Talk:Venetian language

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[edit] Color in Infobox

Someone changed the color in this page's infobox, complaining that lawngreen is an eyesore. I agree, it's not the best color, but the reason it was there is that is the (current) color in the template for all Indo-European languages. If you have any better suggestions for a better color scheme (one that gives a unique color for all the known language families), please contribute to the discussion at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages. And, I encourage anyone interested to help out with the project. There are still a lot of languages with articles not using the template.--Tox 11:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia in Venetian

If you are interested to support the creation of a Venetian Wikipedia you can go to:click here to see the request for a ven.wikipedia. Skafa 12:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Padovano?

I would be interested to see a discussion of Padovano in this article. Linguistically I expect it's just a dialect of Veneto, but I think it has some distinctive features. --Trovatore 23:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Veronese Riddle

This article claims the Veronese Riddle is in Venetian; the article on the Riddle says it's a transition between late Latin and early Italian. Which is it? Binabik80 16:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Now I remember i inserted that link. I tried to be succint and in doing so i could not explain everything. I believe what is being said here is not at odds with the other article, see my comment here. By the way, this article has told me something i was not quite aware of. I live in Verona and i have always noticed strong similarities between Spanish and Venetian. Fascinating. --Wikipedius 23:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the family tree

I inserted a tree because the "X branches off after Y" language does not make sense to me. It's true there is a partial tree in the box (if a tree pruned of all branches but one can be called a tree) but that tree does not show how Venetian is related to French and Spanish. —Tamfang 17:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, ok. I tried to clarify the intended meaning; see if it makes sense now. (By the way, that parag was not mine.)
But perhaps we should omit the explanation althogether and just keep the conclusion, namely: "In the traditional classification, Venetian is more closely related to French and Spanish (in that order) than to Italian." After all, the internal node names like "Gallo-Iberian" and "Gallo-Romance" are just hypothetical entities, not real languages.
Moreover, i gather that the tree assumed in this paragraph is only an opinion of some linguists, not the Absolute Truth. In fact, it seems that Romance is one of the examples that are usually invoked to show that language evolution cannot be described by a tree.
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 23:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm satisfied with your new language. Thanks. —Tamfang 04:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Given/if that the closest big language to Venetian is French & not Italian, it might be nice to have French example sentences along with the Italian ones. If there are no objections I might add those in. --Adamgarrigus 18:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I would agree on saying that venetian bears a good deal of resemblance to French and Spanish (and even more to Occitan and catalan), yet I would not agree on describing it as a Gallo-romance language, provided that celts never succeeded in invading the land, which could explain why it differs from neighbouring languages such as Emilian, Lombard and Piedmontese, but retains area-related similarities with them. exemples : sounding intra-vowel consonants [kaZa](=house), but vowel endings present in other common words [latE](=milk) instead of italian gallo-romance "lat", "let" and franch "lait". for reference see Graffi-Scalise (don't remember the title, sorry). s-ciao vostro.

 morteaglistolti

[edit] Goldoni and Commedia dell'arte

Jorge/everybody: Perhaps I shouldn't have deleted the old version straight away but the wording was really awkard. Pierrot (I still can't figure out what Pierrot has to do with venetian language...), Arlecchino etc were not invented by Goldoni (therefore can't be considered his characters), and Goldoni himself is famous because he reformed the commedia dell'arte. The current version is much better than the previous, anyway, although Arlecchino had a significant role in Goldoni's plays (no doubt about it), i think the "commedia dell'arte" as mentioned in the article should be considered "italian" rather than venetian. Also, I am not so sure that Goldoni's plays made Arlecchino become part of world's folklore... I presume this is questionable... perhaps contributed to make. I think the text can be improved further. Your thoughts?Lorenzino 21:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not know, really. Pierrot was indeed a big mistake of mine, and Colombina seems to be too. But I still believe that the world knows Arlecchino as a theatrical character almost only through Goldoni's plays; see e.g. [1]. Indeed, the world seems to believe (as I did until yesterday) that Goldoni's theater is typical "Commedia dell'Arte"; whereas now I have learned from Carlo Goldoni that he has even been called its nemesis.
Arlecchino is also well known as a Mardi Gras costume, and indeed he and his love Colombina are traditional items in Brazilian Carnaval's folklore. But I do not know whether that folklore came to Portugal from France, or directly from Venetian/Italian Carnevale. In the former case, Goldoni may have helped. How popular was the Commedia dell'Arte (other than Goldoni's) in France?
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 05:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Writing system

