Talk:Vijayanagara Empire

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[edit] Psuedohistorian

Kannambadi claims himself to be an authority on Vijayanagar Empire. He has been selectively inserting material to show that Vijayanagar empire solely becomes the heritage of Kannadigas. One glaring example is the omission of Telugu literature. It is common knowledge that Vijayanagar period was a glorious chapter in Telugu literature. Ashtadiggajas (eight great poets) were the most celebrated group in Krishnadevaraya's court. Tenali Rama, known all over India, was a part of the group. The emperor himself was a great poet having written "Amuktamalyada" in Telugu. Many such glaring omissions make Kannambadi either an ignorant historian or a parocial psuedo-historian. As such, his arguments about the origin of the empire should taken with a pinch of salt.

[edit] theories on founding of empire

mr dinesh kannambadi u behave like a half baked historian, u want to prove telugu's r inferior to kannadigas by putting forward all the non sense stuff, dont forget the greatness of telugu people it were the telugu people who built the first empire in south india the great satavahanas, the whole of south india including karnataka was a part of their empire,even the chalukyas were feudatories to them who were sent to karnataka from kadapa dist in andhra pradesh,they adopted the ways of the land like all the telugu people do where ever they go.dont forget the greatness of telugu people they were the first people to colonise southeast asia and founders of mahayana buddism and spread it in whole of asia and brought prestige to our country, telugu was a spoken language then in satavahana empire it is evident by the presence of telugu words in gadhasaptasati by emperor hala. and also a inscription written in brahmi was found near vishakapatnam which had telugu words written on it, telugu people alone r mentioned in the puranas dating back to milliniums from the deccan plateau.

coming to vijayanagar empire, it shows how inferior you kannadigas feel in india , u want to make up some thing and proclaim your self as great people, you people lack glorious history and feel inferior to others .that's what making you to behave like half baked historian, the vijayanagar empire was founded by telugu people in telugu land and was assisted by telugu sage vidyaranya, dont take that if a person is from a part of state which is now in karnatake as kannadiga. it only adds insult to injury for you. dont you know that the brother of vidyaranya sayana was a minister in bukka court and he wrote commentary on vedas in telugu, this only prooves that telug was a favourite medium since the starting of the empire. and from the very founding day of the empire vijayanagar was dependant on telugu people and they appointed telugu governers to all of their provinces and the main provinces were penugonda and chandragiri both in andhra pradesh,unfortunately during the partition of states bellary dist which was telugu area since ages came under karnataka and u people claim what ever falls in karnataka as your own.grow up man and understand real history and dont behave like propagandist.only telugu people can built an empire so glorious in south india,just see asia , if today every indian feels proud to see indian culture in whole of southeast asia, it was because of brave telugu rulers who went on seas to conquer lands and spread our religion and culture,can any other state claim such greatness in india.












Sorry I forgot to add this earlier. The intention behind removing some mythical theories was not to confound the reader with innumerable theories about the founding of the empire. India as you know is a land of myths and stories. Very few stories have historical merit. I was under the impression that our responsibilitiy as history buffs is to provide the most plausible data instead of confusing the reader. Just as an example, there is a statement in the article that "telugu was the court language of vijayanagara empire". This is a flamboyant statement which most historians will not accept. Krishna deva Raya may have encouraged Telugu literature in 1500 AD onwards, but that does not imply it as "court language". If you study the history of the empire carefully, you will see that both Kannada and Telugu were the official languages. If Telugu literature was deemed popular to Krishnadevaraya, this was also the time for Kannada Haridasa movement and one can clearly see "purandara mantapa" in Hampi. The script used itself was the "vijayanagara script" which one may construe as the last common point in the evolution of modern kannada and telugu from the age old 'Hale Kannada". Even if a few records were found in Telugu in Hampi itself, it still does not imply that it alone was the offical language.

Dinesh Kannambadi.

I intend to add more material on the middle period of the emprier; the list of rulers needs cleanup and finishing which I hope to do in the next few days. There are also a number of links to sort out. Imc 18:22, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Template

The list of rulers in the template differs slightly from those in the article. I'd think that it is ok, as long as both are retained. The reasons are as follows: -

  • It is difficult to exactly pinpoint who ruled when - and both the template and the article come from credible sources.
  • Having both of them would help the reader understand that some episodes in history have not been documented well.
  • Most importantly, the template does not make any claims about the period of the rule. Hence, its retention would only imply a reasonably well accepted line of kings, but not about the exact period of their rule. Also, it has links to biographical information about the kings, and hence, is useful.
  • Also see Template talk:Vijayanagara empire. --Gurubrahma 14:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Writing the names

There are differences in spelling for some of the names. They should be standardised according to scholarly standards - as at National Library at Calcutta romanization. Imc 15:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karnataka Empire

