Talk:Vermont Republic

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[edit] Talk From U.S. Page

This material was moved from Talk:Historic regions of the United States: Lou I 14:14, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is controversy over whether Vermont was ever officially recognized by the United States before its admission into the Union.

I submit that the United States maintained limited diplomatic relations, albeit with the aim of convincing Vermont to either reintegrate with its parent states, or itself join the United States, but a formal recognition nontheless.

Since Vermont was not retaken by force, its legislative institutions were preserved, and it was admitted as a new state, this ipso facto constitutes recognition that there was a legitimate independent political entity that had the right to join to begin with.

Some questions about the Republic of Vermont

Was there ever an exchange of ambassadors between the Republic of Vermont and another nation?
Was there ever an Act of U.S. Congress or U.S. Executive Order that mentions "The Republic of Vermont"?
Was the President of the Republic of Vermont ever received as a head of state by the U.S. President or Congress?

I certainly do not subscribe to your de facto theory of recognition, and I would submit most historians would not either. Another incident in U.S. history where the U.S. government had interacted with self-proclaimed government was in the self-proclaimed State of Deseret, the organs of which largely became the Utah Territory, although the government of Deseret was never recognized in any formal sense by the U.S. Likewise California and Oregon were somewhat self-organized (see Republic of California and Champoeg, Oregon) prior their their admission to the union (CA) or organization as territory (OR). Other instances certainly exist. There was necessarily a large tolerance for letting people create their own unrecongized govermental organs as a precursor to admission to the Union.

[edit] Vermont before 1791

There are currently two articles, this one and New Hampshire Grants. The Grants article certainly has more material, but I suggest we keep discussion here. I’d also suggest the following split between the articles:

GRANTS ARTICLE: The history of he grants and towns from the start to about 1775, including the dispute between New York and New Hampshire, royal resolution, etc.
THIS ARTICLE: Events in Vermont from about 1775 to 1791, and its history during that period.

Naturally, these articles should link to each other, to History of New Hampshire, etc. Lou I 14:14, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The national Congress pretty well kept a hand's off policy to the situation. Their official view was that the Vermont area was Cumberland County and Gloucester County, New York. But, after 1775 these two counties were only present in New York's assembly for two months in 1779 during a brief period of attempted reconciliation. The representatives (Micah Townsend, et.al.) actually tried to negotiate a cash price for recognition, but failed.

Hostilities actually began around 1769, when locals began to ignore New York courts, sherrifs, etc. They peaked in 1775 when Allen siezed Fort Ticonderoga, as much to take it from New York as from the British. After the battle, as a compromise, the Vermonters withdrew but turned the fort over to Connecticut militia as a sort of neutral force. The need to address the Revolutinary War with Britain kept both sides from actively pusuing the matter further. During the war, some independent groups saw action, but most men involved simply joined either a New Hampshire or a New York regiment. Lou I 15:47, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you search the journals of the Continental Congress at LOC American Memory, the document "Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 17 March 1, 1781 - August 31, 1781--with the Vermont Agents," refers to the agents of the "State of Vermont." Whether that's a state-state or a U.S. state is, well, up to debate. It also says, "This series of questions and answers represents the proceedings of the only known meeting between the Vermont agents and this congressional committee." Also, I think that the U.S. holding negotiations with an extralegal entity is NOT the same as it being a legitimate nation-state. By that definition, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians could apply to have Waco, TX added to the list. jengod 22:47, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kentucky?

in part as a counterweight to Kentucky

This is out of the blue. I would be interested in hearing what this is about. The sentence following this is also not particularly clear. Thanks. PerlKnitter 13:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I.E. the "North v. South" buissiness leading up to the civil war. Every time a Free/Slave State was admitted, one of the opposite type was usually arrainged to make it agreeable to both sides, as with 2 Senators of each type from the new states whould join, possibly at the same time, neither faction whould have an increased majority in the upper house. 68.39.174.238 01:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger with First_Vermont_Republic

It seems that First_Vermont_Republic exists only to provide a link to Second_Vermont_Republic, and that's already here.DLaub 06:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vermont Republic vs. Republic of Vermont - which is it???

An anon just changed it from the former to the latter. I cannot find a definitive ruling either way in a few minutes of online research; both are present, although Vermont Republic seems to get the nod. I have rolled it back so the first reference matches the article title, parrtly because an unexplained anonymous edit should always be regarded with suspicion. But somebody with access to serious Vermont history material should explain it here. (by the way, Republic of Vermont redirects to this article) - DavidWBrooks 01:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If its any help Google returns many more results for "Vermont Republic" than "Republic of Vermont" the former seems to have many more historical references too. My guess is it should be the former. - Mickmaguire 14:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Myth!

See Vermont Life Summer 2006 for the article "What Second Vermont Republic" by Hand and Muller III. This article destroys all notions that a Vermont Republic ever existed and for me proves that those setting forth this idea are fabricating their facts. Someone from their organization is supposed to address the article in the next issue of Vermont Life but I doubt they will have anything very interesting to say.

