Gjallarhorn describes quite well what scandinavian folk is like... Not epic.
And there were metal bands before Bathory singing about vikings (for example Legend). So what makes you think it was Bathory that started the "viking metal" thing?
And yes, Vikings are confused with Norsemen. Doesn't mean Norsemen of medieval times can be refered to as "vikings".
Yes, "Raunioilla" and "Lost in Despair" have musical similarities, this is because they are the same genre of music, however, this genre of music is not Viking metal. Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja.
This is where your argument is flawed in my opinion. Enslaved can definitely be considered "Viking metal", and should not be thought of as an outcast in the "genre" musically. Instead of having melodic elements in their music, they are a black metal band, a seperate genre, but still "viking" themed. As far as atmosphere is concerned, like I have previously stated many of these bands have similar musical intentions by being viking themed and strive for a pagan, or "medieval" atmosphere to the music, but the way they achieve this is by elements of other musical genres such as black metal and folk metal.
Do I consider Folk Metal a legitimate genre? Yes, I do. Wikipedia states "Folk metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal that incorporates elements of folk music." This is true, this genre is a fusion of metal music aspects and folk metal aspects. What is Viking metal then? Metal with "viking" aspects? That is rediculous. It is true Folk metal is defined as "music which expresses life of common people", and here it would be helpful to clarify that by "folk music", we are referring to old Scandinavian folk music, which is undoubtably different than American folk music for example, as it has unique musical characteristics about it. (Perhaps we could include this in the article).
Why say Bathory was an influence on this "Genre"? Because, it was Quorthon who created this Viking theme which has become prevalent in metal music. Blood Fire Death's influence on Enslaved, and Hammerheart's influence on Falkenbach and such is obvious, but such influences are not music through "Viking metal", but through Black Metal and Folk Metal. True, atmosphere does not come out of nowhere, it can be heard on these Bathory albums and ones influenced by them. Folk, Black, Power, and Death metal don't use the same musical aspects that are in Viking metal? I can't begin to understand why you think that is true, you'll have to explain that to me.
For the record, "cross-genre" is not my wording. In my original article I used "Pseudo sub-genre". Also, I believe that in the future there is a possibility that this theme will develop its own unique musical aspects and will be able to be considered a legitimate sub-genre of metal. But, as it stands currently, this is not the case. --Eldvindr 18:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Remember, "Viking" is a term that has become confusing in modern times, as it both can refer to the Norse people of the time, and the Norse raiders who raided, burned, pillaged and the like. It would be incorrect to assume that these were the same people, in fact, some native Norse people viewed these looting "Vikings" as enemies, and formed their own militias (leidang) to protect themselves from them. --Eldvindr 18:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Listen to Moonsorrow's "Raunioilla" and Ensiferum's "Lost In Despair", they have musical similarities. Just because bands sounds different in general, doesn't mean it's different genre. Otherwise with bands like Rhapsody and Iron Savior, which sound different, the Power Metal genre wouldn't exist. And with just few exceptions (like Enslaved I guess, but I'm still not sure whether they're really viking) all Viking Metal bands share the way of drumming, which does not appear in any other metal genre. Listen to Bathory's "Vinland", Thyrfing's "The Voyager", Falkenbach's "The Heathenish Foray", Nomans Land's "Lord of The Seas", Manegarm's "I Evig Tid"... all have it. The drumming is one of the main ways the viking metal buld the atmosphere, another way is simple guitarwork. Compare the atmosphere when they focus on maintaining the simple melody and when they're going into more complicated solos. I also wonder, do you consider Folk Metal an official metal genre (I think according to the "cross-genre" part you do)? If so, then why? One thing is Folk Metal isn't defined as metal with folk instruments (heck, not even folk music is defined like that) and if it was, bands like Rhapsody would have to join this group. Folk music is defined as music which expresses life of common people (as said by any dictionary, and even wiki). So Folk Metal is defined by nothing but the general atmosphere, and the bands differ greately, just as folk from different parts of world. Unlike Folk Metal, Viking Metal focuses on one region and the music creating the atmosphere is similar. But if you can point out many musical similarities between Korpiklaani and Cruachan then go ahead.