Dear GuruBrahma, The concept "Karnataka Empire" is not a self imposed title. The name did not exist. The empire is better and well-known as Vijayanagar Empire. Propogating new names smacks of parochialism. It is commonly accepted by well known historians that the empire had its origin and its heart and soul in Kannada Conutry. Telugu people also feel the same way. It is a fact that Anegondi/Hampi/Vijayanagar are located in the area where Telugu was the predominant language till independence. The names of the villages, landmarks etc are all Telugu by nature.The popularity of Telugu in the empire came only in the later part of 15th century onwards.It was natural because Kings of Telugu descent patronized their own literature, arts and culture a little more than the others. This does not imply that the other parts of the empire did not contribute, it just suggests that most of thee princely lineage that ruled the kingdom were from Kannada country and as such, Old Kannada was still the medium of written standard thru out Andhra at that time. The spritual impetus for the empire also came from the Sringeri Peetha as well as the Kannada Haridasa movement. Robert Sewell, a foreigner, after crtical analysis of various theories concluded that Harihara and Bukka were Golla/Yadava/Kuruba treasury officers in the court of Warangal.I understand that Krishnadevaraya gave lot of importance to Telugu Literature which is obvious where ever I read about the King.It was but natural that he conducted all day-to-day matters in Telugu which he spoke. It is also possible that Telugu population may have had a relative majority in the Kingdom by the 16th century, but let us not forget that Kannada language itself was wide spread thru out Kurnool, Cudduppa, Chitoor etc. during that time.Even today Kannadaspeaking population exists in these bordering districts.That is natural but does not mean much. I can point you to a seperate section regarding "Kannada Inscriptions from Andhra" as proof. Infact there are supposed to be more Kannada inscriptions in Tirupathi temple then Telugu inscriptions. No suppositions/presumptions. Its unfortunate that todays politics and regionalsim prevents us from seeing history from a "historical perspective". Just to drive the point further, recently, outgoing Chief Minister Dharam Singm even made an official suggestion that Kannada and Telugu people must go back to "VijayaLipi", the common Old Kannada script used during the Empire. This idea ofcourse was shot down.No doubt it is a good idea. Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Vijayanagar territories

I am not sure how to create a map showing Vijaynagar empire and its extent. Can someone please do this.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Done! - Parthi (Venu62) 23:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map of vijayanagar empire

Please include orissa in the map. Krishnadevaraya defeated and held the gajapathi's as feudatories for some time. So also records indicate that the king of SriLanka may have paid tribute to him as well as Devaraya II (1450AD). Thanks for your efforts.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Theory of origin

Dear casual deleter of valid material, please do take note that people take lot of trouble to put in valid research material. Dont just delete whole paragraphs without bothering to log in which would enable us discuss your issues and concerns. If you have useful material to prove any of those theories wrong bring it forward. Dont just blanket remove material because it suits your convinience. This is not civil. If you can prove that the empire originated in Telugu country for instance, put it forward. let us discuss this. Dinesh Kannambadi.


[edit] Reply

The portion that was deleted had nothing to do with research. It was full of conjenctures and presumptions. Do not hastily conclude that someone whom you do not know as 'casual reader' and the material you place in Wikpedia as 'valid'.

Reply--> These are not my assumptions. These are notes of well known historians. It is obvious you are supporting a telugu origin of the empire which has not found too many takers. Let usw not forget that for a long time untill i came on board to working on this page, the claim was that "Telugu was the official language of the empire". This info was taken from AP blog sites.

Reply

It was you who followed a parochial approach. You tend to ignore a school of historians, includig Sewell, that traceed the genesis of Harihara & Bukka as hailing from Warangal. You also made insinuations against me which is unfortunate. I would say you are a half-baked historian. Would you agree?

--->Uncivic. Please refrain from personal attacks. You are free to quote Sewell where ever you wish--Dinesh

Calling me a casual reader and vandal is personal attack. Asking a question to elicit your reply is not uncivil.

1.Inscriptions on coins cannot establish the origin. E.g., Madurai Nayaks and Tanjore Nayaks (Telugu people) minted coins with predominantly Tamil language. Does it make them Tamil guys? It is also possible that more Kannada coins were found than Telugu coins.

Reply--> What you have just said shows you know very little about history. Inscriptions are proof of language of administration. Literature is proof of scholarly activity and royal patronage. When a certian language dominates in inscriptions in the very heart of a Kingdom, it does not take a rocket scientist to deduce which language was used for administrative purposes. Hindi is the most commonly used language of administration in Delhi. Why?. because it is the national language. Please speak to any historian and he will tell you. When a language is used in coinage, it shows the language commands high administrative authority and in matters of commerce too. Even today, though India has 22 official languages, not all languages are not printed on the currency because many of these languages dont have the historical/population weightage.

Reply

Absolutely not. In a multi-lingual country such as Vijayanagar, coins were minted that depicted Telugu, Kannada, Tamil etc. It was the narrow-minded approach of Muslims that changed the trend which modern India follows. Recolect that even British coins depicted English, Urdu, Bengali, Devanagari and Telugu (not Kannada!!. Of course, this is in lighter vein).

--->what the british did or may have done has nothing to do with vijayanagar coinage. The Mysore Maharaja's also minted coins at the behest of the British with Kannada legends. Coinage with Kannada legends go back to 5th century. Read the article on "Banavasi coins" -in Kannada page. Kannada coinage is common from the time of Chalukyas of Karnataka --dinesh

You conveniently brush away my logic and bring in irrelevant things. If Kannada coins are from 5th century AD or BC how does it bolster your argument here?

2. Yes. Vidyaranya was a Kannadiga. Harihara and Bukka came across him and became his disciples. Does it make them Kannadigas?

Reply-->Not much is known about Harihara and Bukka except that they were Kurubas. Kurubas are mostly from Karnataka. Also not many inscriptions are available from the "sangama" dynasty. So historians have to make educated conclusions from whatever inscriptions and epigraphs they have on hand. Patron saints are the real King makers, just as Chanukya made Chandragupta Maurya a great king.

Reply

I did not find any logic here. Kuruba/Golla are synonymous.

3.Surnames cannot establish genesis. In fact, the names you consider Kannada are also in common Telugu usage. E.g., Anegondi is a pure Telugu word/name.

Reply--> Anegundi in Kannada means "elephant pit". In Telugu, elephant is "Aenugu". My wife is telugu, so I know. Many inputs that went into Telugu language came from Kannada. Kannada was made the official language of the deccan during the rule of the Chalukyas. Telugu may have actually been a minority at this time and was written in "old Kannada" script.

Reply

You misspelt the word. Check historical records. The correct name is Anegondi, which means "Identifiable gully". Of course, Telugus were/are in minority beyond Raichur & Bellary.

--->Its called Anegundi or Anegondi. Either way is called so because thats where the elephants were kept for your kind info--dinesh

Not necessarily.

