Talk:Vedic period

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It has been proposed below that Vedic period be renamed and moved to Vedic culture.

The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move." If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

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[edit] Factual Inaccuracies

The entire series of articles dealing with the early history of South Asia on Wikipedia are riddled with content that is disputed by modern scholars. First off, it would be highly inaccurate to date the Vedic civilization to 1200 BC. India is replete with excavated idols, temples and archaeological sites that confirm the Vedic nature of the inhabitants and culture in South Asia much prior to that date. Secondly, I completely junk the distinction between the Vedic civilization and the "Indus Valley Civilization". This distinction is merely a myth propagated by colonial historians to justify the (nonsensical) Aryan Invasion Theory. Ok ... the complaints / disputes are just way too many to list. Whatever, I totally dispute this series of articles as being heavily biased in favour of typical "western view of Indian history".

The article Indo-Aryan migration is where this argument belongs, and that article correctly presents the various arguments concerning the origin of Vedic civilization with NPOV, including the continuous civilization theory which you are talking about. That would be the appropriate place to submit material related to your theory if you don't think that what they already have there is adequate. However, in the context of most articles about South Asia, the continuous civilization theory represents a "significant minority" viewpoint as said in WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and should be treated as such. If you disagree, you can present cited research to the talk pages for those articles. However you don't have cited sources for anything you just argued above, so unless you do, any effort to change the content or the status of the continuous civilization theory as a "minority" viewpoint is basically pointless. Mithunc 21:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Early Aryans

Some portions of the article prove the Aryans never invaded india, specially BB Lals book.

[edit] Surprisingly decent article so far

[edit] Map

The map is to be redrawn using Image:Northern india blank map.png. dab (ᛏ) 07:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Witzel is certainly not above criticism. so please read the recent book of B.B. Lal 2005 in which there is a very good explanation of Witzels Fake on a Srautasutra verse. Witzel and "invasionists" school are aeger to authenticate whatever they find againt "nationalistic" school without a profound criticism. This fake is a prove.

THE HOMELAND OF THE ARYANS Evidence of Rigvedic Flora and Fauna & Archaeology by B.B. Lal (with contributions by K.S. Saraswat) New Delhi: Aryan Books International (aryanbooks@...), 2005 ISBN 81-7305-283-2, pp. xx+126, 32 colour plates, Rs. 500/- (paperback edition)

The first part of the book lists many species of trees, plants and animals mentioned in the Rig-Veda, with technical details on flora by Dr. K.S. Saraswat of the Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeobotany, Lucknow. Prof. Lal disputes the claim (by Gregory Possehl) that the Veda mentions flora & fauna from cold climates and shows that the Rig-Veda's flora and fauna point to a tropical habitat that includes parts of Afghanistan and the Indian subcontinent, Sri Lanka & Myanmar. He concludes that the Rig-Vedic Aryans were indigenous. This is probably one of the best researched studies so far on the topic.

The second part consists of several papers and notes on the homeland of Indo-European languages, Michael Witzel's mistranslation of Baudhayana Srautasutra, radiocarbon dates of 40 plants from Kunal, Banawali & Rohira, the horse, and the humped bull.

The book has lots of photos and maps and is well produced.

[edit] Questions

the introduction seems to indicate that there is a difference between Hinduism and the vedic civ/culture.... yet it isn't quite spelled out in the article. Sethie 08:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the article does provide the answer when it wrote that the culture was transformed into classical forms of Hinduism, but it would be interesting to hear more on this issue.

My questions are about the oral tradition. In the article on Hinduism, they say that most scholars agree that Vedic knowledge was maintained by a long oral tradition. How this oral tradition relates to the Vedic civilization? The second question is what is the status of this oral tradition today? Are all aspects of this cultural heritage, which was maintained through this oral tradition, considered a part of the religion? For example, is the grammar of Panini considered a part of the religion? Amrit 23:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

yes, there is certainly continuity between Vedic religion and modern Hinduism. Continuity does not equal identity. "Hinduism" is a huge umbrella term, imposed on the entire subcontinent by westerners. Calling "Hinduism" a single religion is like calling Ancient Egyptian religion, Abrahamic religions, Germanic paganism, Finnish paganism and Graeco-Roman religion a single religion, "Occidentalism" or similar. So, you may include Vedic religion in Hinduism, no problem. It is a subset of Hinduism, defined in historical terms as those religious practices that were alive at the same time as Vedic Sanskrit, i.e. roughly 1500 BC to 500 BC. dab (ᛏ) 18:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vedic Naked truth : I smell a pro Aryan(hindu/nazi) bias