And no, Hammerheart wasn't Black Metal album, but it did have Black Metal influences. Even on Nordland II the influences could be heard, and as such until Einherjer appeared, the Viking Metal elements were mixing themselves with Black Metal. I can rather imagine bands like Thyrfing emerging under influence of Einherjer, not Bathory. Also I might ask you, if you don't see similar elements in various Viking Metal bands, then why are you saying Bathory was influencial for the genre at all? Similar atmosphere doesn't come out of nowhere, for this the bands have to play in somewhat similar way. Cross-over between different genres? Fine, listen to some song by Nomans Land ("Lord of The seas" can be downloaded on their website, although "Breath of the North" or Mithotyn's "The Old Rover" are better examples) and tell me whether it's Folk, Black, Death or Power metal... And then point out representative bands from such genres which actually hold some musical similarities with it.
Also, "vikings" WERE the Norse raiders, also skilled in exploring and bartering.
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All right, sorry for not discussing this beforehand, but I find the discussion which takes place here simply flawed. This is proven by the new comment in form of "Also, for the last time, Viking Metal is a theme, not a musical style, therefore it has no musical characteristics.", which is nothing short of a logical flaw as the valid comment would be "It has no musical characteristics, therefore it's a theme". Instead you prove reason by stating assumed outcome. Smart. And you expect anyone to discuss this topic? Now, Einherjer did have a large influence on the genre. Not only they pushed it away from Black Metal, but also made the elements more visible (and I pointed them out in later section, I'd think that would make it more apparent).
About Bathory's lyrics: "It says: Set your sails And let me take your ship to foreign shores Take farewell of those near you And your land of the North!" (obviously viking custom, since as we all know Vikings were Norse (although not only, see Jomsvikings) raiders and explorers) "God of Thunder Who crack the sky Swing your Hammer Way up high" (and belief) As you see, I did read them.
Further, I did state folk music expresses common life, while viking metal warrior's life. And I stated Falkenbach is a merge of Viking and Folk genres. So what are you trying to prove by pointing out a song which was placed on their most folk-influenced album? And yes, Moonsorrow's music is relatively more simple than that of say, Death Metal bands. Just compare early Amon Amarth (melodeath) with Amon Amarth's latest album (melodeath/viking). Which is more complex? About Ensiferum, they obviously have power metal influences, which shows in guitar work.
I'd gladly discuss this topic in here, but I'd expect some open-mindness, while your "for the last time, it's a theme" attitude tells me that won't happen. I discussed this topic many times before, with many different people. Checked many mainstream and underground viking metal bands to figure out what defines them and what creates this atmosphere. After all this me and many other people came to agreement that it's a seperate style. Thanks to this I kept changing and expanding my knowledge of Viking Metal, but it only happened around people who approached the topic openly. And here I find a discussion with so strong signs of narrow-mindness that it seems as if the discussion was all about "getting out victorious" and not figuring out the truth. I know what I did was wrong, but what do you expect from a discussion where instead of asking others why they think so, you push your opinions onto them? I expect nothing. And if anything, as examples give bands like late Manegarm, Nomans Land or Iuvenes (not the middle stuff), which are closer to pure viking metal than the bands you pointed out. I don't know what cross-genres are supposed to prove...
This is better, I doubt I am as narrow-minded as you might think, but now that I am in a better mood, (perhaps it was a bad time for me to have posted my thoughts after seeing the majority of the article I wrote deleted without any warning) I would be happy to discuss these finer points with you.
I have no doubt that Bathory's lyrics on Hammerheart are about Vikings and Norsemen, but "Beliefs and customs of the Norse raiders" is not well phrased to describe this. The theme seems more to me as epic tales of Norse Gods, warriors and their adventures, and great battles. As far as Einherjer is concerned, Hammerheart was not a black metal album, and was the definitive foundation for this developing of this theme in metal, therefore they couldn't have really pushed the "genre" away from black metal. If you would like to describe what specific elements were innovative and influenced later viking metal, I would be glad to hear your opinion, I do have the album.