The scripts had common origin. Historians nammed it "Old Kannada". How does it help you?

--->Many words in Telugu were derived from Kannada words. That's the point i am making. So similarities are but common. Dont misconstrue that its a telugu word just beacuse you can relate to it. As an example, Some time back some over enthusiatic telugus tried to claim "Bengaluru" is a telugu name untill I brought proof from scholarly work done by Rao Bahadur Narasimachar of Epigraphica carnatica that the earliest inscription 890CE. naming Bangaluru was a old Kannada inscription from Ganga dynasty. The arguement has since wittled away.--Dinesh

This is again irrelevant. Citing some old episode you are now trying to paint the whole community as parochial. It really gives away your state of mind. All Dravidian languages are derived from Proto-Dravidian. There are thousands of words common to many Dravidian languages. It is to simplistic to say that Telugu words emanated from Kannada words. It again smacks of parochialism but not scholarship.

4. By your line of argument, Krishnadevaraya and other Vijayanagar kings who were fervent devotees of Lord Venkateswara MUST have been Telugu (or Tamil?) guys. Reply--> This shows how little you know about your own state. More Kannada language inscriptions have been found in Tirupathi than Telugu. Kannada language inscriptions are extremely common in Kurnool, Chitoor and Cudappa districts upt to 1740AD. Please refer to "Indian inscriptions from ASI". If you doubt about Krishnadevaraya's origin, speak to your chief minister YS Reddy. he will tell you.YS Reddy Also, Krishnadevaraya came from Dakshina Kannada region and hence is called "Tuluva" king. Most Telugus dont even know his full name which is "Nalmadi Krishnadevaraya". Even today, this region is called "Tulu Nadu". The Saluvas came from Gerosoppa area of Uttara Kannada district.

Reply"""

Perverted logic. Numbers wise, Tamil inscritions were more. How does this help your argument? Why should I speak to some CM? Did you learn your history from Dharam Singh or Devegouda? Krishnadevaraya's surname was "Sammeta" (means Hammer) which is still prevalent in Telugu Balija caste. Please check up.

--->I was refering to the article about YS Reddy's speach in Bangalore - Dinesh

I saw the news report. YS is not a historical authority. Many people are carried away by non-historical propaganda stuff (Goebbelian?). I said Sammeta is a surname prevalent in Telugu Balijas (considerable number are present in Karnataka and Bangalore itself). Please check up.

More over the surname Sameeta seems more like a title to acknowledge his power.


5. Virupaksha, Chennakesava etc., were in the region where Vijayanagar kings ruled. It is but natural they worshipped them as family gods because of their proximity to Hampi. E.g., Tirumala Nayak and other Madurai kings were responsible for construction of present day temples in Madurai, Srirangam etc. Does it make them Tamil kings?

Reply-->You are where you belong. Azim Premji was born in Gujarat. he made his fortune in Bangalore. Does that make him a Gujarathi or a Bangalorean? Sir. M Visweshvariah was born in Karnataka. His ancestors came from Kurnool in the 16th century. He went on to become one of the great people from Karnataka. Does that make him a Karnatakan or Andhraite?. The answer again is simple. Karnatakan!!.

Reply

Yes. Now it really applies to you. We are talking about genesis not adoptions. Harihara & Bukka were Telugus. They settled/established in a predominantly Kannada-speaking region. Ancestors of Mokshagundam were Telugus. Similarly, Madurai and Tanjore Nayaks were of Telugu origin who ended up there via Vijayanagar.

--->Why should genesis matter. Maybe the ancestors of Sir MV's ancestors came from Afghanisthan. Does that make him an Afghani? The early Vengi Chalukyas came from Karnataka. Kubja Vishnuvardhana was younger brother of Pulakeshi II. They encouraged Kannada for nearly two centuries in AP before Telugu took over. Do you hear any Kannadigas screaming for justice there. The Rashtrakutas who ruled one of India's largest empires came from central India, inherited the Kannada culture and encouraged Kannada literature and ruled from Malkheda (Manyaketha) in Gulbarga district. Dont you think thay are Kannadigas. The Sena's of Bengal who built a formidable empire in the 10-12 centuries came from Karnataka. But they encouraged Bengali language. Are we complaining?. The Rathore's of Rajasthan find their origin in the Rashtrakutas of Karnataka. Are we complaining?. The Solanki's of Gujarat are descendents of the Chalukyas of Karnataka. Are we complaining? Going by your arguements the 4 million telugus living in Karnataka by migration/ancestory are all Andhraite's and there goes Indian democracy and statehood. Maybe we will end up building walls around each state to protect ourselves from your logic. -- Dinesh

Keep rhetoric aside. Genesis does matter. Because of their Telugu origin, the kings patronized poets, scholars, sculptors, musicians, military commanders etc from Telugu region. Why Vijayanagar kings selected Telugu nayaks as Palegars all over south? The legacy continued till British came along. The whole cultural milieu of South got Telugized. We are discussing the basic ancestry of Vijayanagar kings not someone whose ancestors got adopted to a place down the millennia. I shall not engage in a repartee on nationalism because that is the point at all here.


The Issue is not about Nayakas. The Issue is about Vijayanagar empire. Please stop harping about Nayakas. The Pallavas were origianlly Telugu too, but built a great Empire from Kanchi and encouraged Tamil. Does the world see them a Telugu or Tamil?. The answer is Tamil. Sorry to say this but you Telugus constantly seem to search out ancestory and make claims from there. Is it because Telugus have become more successfull after leaving AP?.

Reply

You made wide remarks smacking prejudice. It betrays your inner emotions, not maturity. Restrain yourself.

>I have had these arguements on numerous occassions with Telugus. We kannadigas

cant understand this logic. Thats all!! - Dinesh

Do not bring in other people, Telugu or otherwise, here. It is fine if you can not understand my logic. We all have our intellectual limitations.