[edit] Possibly a Republic of necessity, but a Republic nonetheless

The recognition by the U.S. government of Vermont as a separate state, republic, or nation has little bearing on Vermont's existence as a republic. Like any group, Vermont's founders were varied and ranged from seeking full statehood, a looser association as under the Articles of Confederation, and permanent separation. While it is unrealistic to suggest that most Vermonters in the period 1777-1791 favored independence from the U.S., a functioning state (here used to mean government) with independent links to foreign governments, and a representative form of government took root in Vermont. Partly out of necessity that government gave Vermont elements commonly associated with a nation: a constitution and declaration or rights; a flag–the Council of Censors and Governor's Council adopted the Green Mountain Boys' infantry flag as the flag of Vermont; paper and coin currency was issued, and there Vermont was titled in Latin "VERMONTENSIUM RESPUBLICA"; ambassadors of some sort were sent to Paris, New York, The Hague and later Philadelphia when the U.S. capital temporarily moved there, and a postal service was operated. Several printed broadsides bear the inscription "S.P.Q.V." (Senatus Populus Que Vermontensium). Before statehood, the United States did not claim jurisdiction over Vermont. The notion of a once free and independent Vermont has contemporary appeal. That should be balanced with the pragmatic observation that during the Revolutionary War, and under the Articles of Confederation, the U.S. government had received direct appeals from Vermont for closer association, and later admission. Surrogate representatives also took up Vermont's desire for admission. Connecticut's representative William Samuel Johnson several times spoke before the Continental Congress for Vermont's joining the original thirteen states. Frederic DeWater, author of "The Reluctant Republic: Vermont 1724-1792" suggests the U.S. just had its hands too full to deal with this. During the Revolution, with few exceptions, Vermont's interests were parallel with the U.S. eliminating any need for the Continental Congress to focus on Vermont. Later, while the U.S. was attempting to form a stronger central government, immediate incorporation of Vermont, a new state that was blatantly antislavery would have been one more problem to address while attempting ratification. Yet very shortly after the federal republic was surely established Vermont was admitted.

While the government of Vermont did cloak itself in several forms of a nation, it also frequently referred to itself as a state. The 1777 constitution's parchment copy is titled "Constitution of Vermont" but, the 1777 constitution in its printed edition says "State of Vermont" on its title page and in text refers to a "Commonwealth of Vermont," fourteen years ahead of statehood. Thomas Chittenden was titled "Governor" not president. His pre-statehood Thanksgiving Proclamations are addressed to the "Freemen of the State of Vermont." Even Vermont's coinage reveals hope of future statehood. The reverse side of the 1786 "coppers" featured a thirteen point star (likely representing the U.S.) surrounded by fourteen stars, and a Latin passage: Quarta Decima Stella," which can be translated to mean we are the fourteenth star. The fourteenth star in the U.S. federal union is not a leap.

Yes, there is a need not to mistake the Vermont Republic with a desire for permanent political independence. But it is equally important not to under estimate the importance of Vermont's fourteen years of independence on the state's self image and continuing distinct culture of independence. Many of the differences found when comparing Vermont with neighboring New Hampshire might be explained by their difference in political history. Like Texas, Vermont's birth was tumultuous and unique. Vermont was a self invention of will, with adversaries on several fronts. The epitaph on the grave marker for Thomas Chittenden, Vermont's first governor, suggests why this period left an indelible mark on Vermont's character; "Out of storm and manifold perils rose an enduring state, the home of freedom and unity." Interpretation of the use of "state" will remain open. CApitol3 16:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

To address your last point, most other US States called themselves States before the US Constitution or even Articles of Confederation were written. To me, it seems likely that the name "State of..." was simply the alternative to "Republic of..." used at the time of the American Revolution when republics were much less common, and therefore there was no precedent for what to call a country without a King. I therefore think that "State of..." did not at that period suggest a subnational entity as it does now. However, I'm not a Vermonter/Vermontian, or even an American, so not an expert on the issue. Paj.meister 15:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boundaries/map of Vermont Republic

(I assume the Republic did not have the same borders as present-day Vermont.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 14:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Map request removed, the borders were the same as today, at least according to [3]. Period maps showed the entire area as part of New York [4].Kmusser 04:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Vermont republic was slightly larger than the present state of Vermont in that several towns presnetly in New Hampshire were within the Vermont Republic. This included Hanover, site of Dartmuth College. Congress established the boundary at the middle of the Connecticut River when it admitted Vermont to statehood. The Vermont-New Hampshiire border issue has been visited several times, asrecent as the 20th century. CApitol3 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I found confirmation of that at http://www.hanovernh.org/about but I couldn't find a list of what towns were involved anywhere - that's not enough info to base a map on. If anyone finds more details I'll gladly make a map reflecting them. Kmusser 16:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The flag

Isn't that the flag of the Second Republic?

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