What I was trying to demonstrate to you with my examples of bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum and Falkenbach was that there is simply not enough of a musical connection between all of these bands to consider Viking metal a musical genre. And that making a statement like viking metal is simplistic in nature, and generally has "simple guitar riffs" is simply erroneous. We can make note of similar influences and genres among the bands that have the theme of viking metal, such as folk and black metal, (stemming from Bathory) but we can not make general assumptions about the musical aspects in Viking Metal itself as it covers so many different genres. I was trying to portray in my original article that viking metal bands share similar musical aesthetic opinions, because of their similar ideals, artistic goals and interests in the creation of this kind of musical theme. I would not take it any further than this. --Eldvindr 00:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, regarding the recent (and major) "update" by the anonymous poster: First of all, I see no particular effort of yours to discuss the topic within this page, and take in the opinions of your peers regarding this subject, peers who apparently have a better grasp of the subject than you do. The added paragraph of "Aurora Borealis" is unnecessary, as Einherjer simply did not have a substantial enough effect on this genre to be singled out, not to mention you give absolutely no support of this claim if they did. What distinguishing elements did they have? And how is it substantial enough to deserve recognition in this sense in comparison to Hammerheart? As for the following paragraph, (unfounded as the former), it is not true that the term originated from the referring to Bathory's lyrics, among being misplaced and false, it is contradicting to previous statements. "Beliefs and customs of the norse raiders" were not what the lyrics were about if you have actually read them, and making the point that later "viking metal" started to incorporate other germanic pagan cultures besides the Vikings is terribly worded and questionable in relavence at that.
Also, for the last time, Viking Metal is a theme, not a musical style, therefore it has no musical characteristics. All the following text is therefore inappropriate and false. Does Ensiferum have "simple guitar riffs"?, is Moonsorrow's music "relatively simple"? Are songs like "Donar's Oak", and "Matkan Lopussa" about "life filled with battles and bloodshed", or are they not considered Viking Metal? Perhaps this just relates to the pagan ideals I referred to in my original article, which you have so thoughtfully deleted.
Furthermore, with your random additions and deletions of my previous work, it is no longer consistant with my original intent, and I do not want them there in the first place if they are to be in such a context. Consult with us here and we will work on revisions and additions through discussion, or don't bother at all. --Eldvindr 22:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
To the recent editor: I consider the quote by Quorthon to be an integral part of this article as it explains the development of Viking metal itself, considering he is in fact the mastermind of the "genre". Also, the fact that germanic folklore is "epic", is certainly not an opinion. That said, I agree with you on all other changes made for professionalism and erroneous POV. --Eldvindr 01:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Then please add an inline citation to the website containing the quote, as adding copyrighted material from other websites is disallowed on Wikipedia. If you dont know how to add citations, then put the link here and ill do it. Sorry for being bitchy, im having a bad night tonight, so my attitude is appauling by all measures. Leyasu 02:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, I wasn't familiar with these specific rules, as I am unable to find a direct sentence link to this quote from Quorthon, (somewhat rediculous to me that a direct quote is copyrighted), I will ask the webmaster at Bathory.se for permission. Could you elaborate on why my choice of the word "epic" is unaccaptable in its original context? If you do not recall, I ended with "The music is often highly romanticized and epic much as Norse folklore itself, and creates an atmosphere rich both in Germanic heroic and metal music tradition." Perhaps you read it differently than I had intended it, not in a sense of praise but rather a way to describe its elaborate and romantic nature. If this is unacceptable, perhaps we can come up with a compromise, as "exaggerated" hits my ears rather foully. --Eldvindr 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok fair enough. Your right, as when i read epic, it comes off as praise. Probally the different sides of the ocean and the way English and American read. What did you mean by Epic? As in, what were you trying to convey with the word epic? As exaggerated means 'Pumped Up', 'Made to seem more glorious', etc - an adjective that means this that reads less praise like would be more suitable. Leyasu 02:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Hah, yes that makes more sense. To me, (perhaps as an American) exaggerate essentially means to me to overextend expression unrealistically for purpose of effect, (such as: while in a long line, "there were a million of them lined up!") and is viewed as somewhat negative, therefore inappopriate for what I'm trying to convey. Perhaps this will help, a dictionary definition of "Epic": A dramatic composition that resembles an extended narrative poem celebrating heroic feats.