Nayaks example was given as a comparison.

6.It was natural that Vijayanagar kings followed Hoyasala pattern because the empire was built on the previous kingdom's foundation.

Reply--> You are absolutely right. They followed the Hoysala pattern because they were of the same territory. The very reason muslim rulers for example, brought into India, Persian styles of architecture was because their ancestors were from there. They maintained that alligiance in architecture and trade and culture to the land of their ancestors.

Reply

I am glad you agreed. We were talking about established political administration but not architecture. Poor logic!!

7.In wars, language and race and religion does not matter, especially in the troubled times. E.g., Chokkanatha Nayak of Madurai wiped out Tanjore Nayak kingdom simply because Tanjore Nayak refused to give his daughter in marriage to Madurai Nayak. Both were Telugu kings but that did not matter in war. The sole aim of Vijayanagar kings was to protect Hindu Dharma by uniting all people of Deccan.

Reply--> The point the historians are trying to make is that there was generally more unrest in the eastern part of the empire, not in the western part.

8.Bukkaraya closely worked with Musunuri Kaapaya Nayaka of Warangal to keep muslims at bay. When Kaapaya wanted to put down the rebellion of Recherla Velamas, Bukkaraya helped him. One can argue (by your logic) that both of them were Telugu. When Kaapaya was killed all the Nayaks migrated to Vijayanagar to strengthen Bukkaraya and realize their dream of Hindu unity. Please read Robert Sewell about Musunuri Nayakas from whom Harihara and Bukka got inspiration to unite Hindus. Reason: They all worked together for King Prataparudra of Kakatiya empire.

Reply--> please go ahead and put these arguements on the wiki page instead of taking out info put by others. You are welcome to put your findings out there. People need to see this too.

Reply

Unsolicited advice.

--->If you feel insecure about your evidence, I cant help it - dinesh

Absolutely not. I am totally confident of my line of argument. I still contend that the matter is controversial. It was you who concluded with baseless and perverted reasoning. Even now, I demand solid evidence that Vijayanagar kings were of Kannada origin. Do not cast aspersions on British. For them, Telugu and Kannada people were equal.

9.It is agreed by all historians that Vijayanagar dynasties were of heterogenous origin and number of marital alliances were made to unite and continue the struggle against muslims. Lots of alliances were made with Reddy kings, Musunuri chiefs, Velama commanders etc. No one denies that Kannadiga involvement was substantial. In fact, those were the times when the linguistic lines were faint. Let us accept it.

Reply--> very few Kingdoms have survived for long let alone prospered without commanding and absolute spiritual support. What Vashistha was to Ayodhya, Vidyaranya was to Vijayanagar. So were the Kannada Hari dasas. Also let us not forget where Telugu script came from. It came from 'Old Kannada. Yes you a right. Lingusitics did become blurred at that time. Otherwise Krishnadevaraya would not have had eigth telugu poets in his court.

Reply

I find it difficult to beleive a Kannada/Tamil/Tulu guy writing a poetic masterpiece (Amuktamalyada) in a language which his mother did not speak.

--->Poor Knowledge. Three out of the seven Jnanpith award winners in Kannada language are of non Kannada origin. Girish Karnad calls Konkani his mother tongue. D.R. Bendre called Marathi and Masti Venkatesh Iyengar called Tamil their mother tongue. Please be well versed about our culture before making assumptions. Its just that there is a major difference in our cultures that you have a hard time understanding that a person does not have be a native speaker in a language to write in that language. Telugu culture is an exclusive culture. Its hard for them to accept outsiders as their own. Kannada culture is an inclusive culture. nearly 25% of our state is populated by outsiders who have migrated in the last 100 years or so and made significant contribution to Kannada culture and litearute which stands as a giant -- Dinesh

It is OK for you to praise your people but not good to run down others, which again shows your impatience and immaturity.

10. Please temper your enthusiasm to paint Vijayanagar empire as Karnataka empire and the kings as Kannada people. That is the reason, a sentence was added that unless substantial evidence is discovered the matter remains controversial. Please produce that evidence through your 'research'. I am sure it is fair to say so!!!

Reply--> I dont need to paint anything. The world comes to see Hampi in Karnataka, not AP. I did not prevent any teluguite from adding info to prove me wrong or simply add to the theories. Any additional information you can add is all too welcome. I also did not delete your input if you noticed. Just dont delete mine. I was the person who made out the box indicating Kannada and Telugu were the official languages. I was the one who brought in the coinage info too and info about Kingdom of Kampili which clearly keeps clear of our current debate, but i did not delete the section on telugu literature on page "'Krishnadevaraya". I think thats fair too!!!. Please go ahead and add a paragraph on Telugu literature prior to Krishnadevaraya's period if you can and make the page more complete.I cant help it if you dont like that Kannada side of the arguement. Also please provide your name and login in the future or your edits seem like vandalism.

Reply

Again, narrow-minded parochialism. Your logic is based on boundaries we have drawn a few years back. You pretty well know that Bellary, Raichur, Hampi, Hospet etc are predominantly Telugu areas just as Adoni in Kurnool didtrict is of Kannada. Please develop some mature thinking.

--->Most of these people are simple innocent cultured people who have taken up to Kannada well though of Telugu origin. I dont see any Telugues fighting from separation from Karnataka which clearly shows they are recent immigrants. If they were there before Partition, why would Bellary, Raichur etc be in Karnataka. It would have be included in AP. Or are you starting a linguistic war that these places should have gone to AP but the central govt was unfair - Dinesh

You again say irrelevant things. Boundaries of the states, population of the people etc are not the issues. I never raised such matters. Everyone accepted the new states (At least in AP. Only you guys quarrel with Maharashtra and TN. Talk about Kannadiga broad-mindedness!!!). I regret to get into this immaterial stuff.