I Anirudh777 got carried away thinking wikipedia accepts user edits (which is wrong) and I added :

" The mode of vedic worship was performance of sacrifices and chanting of hymns (see Vedic chant). The priests helped the common man in performing rituals. People prayed for abundance of children, cattle and wealth. Vedas have detailed mention of various rituals and chants for pleasing gods for different occasions by lighting a ritual fire (yajna) and sacrifice(bali). It seems more or less like african tribal ritual & witchcraft.( Modern science has concluded that Indian subcontinent was attached to africa in ancient times. Later on it drifted away and got attached to asian plate which created himalaya mountains due to a huge thrust and it is still moving north.) In yajna the priests consumed intoxicants in large quantities, called soma and sacrifice of animals(cow, horse etc.) and also sometimes human sacrifice (Purushamedha) was performed. It is possible that various gods and godesses mentioned in vedas were products of hallucinations due to consumption of intoxicants. Soma drink was made from crushed stalks of either cannabis plant or ephedra plant or both (cannabis,marijuana,hash,pot or bhang is as common as grass in Himalayas). The Himalayan hindu sadhus (monks) are known to consume intoxicants even in present times. "

I got a message from Mr.Dbachmann to stop adding nonsense and ranting. And all my contribution was removed, rather I expected a notice - Neutrality of this article is doubtful. It appears that wikipedia is simply autocratic & self righteous.

Now let me elaborate. Four things were very common in vedic practices:

1. Lighting a sacrificial fire. 2. Chanting , invoking spiritual entities 3. Consuming intoxicants such as Soma (prepared from cannabis and/or ephedra stalks) 4. Sacrifice of animals, human etc.

As you may be knowing that all these were part of ancient religions such as African tribals(zulu etc) who danced around fire while their witchdoctors were invoking spirits, going into trance followed by sacrifice and even cannibalism. In Judaism , it was called burnt offering, OT mentions that for redemption of various sins various sacrifices were required such as of pigeons, sheep, goat, cow, bull etc. which Jewish temple priests performed in a sacrificial fire & blood of sacrificed animals was sprinkled on altar. In christianity the altar in churches is merely symbolic but it does exist as a remenant. Ancient Inca (south america) & yucatan civilization were having gruesome practices of human sacrifice to please spiritual entities such as severing of head & then extraction of beating heart as offering. In many parts of india , human sacrifice & canniballism continued as late as 1930s or 40s in remote areas such as south india(Kerala) and Northeast(Naga tribes). Any person can go and see in Nagaland & Tripura states many tribal houses decorate their entrance of house with a platform having human skulls on top as trophies even today. Nowadays the sacrificial practices in hinduism are symbolic only such as breaking a coconut as an alternative to human head(this is performed almost on every religious activity of some significance), human sacrifice of children in tantra(witchcraft) is still going on clandestinely although its unlawful.AtharvaVeda specifically mentions chants for destruction of enemy etc.various charms for various diseases , ailments and occasions. Vedic practices are considered undated by hindus, being timeless & going sice time immemorial.

Now regarding african connection. It is well known that india was a part of africa long time back & later on it moved away & joined asian plate creating himalaya mountains. Every Geology book mentions that. Many islands south of india have original ethnic tribes such as Jeravas inhabiting Andaman, Nicobar & Lakshdeep. These tribals look very much african with curly hair & dark skin & features peculiar to african tribes. If we dont accept this then , it is also known that human migration originally started from africa & moved to Iran, India, indonesia , australia etc. because all humans are homosepians with origin from africa. So it possible that early africans were barbaric, meat eating ( probably cannibals since they eliminated neanderthals). I think their spiritual practices , were what i mentioned earlier about jews, inca, etc.

I had added links from pages of wikipedia only such as : soma , Purushamedha , cannabis , ephedra and Yajna.

If it is thought that what i wrote is nonsense then in that case these pages also need to be removed by wikipedia. Can it be done?? The truth when covered up loses its sanctity. The Truth is a matter of fact and very much naked thats what i wrote.

Mr. Dbachman replied that what i wrote was very common & is already available. And human migration happened 100000 years back much later to separation of continents. But i say that the page appears to be heavily biased towards pro Vedic or pro Aryan attitude which can happen if it is written/edited by upper caste hindus or German Nazis influenced by Max Mueller. Upper caste hindus(called aryans) consider vedas to be the ultimate in spiritual knowledge & accept no criticism AT ALL.