Also, on a related note, perhaps this has some relavence to the copyright situation: "In the case where an image is noted as owned and copyrighted by bathory.se, we would appriciate it if such an image is denoted as copyrighted by www.bathory.se when used in another medium/forum." Unfortunately, I have found nothing pertaining to the quotations on the page, (somewhat rediculous to me that a direct quote is copyrighted), but I have emailed the admin of the site, and I will await his response to the matter. (I was unable to find a direct link to the specific quote I was planning to use, only the page on which it appears.) http://www.bathory.se/08/08_writing_the_deeds_of_darkness_and_evil.htm --Eldvindr 03:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, I'm not entirely sure "figurehead" is even grammatically correct in its context, my previous use of "quintessence" was corrected as well after being revised from "Paragon". Quintessential essentially means, "Of, relating to, or having the nature of a quintessence; being the most typical", and "representing the perfect example of a class quality". Again for reference, it was originally, "The album remains a quintessential work of the genre, and is considered by many to be the one of the most important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history." --Eldvindr 03:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Saying 'the most' sounds POV. Saying Quintessential sounds POV to those who dont know the meaniing. Try something like what i have now, or alternatly '"The album remains a typical example of the genre, and is considered by many to be the an important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history."
- Also, i will show you how to do an inline citation such as this one [1]. Leyasu 03:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe ignorance should result in the revision of anything, especially since typical also comes across derogatory, it has overtones of comformity and blandness to me. Can we compromise with "The album remains a quintessential work of the genre, is is widely considered an important and influential release in Viking Metal's history."?
So if I use that inline citation you have provided at the end of the quote, it will be acceptable? --Eldvindr 03:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Remember, ignorance isnt always ignorance in the sense that things read differently across the oceans. Try using a different word instead of quintessential. Also, use the inline citation instead of the quote. Its typically how things work on Wikipedia (I learned this after removing a lot fo them from another article and getting scorned). Leyasu 03:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I will certainly keep that in mind, but that's not what we were talking about, you were referring to a general misinterpretation due to ignorance rather than a European interpretation. In any case I'll work on it tomorrow, as for the citation, how do you propose I work such a thing into this article? --Eldvindr 04:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Ill go fix the citation now, per example. The purpose of showing you, is so you know for your future edits and devolping of articles, so hope this helps. Leyasu 04:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright, that works well, I am doing a final edit to change the wording to something more to my original intent without erroneous POV. I have changed the sentence leading up to the citation to "Quorthon (The mastermind of Bathory)" as he is not a member of Bathory, but the only member, (despite several additions to the band that rarely lasted more than a single album) and the one behind the creative and musical aspects of the band. Secondly, I changed the conclusion statement regarding "Hammerheart" to "The album is regarded by many as an important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history." Which is an understatement, as the album was the foundation of the entire genre, but I can live with that. And lastly, I changed the wording at the end of the article back to epic, but to "epic in composition", which should clarify that I am referring to the construction in composition, as the Nordic sagas are in fact, "Epics". --Eldvindr 14:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Viking Metal is not Scandinavian Death Metal, as the redirection link claims.
Viking Metal is a sub-genre of Black Metal, and consists of mostly Black Metal bands such as Enslaved, Bathory, Mithotyn, Thyrfing, Kamfar, and so on.
Viking Metal is not a sub-genre period. If I wrote a black metal song about fairies and threw in some interesting techniques, would I have created the Fairy Metal subgenre?
Viking Metal is NOT a subgenre of Black Metal. It does in many cases share the musical characteristics of BM. Viking metal is however a term that describes the content of the music rather than the actual sound. There are a lot of Epic and Power Metal bands that could fall within this genre. Chelman 22:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyway..check this piece of text out and lemme know what you think: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457768 Chelman 22:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
That article is pretty good, I think it could be a worthy replacement article to the currently existing one (as you've said, it is fundamentally flawed), if it were expanded and written a bit more pricesely and professionally. --Eldvindr 19:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Empyrium?!
I would never consider Empyrium anything to do with viking metal. Firstly they aren't from a viking country (being German), and while they do have the slightly blackish growls in places, two out of their four albums were entirely acoustic based.
from what i've long heard, in ancient times at least, the germans were culturally and religiously similiar to the vikings. Gringo300 02:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It really doesn't matter what country the band comes from. It's the musical style that's important in determining what genre a band falls under. -D14BL0 04:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Scandinavians are Northern Germanic, and the "Vikings" did in fact have a very similar mythology and culture to other Germanic peoples of the time. If you think Germans can't do 'Viking Metal', listen to Falkenbach. --Eldvindr 19:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reference?
Uhm, this writing [2] says
"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Blood, Fire, Death. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods (which happens to be my personal favourite)."
Then we look at the current version here:
"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Hammerheart. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods."