I deleted only portins not supported by solid historical evidence. You provide that first. As long as you cannot do so, the matter is a bone of contention

>I will put back my stuff and claim vandalism and call for arbitration.

You are free to do what you like.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Debate over Origin

I have created two wiki pages for the two of the historians who claim a Kannada origin of the Vijayanagar empire. fell free to read this. The historians are Dr. P.B. Desai and Dr. B.A. Saletore. My evidence is as good as yours from Robert Sewell unless you have a prejudice that a foreigner's work has more repute than that of Indian historians. If you want me to procure these books by these two scholars, you will have to do the same with your proof. You dont have the knowledge or authority to decide which scholar has more weightage, and nor do I. So lets leave it here. The fact that you keep your identity a secret proves you are nothing but a cheap vandal.

And dont you dare vandalise my work again!!!

Dinesh Kannambadi

Do not behave like a street Goonda mouthing such threats. This reveals your immaturity. What kind of historian you are??

[edit] More on Origin

through out your replies in the discussion column to me you have alleged that I am immature, a half baked historian, impatient and a pervert and so on. To me it seems you are fresh school grad who is coming out firing on all cylinders without knowing what you are talking about. The very fact you conceal your identity proves who the pervert is. In one of your replies you say "The whole cultural milieu of South got Telugized" Who is the pervert now? I suggest you do some reading about history. You keep claiming that i am trying to paint a Kannada picture of the Empire. But you are trying to paint a Telugu picture of the whole of South India. I can also question Robert Sewells research and write vandal notes in the paragraph created for his work. I can also ask for specfic proof of telugu historians claims of telugu origin. But I have not done so because i can respect the work done by others and assume that whoever puts such material is knowledgeable enough not fabricate history. Through out your replies you show a constant contradiction dripping with frustration. I suggest you keep away from WIKI or disclose youself and log in.

Reply: This very stuff reveals your frustration not mine. It is history that Telugu dominated the South Indian culture basically through Vijayanagar empire and later via Tanjore and Madurai kingdoms. Can you honestly deny this? Is it perversion to say this? I never wanted to paint South Indian history as Telugu history. Cultural ethos is different. I have tremendous respect for Tamil culture and Kannada history. I only question your enthusiasm to brand Vijayanagar empire as Karnataka/Kannada empire. Instead of citing historical records, you bank upon conjenctures and presumptions, as I originally said. You are welcome to question Sewell. On what basis you can you deny a Sanskrit treatise found in deep Kannada country which mentioned Harihara and Bukka as treasury officers at Warangal. No Telugu person said this. A western historian who researched on Mysore said this.

Reply--> Ths first thing you need to learn about history is that foreign historians can be as biased and misinformed as local ones. Remember Max Muller?. Also it seems like there could be many a slip between the cup and the lip in Mr Sewells claims. Too many people involved in transmitting the info on Hakka bukka. But proof is proff and thats fine.

If it is not convenient to you, you call them mistakes. On the other hand wild guesses of native guys without solid proof become historical facts.

Secondly it baffels me you claim "Telugu dominated south Indian culture" thru vijayanagar empire. Where did you get this info? Seems like a brain wash.

Now you seem to be a novice or a beginner

I can accept that Telugu was poplarised during the empire but when this is placed next to two of Indias most ancient languages Tamil, Kannada, (speaking by way of literature), it hardly makes a dent. Telugu litereture found its golden age some 500 years after Kannada and 1000 years after Tamil. Dont you think these languages would have occupied a comfortable and dominant position in south Indian culture by virtue of this.

This is self-assumed importance and false pride. You got to brush up with your history of whole South India not Karnataka alone.

How many people outside AP know of the Eight Telugu poets in Krishnadevarays court. Compare this against the contribiutions of Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa and Vyasatirtha etc who contributed during the same period.

Tenali Rama is known all over India rather than any Kannada poet of Vijayanagar times. Tyagaraja is internationally known whereas people outside South India hardly know Purandaradasa, except of couse musicians.

Have you seen Purandara Mantapa in Hampi. He had a special place where he sang from. There is no comparison. There names have reached most corners of the world by way of carnatic music. Even the great Tyagaraja of AP found inspiration from the Purandaradasa. Telugu and its literature is no doubt a great language but a young compared to Kannada and Tamil. Dont let the current Telugu population and exodus to America fool you.

You assume things too fast. I am very much an Indian living in India.

In one of your remarks you said "historians called it old Kannada". Let me enlighten you. The earliest Kannada language inscription in this script is from 425-450 CE (Halmidi inscription). During this time and for the next 300 years, Telugu was still written in Brahmi or Prakrit scripts. Only during the time of Chalukyas, Telugu was started to be written in "old Kannada" script. Meaning Telugu country inherited it from us. So historians did not called it "old Kannada" to make us happy.

This is bunkum. Learn some comparative linguistics. Read Caldwell, Brown and others.

Also I was not trying to brand the empire as a Kannada empire, merely putting forward veritable proof of Kannada contribution. You were free to do so with Telugu, instead you choose to delete all my work, call me a half baked histroian without understanding the issue. Nobody stopped you from putting research info on Telugu origin, or coinage or literature, or lineage. cheers. Lets stop this here and move on. Meanwhile i will try to find more evidence from other sources.

Go ahead but place some stuff with hard proof not guesses.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Rational historian

[edit] Unsolicited advice

You better edit your stuff of grammar, syntax, spellings etc. You claim to be a mature 'historian'!!!

Question Dear Kannada Historian, Do you know the origin of Kannada adikavi Pampa?

Dear cynic, yes I do. He came from What is today andhra (he was patronized by King Arikesari of Vemulavada, a Rashtrakuta feudatory), but dont jump to conclusions yet because Kannada was widely spoken in Andhra desa during the 9th century. This period is also called the "time of Imperial Kannada" by some historians. In fact so did Ranna i believe.