No doubt - Aryan theory (vedic practices are in fact aryan practices) has caused much deterioration of human rights in India as well as in Germany. (I suspect it was borrowed from hinduism in Germany). In india Aryan theory is linked with caste system which created a slavery system causing misery, poverty, illiteracy & subjugation to more than a billion people (dalits) since a long time back which still exists in some form or the other even now (people still marry within their own caste & total no. of castes are approx. 8000 now ). In Germany, Aryan theory has done a similar thing called nazism, its consequences are well known. Therefore the naked truth is this that all vedic practices (of aryans) were barbaric & nothing but witchcraft similar to canniballistic tribal africans & need no praise rather deserve condemnation. Thank you. Anirudh

Aniruddh, just do your job and keep adding what you want to. Dont wait for Dbachmann and company from Zurich to edit it out and thus teach the world about ourselves. Imagine some geeks from halfway round the world teaching us about our own religion from a computer terminal. Tomorrow if I edit some articles on Swiss chocolat and William Tell, then how will they feel ? I think they sit in front of their terminal all day long (maybe even built a commode on the side). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IAF (talk • contribs).
- maybe you should learn to sign your name first, and maybe some WP:EQ, but after that I am looking forward to your well-researched contributions to Swiss topics. Perhaps you will be able to adopt a more encyclopedic attitude in topics you do not feel affect your personal identity. But in the case of Anirudh vs. IAF, I might also enjoy to sit back and watch the pro-Hindu and anti-Hindu fanatics tear each other to ribbons. I just wish you wouldn't pick these historical articles as your battlefield. dab (ᛏ) 08:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You may kindly get out of the Zurich Alps (after milking your cow dry) and come live in India for a year or two and learn something about Hinduism.

"But in the case of Anirudh vs. IAF, I might also enjoy to sit back and watch the pro-Hindu and anti-Hindu fanatics tear each other to ribbons."

Shows your true divisive and sadistic colours. I am all for healthy and verified debate even if its against the so-called anti-Hindu people. Aniruddh is my compatriot and I hold his verified claims in far higher esteem than Zurichised dogma.

I got a message from Mr.Dbachmann to stop adding nonsense and ranting. Ever heard of practice what you preach eh Dbachmann ? WP:EQ IAF

This is ridiculous. I am a Hindu, I am not from Zurich, and maybe I have to be the one to tell you that your information is uncited, unverified, not the majority viewpoint, and therefore not suitable for Wikipedia. Even if you do have relevant and cited information, it should be represented as an additional or alternate viewpoint, and not THE viewpoint. If you have something worthwhile to contribute, do so. If you want to write an article about how so-called upper caste Hindus are tied to Nazism and "Vedic practices," do it somewhere else. Mithunc 03:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

African Connection ??? The contenents seperated when dinosorous roamed. Even Monkeys where not there. So Giving that argument for connections is not valid.

[edit] EB 1911

note, I dumped the EB 1911 treatment at Vedic civilization/EB 1911, in horribly garbled OCR, to be proofread and incorporated. dab (ᛏ) 09:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

"extreme order" - I smell Dalitstans hand.Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

This article should be renamed as Vedic culture. The term civilization cannot be used in such a broad sense here. Civilization is associated with "cities" and "urbanisation”. In the Indian subcontinent the second urbanisation (after the Indus Valley) was in the Gangetic Valley. This happened with rise of empires like Magadha and not during the (earlier) Vedic period. This may be placed at WP:RM after discussion. Dakshayani 08:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

it is true that the term is misleading, particularly since our information is based on philology, not archaeology. Vedic period would be another possibility. dab (ᛏ) 18:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vedic Religious Practices: Wrong verse quoted

RV VII.56.17 is

दशस्यन्तो नो मरुतो मर्ळन्तु वरिवस्यन्तो रोदसी सुमेके | आरे गोहा नर्हा वधो वो अस्तु सुम्नेभिरस्मे वसवो नमध्वम ||

meaning

So may the Maruts help us and be gracious, bringing free room to lovely Earth and Heaven. Far be your bolt that slayeth men and cattle. Ye Vasus, turn yourselves to us with blessings.

source http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07056.htm

so the verse is quoted incorrectly. It does not mean "You should impart love to each other as the non-killable cow does for its calf " —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vkumarsharma (talk • contribs) 07:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

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