Talk:Venus Express

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[edit] Microns

RE: Gene Nygaard

ESA uses "microns" on their website. Please visit the website and reference it to see. Basically, po'tay'to, po'tah'to. --208.183.225.11 18:06, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

No. More like Fred Flintstone units. With an official CGPM resolution against their continued use in place of the proper micrometre or micrometer name.
But if you want to make that claim, back it up with a specific citation connected to the linked pages, not some unrelated use.
The ESA may well use microns at times. In fact, they do. They also use the kilogram-force and tonne-force to measure thrust, usually just calling them kilograms and tonnes. That doesn't mean it has to be acceptable for use in Wikipedia. Just more holdover Fred Flintstone units, unacceptable in the modern metric system. Old bad habits sometimes die hard.
BTW, the links take you to at least one page ("Next article" at bottom of link to instrumentation) where they use "the 0.9 μm to 45 μm wavelength range", with a space before the units in addition to the correct symbol for micrometers, not the unspaced "0.9µ and 45µ wavelength range" you used, or at least are standing up for. Gene Nygaard 19:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not that unusual, and the continuation of micron is rather universal. Physicists and engineers generally reserve micrometer for the measurement device and physical length of items that range from 1 to 100 μm. When talking about radiation wavelengths, micron is still frequent when talking about the electromagnetic spectrum. Can't believe someone wants to start an edit-war over it? If so, one better start changing references to metric tons to megagrams, or better yet kilo(kilograms); and get rid of the litre and put it all into cubic metres. And make nuclear guys get rid of barns and so and so on. Frankly, micron is unambiguous. And furthermore, μm has always been the symbol for micron in engineering practice. μ alone harkens back to the day when γ stood for 10-6 gram, λ stood for 10-6 liter, and thus mu was 10-6 meters. It's not like they're measuring it in binary fractions of an inch!!! --Sturmde 19:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  1. Metric tons, or tonnes, are specifically declared acceptable for use with SI.[1] That applies, however, only to their use as units of mass, not as units of force. Using tonnes for thrust (i.e., tonnes force) is not acceptable with SI.
  2. Liters are officially acceptable for use with SI.[2]
  3. Even barns make the list of units temporarily acceptable for use with SI.[3] A different list, not on a par with liters and tonnes, but currently accepted.
  4. Double prefixes are not acceptable for use with SI.[4] You must be confused about the meaning of "base unit" as that term is used in metrology.
  5. But microns were specifically made unacceptable in 1967.[5]
Furthermore, the usage that existed in this article puts the lie to your claim that "µm has always been the symbol for micron in engineering practice"—as do a great many old textbooks. Gene Nygaard 20:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


you guys need to get outside some.

[edit] Sentence in the intro is grammatically incorrect and confusing.

"For example, since Venus is approximately twice as close to the Sun than Mars, the radiant heating of the spacecraft will be four times greater for Venus Express, the ionising radiation environment will be harsher and the illumination of the solar panels will be more intense."

Does this mean that the distance from the Sun to Venus is half of the distance from the Sun to Mars?

[edit] Chill Out

Ok guys, enough with the microns. I do not think it really matters whether or not microns are used, although I do think, for the sake of wikipedia, we should stick with micrometers. Microns are still used quite often today and is thus not "Fred Flinstone" units. Basically, nobody cares. Let's leave it at that.

As far as the "Sentence in the intro is grammatically incorrect and confusing," I will work on that. Relax people.  ;) --Marsbound2024 01:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] "Does this mean that the distance from the Sun to Venus is half of the distance from the Sun to Mars?"

Yes. Venus is approximately 0.7AU from the Sun and Mars is around 1.5AU (or roughly twice the distance from the Sun to Venus). AU stands for Astronomical Unit, which is a unit that compares the distance from the Sun to the Earth with that of other objects. Thus, Venus' orbit is only 0.3AU from Earth (or almost 28,000,000 miles). There are about 93,000,000 miles in one AU.

--Marsbound2024 01:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Should the years be linked?

It doesn't seem like all of those dates and years in the timeline should be linked. There was no point in 11 consecutive links to 2005. And the dates themselves aren't significant in any context outside of the Venus Express. The Wikipedia Manual of Style says to avoid unnecessary links and also that only full dates should be linked. I tried converting the date links to full dates before removing them, but they were all red, so what was the point? --Cyde 16:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I don't think so

I think you did the right thing by removing all of those links to 2005. It was getting ridiculous. In fact, I see no reason for linking the entire date on these either. Perhaps there should be a link to things such as "11 November", but other than that, if it is repeated, there is almost not need to link it again. If this appears quite far down in an article and it is actually of significance, then it probably should be linked again. Good call in my opinion, Cyde. --Marsbound2024 17:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