Jorge, I amendend your contribution. Your clarification was inconsistent with the article itself: "Otherwise, the spelling rules are mostly those of Italian, except that x traditionally sounds similar to the z in English zero. As in Italian, the letter s between vowels usually represents the [z] sound, so one writes ss in those contexts to get a simple [s]: basa = [baza] ("(he/she) kisses"), bassa = [basa] ("low")." We had just stated that the [z] sound is written with an x, and one line below now I read it's represented with an s. I wrote about the two different systems used although i believe the x/s is the better and it's also the one used in the Wikipedia Veneta http://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Convenzsion_de_scritura . Cheers Lorenzino 14:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The wording was a bit confusing, but not inconsistent. The letter x, which is not used in Italian, is pronounced [z] if used in Venetian, e.g. in Venice tradition "el ghe xe". But still, in all traditions, s between two vowels is pronounced [z], too, according to the Italian model; as in baso ("kiss"). On the other hand, in all traditions, s at the beginning of a word is usually pronounced [s] -- again, as in Italian.
Note that while there never was an "official" spelling, there is' a centuries-old tradition of spelling Venetian with some approximation of the Italian spelling (Keep in mind that, for the last 150 years or more, anyone who knew how to write had learned the Italian system at school. Check for example the site of Francesco Artico, which is representative of all Venetial texts I have seen so far.
The modern systems, like the one adopted for the Venetian Wikipedia, may be popular among those dreaming to revive Venetian, Lega Nord style or whatever. But I don't quite see the point of that effort. Presently Venetian is valuable (a) for its literary heritage (which, while not negligible, is dwarfed by that of Tuscan); and (b) to old folks like me, for its sentimental value. Introducing a new spelling system will negate (a) and (b). So what is the point?
100 years ago one may have debated whether teaching Italian to the Venetans was worth the effort. Perhaps it was a stupid decision, but anyway it was taken. Now that the effort has been done, going back would be triple stupid: all the effort again (to teeach them the "new standard Venetian"), only to get to a situation where the "market" for each citizen would be reduced from a community of 50 million(?) to one of 2 million, with a much smaller literary baggage, zero world recognition, etc. Even the most ardent separatist must see that exchanging Italian for Venetian does not make economic sense. No, thanks. I am happy to enjoy what is left of Venetian while I live (obviously, spelled the way I am used to); but I will not feel very sorry if the language dies before I do. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 15:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


Sir, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not a separatist and I don't vote for Lega Nord. I thought this was a discussion about the language but here I find your political moanings. Fair enough. Going back to the point I personally prefer the x/s system as it reflects the phonetics with basically no exceptions. And spelling systems are agreed to reflect a spoken language, not the other way round. The s/ss leads to lots of exceptions, more than in italian. And, just for your reference, in the proper italian diction the intervocalic s should be pronounced sorda not sonora. Casa shouldn't be pronounced [kaza] but [kasa] and it IS still pronounced like that in many regions in Italy. The italian intervocalic s is different from the venetan. It's like trying to fit a suit to someone who's a different size. Different languages can have different rules...! I don't find irrespectful for anybody, not even for old literature that I love anyway. I find your final sentence much more offensive, if a bomb were dropped on the colosseum I'd feel DEEPLY sorry. And IMHO (and in Unesco's too...) linguistic heritage is as precious as architectural one. But these are ony opinions and they don't matter anyway. The fact is that this system exists and is used, therefore I think this should be reported. Anyway I'm happy enough with the current version. Regards. Lorenzino 23:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Lorenzino, sorry if my words souded offensive; that was absolutely not my intent. Rest assured that I did not mean to say that anyone who loves dialect or who favors a new spelling votes for Lega Nord or whatever!
As for the spelling system, my point is that at the moment the spelling system of Venetian is the traditional one, based on the Italian spelling. With all its faults and inconsistencies, it has the weight of some 500 years of literature, and I believe that it is the most "natural" for most speakers, because they learned it at school. I agree that the new spelling systems are more logical, but they are still proposals, and it is not clear whether they will (or should) be widely accepted; therefore they should not be given precedence over the traditional system. (They could be a separate subsection, or, if that is more than a couple of paragraphs, a separate article.)
As for my final comment, the difference between a language like Venetian and a building like the Coliseum is that the latter is made of bricks, the former is made of people. It is certainly worth "wasting" a few bricks to preserve an important building, for our enjoyment; but it is not acceptable to impoverish some people's lives for the sake of preserving a language. If someone chooses freely to learn Venetian, preserve it, document it, etc. (like we have been doing here), that is wonderful. But if someone tries to impose Venetian on other people, or tries to prevent people from switching to Italian, or just tries to convince people to use it, that is not so wonderful anymore: it means trying to use other people as building material for a museum, for one's own enjoyment. It is like trying to convince women to use 19th century-style baleen corsets, because some men think that they look nicer that way. Or like lamenting the end of slavery — which, by te way, was far more fundamental to the culture of the Americas than Venetian is to the culture of Veneto.
Man has been speaking languages for the last 100,000 years at least, and it seems that no language can live longer than 1000-2000 years. Within that time span, if a language does not lose ground to another language, it mutates to the point of incomprehensibility. So, in the history of mankind there have been probably a hundred dead languages for every language that is alive today. On the other hand, about a hundred new creole languages have been born in the past 500 years alone, and many major languages are clearly diverging and will probbaly split in a few centuries more. All this is to say the loss of a language is nowhere as bad as the esxtinction of an animal species, but more like the death of a person: a sad event for its friends, but something we must learn to accept as part of the natural order of things. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 06:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