Dear Psuedo, Hahaha!!. Now do not tell me Kannada was spoken in North India too. Vemulavada was far too distant from Kannada region. Andhra and Andhras existed since the time of Satavahanas. Historians know very well that Pampa and his brother were Telugu guys. Pampa's brother composed Telugu Jain works

[edit] Capitals

Penukonda, chandragiri, Arcot should be added to the capital list since the article deals with all four dynasties --Vyzasatya 20:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikipage on Keladi Nayaka available

I have created a page for Keladi Nayakas, a feudatory of the Vijayanagar empire and added some nice pictures taken by me recently. Enjoy

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] =Possible solutions for the Origin Debate

Hello Dinesh and the Telugu gentleman who replied above,

I noticed a similar debate on the Chandragupta Maurya page, and there were many arguments about whether he was a man of Magadha or Gandhara or even of Scythia. Since everyone would obviously like to claim great figures for their respective regions, the additions ended up dominating the entire Chandragupta page and reduced the overall quality of the article. As there appears to be as much debate about the origins of the Vijayanagar Kings as the Mauryas, perhaps a similar compromise solution can be implemented. We can have a fair size section, but not oversize section, discussing origin theories followed by other topics and then have a separate page for the full debate on origin. The reason for this suggestion is that the focus of this article appears to be the ancestry of the Vijayanagar Kings and not the achievements of their empire, in spite of the title Vijayanagar Empire. Regardless of whether they were Telugu or Kannada, their contributions are celebrated throughout India. Just a thought. Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Devanampriya

Reply: Thats not a bad idea. I will create a seperate page called "origin of vijayanagar empire" and reduce the amount of stuff there right now. You are right, we need to concentrate on the empires achievemens such as literature, architecture, governance etc. I got into a heated arguement with a "nameless" user who refused to log in and got carried away. But these research notes are invaluable to the user interested in the origins of the empire and hence need to be preserved in a seperate page which will be hyperlinked to.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Whether anonymous or otherwise, what matters is open-minded, non-parochial and logical approach, which Mr Kannambadi is totally devoid of. That makes one suspect him even if he says something correct.

Reply: Those who dont log in are generally dont want to be held accountable for what they put in. This also implies that what they put in is not of high validity. It goes both ways. Those who are willing to log in and stake their reputation on what they put in are generally considered more serious in their study and more reliable in material and sources. As far as Pampa is concerned, even if as you claim, he was Telugu of origin, it shows how far Kannada had become popular in Andhra desa in 9th century that someone so far off from Kannada heartland was willing to write in Kannada. Regarding Kannada being spoken in North India, you are not too far from the reality considering the number of Kannada inscriptions discovered in Gujarat and Madhyapradesh (and recently in Chattisghad). Read up real history, not blog sites. Keep tabs on historical developments. Also remember, the eastern Chalukyas were of Kannada origin intially encouraging Kannada in Andhra desa.

One more important piece of History you need to be aware of is that the word "Andhra" and "Telugu" are not automatically connected during the Satavahana rule. Today's Andhras speak Telugu. Does'nt mean the all Andhras of the past spoke Telugu also. Prakrit was the natural language of inscriptions and numismatics during Satavahana rule. A few Telugu words in King Halas poems does not mean much more than giving an idea of development of Telugu. I guess I should not be getting into futile arguements with people with no knowledge of history. Sorry for this mistake again. My apologies.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Reply

Pampa did not write 'Vikramarjuna Vijayam' sitting in Vemulavada. He migrated to Kannada country as a Jain ascetic and composed his works there. Please learn it.

Telugu in its primitive form (getting separated from Proto-Dravidian) was very much prevalent in ancient Andhra kingdom. Telugu words and Telugu poems, although few, were discovered by historians on Satavahana coins and inscriptions. Of course, Prakrit was more widely prevalent. That does not change my contention.

Now, it is very clear that you are very eager to establish Kannada all over India by denying others what was due to them. Down with psuedo-history!!

[edit] Telugu Literature and Pseudo Historian??

I have added whatever info i could find on important telugu works. feel free to add to this .Its interesting to note someone called me a pseudo historian for writing about Kannada and Sanskrit literature only and not about Telugu literature. Instead of complaining about me being Pseudo historian, why does'nt the acuser find the time to do the same. I dont have infinite time to work on this (though I enjoy it) and wikipedia is meant to be a joint effort, not a Dinesh Kannambadi effort only. I add useful material as and when i come across it which means, as and when I complete reading history books. I am not obligated to touch upon all topics to please everyone. Also, there seems to be a fairly conspicuous amount on the eight great Telugu poets in the Krishnadevaraya page anyway. Did I complain that those wiki users who put in that info did not touch upon Kannada literature.

Grow Up!!!

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] VandalismDineshkannambadi 18:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from vandalism. Such acts of uneducated vandalism does nothing more than show lack of knowledge and restraint

Dinesh Kannambadi—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dineshkannambadi (talk • contribs).

mr dinesh kannambadi u behave like a half baked historian, u want to prove telugu's r inferior to kannadigas by putting forward all the non sense stuff, dont forget the greatness of telugu people it were the telugu people who built the first empire in south india the great satavahanas, the whole of south india including karnataka was a part of their empire,even the chalukyas were feudatories to them who were sent to karnataka from kadapa dist in andhra pradesh,they adopted the ways of the land like all the telugu people do where ever they go.dont forget the greatness of telugu people they were the first people to colonise southeast asia and founders of mahayana buddism and spread it in whole of asia and brought prestige to our country, telugu was a spoken language then in satavahana empire it is evident by the presence of telugu words in gadhasaptasati by emperor hala. and also a inscription written in brahmi was found near vishakapatnam which had telugu words written on it, telugu people alone r mentioned in the puranas dating back to milliniums from the deccan plateau.