No, dates need to be linked in this manner to enable the user preference for date format. Please do not alter these. Rmhermen 18:08, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Dates (day+month) need to be linked everytime as Rmhermen explain. Years with no date need to be linked only once. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 16:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I still think there should be a reduction in links. It is seemingly ridiculous to link "2005" so many times. I can understand the month and day to an extent, but not the continuous 2005s. Perhaps they merely signify a complete date and thus are more for aesthetic value than for anything else? Meaning, their only purpose is to complement the month and day. Just my thoughts. --Marsbound2024 17:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Late response, but this linking is a matter of software function, not personal opinion. Dates that are linked [[day month]] year do not properly function for user preference. Dates must be linked [[day month]] [[year]]. Rmhermen 15:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this sentence correct?

For example, since Mars is approximately twice as far from the Sun as Venus is, the heating of the spacecraft will be four times greater for Venus Express than Mars Express.

Should it be the other way around? Venus is closer so it should receive more heat. If heating here means "heat coming from the Sun" (as opposed to the heating systems mentioned in the last sentence) then this sentence probably needs rewording since as it stands it is somewhat ambiguous. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 16:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] It does seem ambiguous

You also misunderstood it. It is not referring to heating caused by the spacecraft, but by the Sun. I suppose I should edit it and say "solar heating" or an equivalent. --Marsbound2024 17:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Technical Data

I used data prodused from EADS press releas:

http://www.space.eads.net/press-center/press-releases/venus-express-en Dimensions: 1.5 x 1.8 x 1.4 m Mass at launch overall 1250 Kg Propellant: 570 Kg Payload 90 Kg

The guy(63.241.34.4) got info from ESA: http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/VENUSEXPRESSLR.pdf Dimensions: 1.5 x 1.8 x 1.4 m Mass at launch overall 1270 Kg Propellant: 570 Kg Payload 93 Kg

EADS actually prodused space craft, but ESA data looks less rounded. What should we use? May be not awfully important but anyway.

[edit] Lander?

I was checking out this and it lookes like there's a lander on the Venus Express? I knew that Rosetta has a lander, but I didn't know that Mars Express had a lander! But Beagle 2 lander wasn't sucsessful (to bad!). But does this mean that VEX has a lander? If it does, I have some questions:

  • What is it called?
  • Where will it land?
  • When will it land?

I'll try to find out about this right now. But if you know anything, help me. — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 20:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Go to the official web site and look under About Venus Express. There is no such thing as a lander. Awolf002 21:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
If there isn't a lander, what's this sopost to represent? — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 20:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Dunno, just a picture? Read this at the ESA wbe site to see what is studied as an "advanced concept". Awolf002 22:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it's an atmosphere probe! Well, I ment to say a probe that will go through Venus' clouds.
— Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 20:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surface imaging

It is--to put it mildly--unfortunate that VEX does not have an imaging radar. I added a sentence to indicate this. Since Magellan did have one and since it accomplished the amazing feat of pealing back the atmosphere to show the planet surface, we have another example here of space programs taking giant leaps backwards, no doubt due to budget constraints. I think it is in the interest of full disclosure to point this out (using neutral language). This is not to disparage in any way the instrumentation that does exist on the VEX platform. Rob Fatland

There's no harm in mentioning this difference between Magellan and VEX, but the word 'unfortunately' is not neutral! The mission was not intended as a radar mapping mission, it was designed to do other things. It's like saying 'Unfortunately, the Ford Mondeo does not have wings, and thus cannot fly' - accurate, but not exactly fair. :) The Singing Badger 18:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
A synthetic-aperture radar system and its requirements are pretty complex and would be best included in a separate probe. Since Magellan mapped most of the surface at pretty high resolution, I'm not sure that would be a scientific priority. DonPMitchell 19:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Data

Will the ESA post the images and data from Venus Express somewhere? Not just a few highly-processed images for the press, but all the data. The European Space Agency seems much less open than NASA with its data. But if there is a site, let's find it and include it in the links. DonPMitchell 19:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"The" ESA or simply ESA (like NASA, not the NASA) has just released the first images. See venus.esa.int

That's it, I'm afraid. I know they won't release anything much, though some highly processed press release images are better then nothing. Perhaps those could be fit in somewhere?--Planetary 09:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it does kind of suck. Their images aren't free to use either like NASA's are. I've been working on the atmosphere of Venus article since I created it a few days back and I wish I could put in the image of that double cyclone near the south pole. Well, at least they sent the probe there. Mithridates 10:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mag Info

The information regarding the magnetometer experiment is incorrect, or just badly explained.

>The magnetometer is designed to measure the strength of Venus's magnetic field and the direction of it as affected by the solar wind and Venus itself

Venus does not have an intrinsic magnetic field, however the ionosphere does interact with the interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) creating the phenomena described.

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