two more things. first of all, venetian is still alive, although we youngsters speak it in a different way from our grand-parents, using words and concepts they didn't know of "a so ndà zercare na storia in internèt ma me go ciapà on virus che me ga incatillà el ardisc". still it is a language, spoken by 2 million people (although according to an inquiry led by Il Gazzettino, whose quality has often proven to be dubious but still is a major area newspaper, roughly 75% of the venetian population speaks it at home, thus much more than 3 millions) and it should therefore be granted at least local official status, such as city council use. nowadays catalan, which was forbidden by Franco, is still spoken by 6 million people, in spite of 40 years of prohibition, and is now flourishing. it is not because it is some idiots who defend italian dialects that they must not be defended, in order to spite their face!!!

secondly, the θ sound that was described as regular in the central variant, is seen as mispronounciation (ła zhepoła) in my zone (polesine) where it is substituted by an allophone, whose symbol is unknown to me. it's another hissing sound, pronounced as an english "th", where the tongue is not placed between the teeth but right behind them, and makes it similar to a regular s, which is also, by the way, substituted by a weird sh-like sound (sorry, can't find the IPA) . any clues? s-ciao vostro. morteaglistolti.

[edit] Venetian in Dalmatia?

I am from Dalmatia, and so far I haven't heard there exist any remnants of Venetian language here. Some citation or source to confirm it would be in order, otherwise it should be removed. --Arny 14:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

it's confirmed by Ethnologue - Lorenzino 23:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Ethnologue is not always accurate. Maybe we should write something like "According to Ethnologue, ...". --zeno 19:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, Venetian slowly supplanted the Istrian and Dalmatian spoken in those areas (due to their being parts of the Venetian Republic until the end of the 18th C.) Of course, by then the numbers of Romance speakers compared to Croats was very small and combine this with the ethnic cleansing of the area by Tito's Yugoslavia after WWII and there's not likely to be much trace left by now. Seek100 17:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some errors

Please, follow the changes in Italian Wikipedia. This article has a lot of mistakes and this is similar to the old italian version. --Ilario 01:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help with translation

I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Venetian. Thanks, --Soman 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable sentence in intro

"Although commonly referred to as an Italian dialect (diałeto, dialetto), even by its speakers, it does not descend from the Italian language but has its own morphology, syntax and lexicon."

This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all. I'm trying to count how many non sequiturs there are in there:

  1. Having its own morphology, syntax and lexicon is neither a criterion for not being a dialect, nor for not being descended from Italian. Dialects too have their own morphologies, syntax and lexica, and so do things that are descended from something else.
  2. The sentence is playing fast and loose with the concept of "Italian" in the first place. If by "Italian" is meant the modern standard variety of Italian, then of course Veneziano isn't descended from it; they are obviously sister varieties descended from whatever historical ancestor(s) they had. If by "Italian" is meant the historical ancestor of today's standard Italian, well, that needs to be explained in the "Classification" section.
  3. In dialect geography, "having dialect status within a single language unit" and "being descended from a single, unique historical ancestor" are not really the same thing anyway.

I'm trying to come up with a better formulation, but maybe somebody else has some ideas too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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