coming to vijayanagar empire, it shows how inferior you kannadigas feel in india , u want to make up some thing and proclaim your self as great people, you people lack glorious history and feel inferior to others .that's what making you to behave like half baked historian, the vijayanagar empire was founded by telugu people in telugu land and was assisted by telugu sage vidyaranya, dont take that if a person is from a part of state which is now in karnatake as kannadiga. it only adds insult to injury for you. dont you know that the brother of vidyaranya sayana was a minister in bukka court and he wrote commentary on vedas in telugu, this only prooves that telug was a favourite medium since the starting of the empire. and from the very founding day of the empire vijayanagar was dependant on telugu people and they appointed telugu governers to all of their provinces and the main provinces were penugonda and chandragiri both in andhra pradesh,unfortunately during the partition of states bellary dist which was telugu area since ages came under karnataka and u people claim what ever falls in karnataka as your own.grow up man and understand real history and dont behave like propagandist.only telugu people can built an empire so glorious in south india,just see asia , if today every indian feels proud to see indian culture in whole of southeast asia, it was because of brave telugu rulers who went on seas to conquer lands and spread our religion and culture,can any other state claim such greatness in india. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.226.73.176 (talk • contribs). If you go by evidence available & other historical places andhra hardly boasts of any historical places unlike karnataka & tamilnadu (You seem to be a simpleton. Most of the grand temples in Telugu region were destroyed during Muslim conquests as it happened all over North. Do you know that Telugu Nayaks of Madura and Thanjavur were responsible for protecting, expanding and renovating great temples of Tamil land?). Though there are high number of telugu speakers in the country but as language & historical perspective..it is either rooted in kannada or tamil (such simple ignorance!!). It's a fact accept it orelse give me some evidence or proof. Another fact is Telugu flourished only during krishnadevaraya period (which shows it's a relatively new language compared to kannada) who patronised telugu though he was a kannadiga by large heartedness (another instance of ignorance). Instead of respecting kannada & krishnadevaraya foolish telugu ppl coming here & commenting bull shit (Every Telugu respects both. You do not seem to do so).

Come with evidence/proof.

here is some gyan http://www.aponline.gov.in/Quick%20links/HIST-CULT/languages.html http://www.teluguworld.org/Telugu/telugu_lang_history_2.html many such telugu links exist where comparision made with kannada & it is accepted as a fact that telugu owes to kannada.

Telugu's admit that kannada is a elder sister. Better accept the fact.It's well known fact.

[edit] Vijayanagar AdministrationDineshkannambadi 18:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Over the coming week or so, I shall be consolidating aspects of Vijayanagar empire that are lacking at the present time. I shall be making these edits based on inputs from my reference sources, Prof. K.A.N. Sastri and Dr. S.U. Kamath, both of whose books I have used as source material in the main page. These issues will be dealt with balance covering the whole empire and not any particualar region. If anyone has useful info to share from reputed authors, please feel free, so long as you quote the source in the reference section. Please be aware that information from blog sites are not allowed. Please let us stay away from silly arguements about Kannada and Telugu and concentrate on the real issue (that is exactly what I did not do so far), which is bringing the glory of the empire to the public. Any sane person who reads this page on the empire will realise that it was a SUM contribution of the whole of South India (Wisdom dawned at last?)and that is what we need to portray to the world. Debates about the origin of Hakka abd Bukka have been going on for a 100 years and will continue for 100 more. There is lot of work to be done (to establish Kannada supremacy all over India)here in the mean time to bring out the full picture about other equally if not more important issues.

a)Overall administration of Empire over entire south India,
b)social life,
c)religion and influence of Haridasas,
d)land and people
e)agriculture and irrigation
f)place of woman in society, none of which have been elaborated.
g) create a main page "Elements of Vijayanagar architecture" (elements means details on why's and how's with pictures taken by me on my first trip to Hampi). We already have temple photos in the pages for Vijayanagara and Hampi, so I wont repeat that info.
h)consolidate all matter on literature into one main article called Literature of Vijayanagar empire".
 i)detailed account of Battle of Tallikota

Over the coming years I plan to visit Vijayanagar Temples at Hampi again (2nd time) and so also Kanakagiri, Coastal Karnataka, Kolar, Nandi hills, Temples in Andhra like Lepakshi etc learn more about their architectural styles. A seperate main page for "elements of Vijayanagar architecture" will be discussed with appropriate pictures (not just photos of temples, but photos of their various niche techniques in pillar design, supports, brackets etc). I am going to create a basic page on this in the next 2 weeks with info from source material from well known authors. My next trip should help fully consolidate the material in this page. Please help me bring out the best for this page. Also my earnest request to my friends is please log in before posting comments as it is extremely poor wikipedia'ness to make edits or pass comments without logging in.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Tipu Sultan Greater Than Vijayanegara

Tipu Sultan can beat Cannad Vijayanegar anytime. Tipu Sultan was th greatest ruler of all-time. He kicked away the Mysore kings and became a GREAT SULTAN !!!!! He brought the great language URDU to foolish Karnatak people speaking old bland Cannad language. The beauty of Urdu language floored many Cannad people and they adopted Urdu and became Muslim. Tipu didnt force anyone to become Muslim. He was a great king. He did the great work of making "Kafiristan Karnatak" into "Dar-Ul-Karnatistan". Thank him for the riches he brought to Caranatak. Otherewise what were these Cannada people doing. Poor people were slaves to the Marathas and Nizam. After Tipu, the Mysore Rajas again became slaves, this time of European British. But still Carnatic government dont make justice. Urdu should be made Carnatik state's official language. Fools, stop badmouthing the gr8 Tipu Sultan.

ALL HAIL THE GREAT TIPU SULTAN !!!! DOWN WITH THE CANNADDA FANATICS !!!!