But maybe that writing copied WP? So I check this one older update from 2005 (the everything2 one is from 2003) [3] and there it hadn't been added.
The "Interesting records" was copied too... Geez. Except moving down the Falkenbach quote it copied the whole damn thing. {sjöar}
(cur) (last) 14:47, 28 October 2005 Chelman m (typo)
(cur) (last) 14:46, 28 October 2005 Chelman (expanded on the hisotry and background)
Oh. Right. Heh. The everything2 writer. {sjöar}
- Check the user name under which the E2 writeup was posted....i think you may find a striking resemblance to my current username here. ;) Chelman 08:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Hello
You have forgotten to tell many viking metal band are racist /thx
- Please name some, how they are racist, and give links to articles that support your claim. Ley Shade 15:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
POV claims. Most Vking Metal Bands dont care about race, and if they do, its usually affirmation of one, and not disproval of another. Thats not being racist.
[edit] List of viking metal bands merge
Just to inform people I have merged the list of viking metal bands into this article. I began a discussion on it on the list of viking metal bands article 8 days ago, and have since had 2 agreements and no disagreements, so I have gone ahead. I have cleared up any double redirects I could find (apart from one within a deletion log, which stated it was not to be edited). I've left the list in this format, and feel it doesn't cause any problems. Prophaniti 20:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Classification of metal bands in general
I'm placing this discussion point on a number of different lists of metal bands of differing genres, because it's a general point addressing many of them as a whole. I watch a number of metal band lists, and see an awful lot of reverting back and forth, often due to debate about what genre a band is. Think of this point as a kind of appeal for sanity. If in doubt about a bands genre, check their wikipedia article. If they don't have one, either make one if you think they should, or take whatever sources (e.g. the bands homepage) you might normally use in such an article. But ultimately the point of this is the wikipedia articles are the first and usually last place of reference. If you feel the classification of a band if wrong, then take that to the article in question, do not start having revert wars on the lists, going back and forth. If you feel that a band is wrongly classified, then go and debate that on their page, where there are likely more people who have something to say on the matter, and where it will need changing anyway if at all. It's confusing if the lists give one genre and the main articles another. If you have a good case for the genre being changed, then you should be able to do so on the main article of the band, and then you'll have every right to change the list article too. If we just accept that the main articles for bands are the primary point of reference for their genre, then things become a lot simpler. Someone's removed a band from the gothic metal list and you think it's not right? Go check the article. If it clearly says they're gothic metal, even in part, at some point during their career, or have influences of that, then there you go. No one can argue with that, and if they wish to they will have to take it to the main article. The lists are there to refer people to bands based on genre, they are not the place to debate genre in the first place. There will always be basic vandalism of course, but if people take note of this point I'd hope it might lessen all this silly waring over genre. Thank you. Prophaniti 17:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Keep Amon Amarth out of this
Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death. Their Viking themed lyrics are not enough to add them here, for if that were than we should have Unleashed added here, who I'm sure most of you would not want added to this article.
Please stop adding them to the list.
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If Viking Metal "is a cross-genre reference usually used to describe the lyrical and thematic elements of bands rather than the music itself" how then can you say that Amon Amarth are not Viking Metal? All that they EVER sing about are Vikings and Norse mythology. Without a doubt they are one of the biggest Viking metal bands around today.
Also, if Amon Amarth don't count as Viking Metal, how can Forefather POSSIBLY count as Viking metal? They themselves state they are Anglo-Saxon metal (not Vikings). Yes, they had most of the same gods etc but the Anglo-Saxons were NOT vikings and Forefather's lyrics are not about Vikings.
"Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death." What does the metal sub-genre matter when talking about a label created to signify subject matter? If Amon Amarth were a Christian melo-death band you'd still classify them as a Christian metal band. Without a doubt Forefather are Folk Metal and Amon Amarth melodic death metal but Viking metal is supposed to be a way of grouping bands together that reflects only the lyrical and thematic content, regardless of the actual metal sub-genre.
I agree with the article as a whole but feel that this opinion of Amon Amarth is wrong and am interested to know your thoughts.
81.178.249.35 16:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Mike
[edit] Finntroll?
Even with the section on troll metal how can finntroll be coutned as a viking metal band whenthey don't even reference Norse mythology, Trolls are not specifically Norse
Personally, I wouldn't count any troll metal band as viking metal. That's why there's the distinction between troll and viking metal...subject matter.