Tipu Beat Cannad

[edit] Psuedo

Dear Psuedo, Now, raise to the ocassion. Keep aside your software job in US, put some bucks in your pocket, go back to Hampi and recover "your Karnataka glory.

[edit] Misleading edits being made by unsigned vandalDineshkannambadi 15:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There have been many negative edits made to my messages by an obvious vandal on this Talk page (Of course, I vandalize the history of a whole nation). Please ignore this kind of insinuation and I request one and all not to respond to this. This is only an attempt to divert attention from the real Issue which is to bring out some of the glorious aspects of the empire. I hope this kind of attitude will stop and people are welcome to make positive contributions with verifyable reference sources.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] The Dynasties and their datesDineshkannambadi 15:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I see there are two versions of dates assigned to the kings of the various dynasties. One set is from historian Robert Sewell and the other I am not sure. These dates dont match. I will compare these dates to the two sources I have (Dr. S.U. Kamath- concise history of Karnataka) and Hampi- Travel guide (supported by the detartment of tourism, India). I will try to take the majority path for each Kings dates (and also whichever suits my pet theories). If anyone has any questions, please feel free to discuss.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Rama RayaDineshkannambadi 01:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please tell me what/where is the source of this information about the Aliya Rama Raya that exists in the "Empire at its peak" section.

"Rama Raya was brutally killed and his head annually covered with oil and red pigment was exhibited in Ahmednagar till 1829".

I have not come across this in all my sources. It seems there is something either wrong with the date 1829 or with this theory itself.

Also, I have made a small correction to the line which had to do with Temples during Krishnadevaraya's time. Ordinarily people associate all temples in Hampi with Krishnadevaraya. This is not a true picture. Many temples started by earlier kings were completed by him. He also commissioned many temples that were later completed.

Dinesh Kannambadi

[edit] Vijayanagar Kings Template and Chronology

Hi. I have looked at the two existing chronologies in the Vijayanagar page (one is a colourful template) and the other called "Robert Sewell" list of Kings. I have compared these two lists to the three reference sources listed in the reference section, books which I happen to own (namely, Dr. S.U. Kamath, Prof. Nilakanta Sastri, Hampi- Travel Guide, Government of India). Here are my conclusions.

1. The colourful template seems to very closely match all the three provided references not only in the names of kings but also the years of rule for each king (Give or take a few years). Whoever put the template in did a good job (not me). 2. All the three mentioned reference books match almost exactly. Even the names of brothers (of kings) match. 3. The list provided under Rober Sewell seems to be way off in dates (sometimes by more than a decade) and also in the names and chronology of kings. Some kings in Sewell's list dont exist elswhere and some in all the other sources dont exist in Sewell's list. In Sewell's list the kings called under Saluva dynasty are actually put under Tuluva dynasty by all the other sources. In the Sewell's list, kings put into Tuluva list are actually in the Arividu dynasty list for all other sources. So there are major differences.

I have decided to go with the majority and maintain the existing Template (I will add dates to appear next to the name). The template needs a few corrections for the Aravidu list which I shall make.If anyone has any questions please dont hesitate to contact me. I understand Sewell was the first writer on the history of the empire (1905), but later researchers used more advanced methods of research and are probably more reliable. I will also study the contents of pages for each king and bring in matter from Dr. Kamath and Prof. Sastri. Sometimes the two scholars may not match in their opinion and I shall make that also clear. Enjoy!!!Dineshkannambadi 00:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phpto of Annamacharya

I plan to insert a photo of Purandaradasa in the religion section. Can someone please bring in a photo of Annamacharya so as to provide a "balanced view". I dont see a Photo in the page for Annamacharya. Dineshkannambadi

[edit] Vijayanagar Literature

I have created a main page for this section since it has grown considerably and just retained the "bare bones" of it for the Vijayanagar Empire page. I still have some work to do, which is to add other well known poets in Kannada and Telugu. I shall complete this in a weeks time.

Dineshkannambadi

[edit] Photo

i would suggest including Photo of Saint Kanakadasa as well in kannada literature section.--Ganesha1 21:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] scholars and their research books

For every scholar quoted in the "Origin" section, I have created a "note" to indicate the book they wrote, its title etc. This will make it easier for people to understand who is who and not question the identity of any scholar.

Dineshkannambadi

[edit] Work needed to be done in 2-3weeks

1. Complete work on each individual king from multiple sources (Prof. KAN Sastri, Dr. Kamath) 2. Complete work on Telugu/Kannada poets in main article page 3. Decline of Empire section--> Aravidu dynasty

Dineshkannambadi

[edit] Flag

Hi. Someone added a flag of the Vijayanagar Empire. It looks just like the Maratha flag. Is this a mistake or a coincidence or a joke?

Dineshkannambadi

[edit] Topics to work on

These are the topics I have earmarked to work on in the coming weeks and months. (I have recently completed Vijayanagar Literature, Basic bage on Vijayanagar Architecture, Haridasas of Vijayanagar Empire, Battle of Talikota and should be done with individual kings in a week.)

1. Decline and Aravidu Dynasty
2. Hippogryphs of Vijayanagar (focussing on their pillars from Hampi, Lepakshi, Kolar etc)
3. History of Tuluva People/Saluva People
4. Continue to elaborate on Vijayanagar Architecture and influence of Tamil Dravida styles in Saluva/Tuluva period
. 5. Hydraulics Works and water supply
6. Virgals, Satigals, inscriptions etc
7. Elaborate on Tamil literature (If I can get hold of the info)

I have a new book with me called "New Light on Hampi" by George Michell et.al. This book talks in detail about Inscriptions, virgals, Satigals, Mastigals etc apart from discussing about architecture. I intend to create a page for this too.

Please help to keep controversy out of this page so we can focus on the important details.

Dineshkannambadi

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