Talk:VBulletin

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the VBulletin article.

Contents

[edit] Something

I'm glad other readers have spotted the ad-like qualities of this piece - my first reaction when I read it was "WOW! How on EARTH did they think they would get away with that????". Quite frankly I think it reads more like an ad than most other unashamedly commercial ads. IMHO, its appalling, and in itself is enough to put me off the product...ESPECIALLY as there are lots of FREE solutions out there that do just as much, and don't blow so hard.

I LOVE wikipedia....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont let it get subverted by naked self-aggrandizement and commercialism like this!

Are there any sites where you can download free add-ons?

Yes --- vBulletin.org, vBhackers.com and vBwebmaster.com
Just remember you need a valid version of vB, which is validated before you get access to these mods. Havok 28 June 2005 07:41 (UTC)

Someone keeps removing the link to www.vBwebmaster.com --- why?

Because there is no valid reason to have a list of 800 fan based sites that are unoffical. Zachery.Woods

Hopefully I've improved the NPOV in the links section by explicitly listing official sites and grouping the unofficial ones in the relevant Google Directory entry. This way we link to unofficial sites but prevent the article becoming a collection of unofficial links. --83.98.253.113 13:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Article

It's good to have an article on vBulletin, but it's missing quite a bit; the history of its creation is an interesting story. The article has a few biased aspects.

"AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) integration for easy moderation."

  • I don't see the problem with this line, it's there to inform what AJAX is used for, in this case moderation, and to make it easier for the user. Havok 16:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

"For full list of features" link to vB site shouldn't be in the article body.

  • Again, I don't see the problem. Would it be better if we created an sub article for a list of features? Havok 16:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the pricing really necessary? It makes the article look like an ad. Maybe just mention the fact that there's two different license types.

  • I'm going to rewrite this line to be more fact and less ad. Havok 16:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

It's also weritten in the second person, when it shuld be in the third.

  • I'll start rewriting the text so that it follows the third person Havok 16:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

vBulletin 3.5 has ben released today, updated the article to that effect.

Is it really necessary to have anything besides the developer staff list--if even that? It doesn't really serve a purpose because most users will not know (or care) who those people are, unless they are part of the vB.com/vB.org community. Rob.daemon 09:06, 6 Nov. 2005 (US/Pacific)

[edit] BBcode

I made this Borgs8472 22:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how adding custom tags falls within the scope of this article. Or, at the least, this section could definitely be cleaned up a bit. Bit Haze 22:45, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
This section would probably be more at home in the Wikipedia: name space. Additionally it seems to me that [wikipedia] would be more appropiate than [wiki]. Frank Quist 15:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
^ ^ do you use bbcodes? The shorter the better Borgs8472 00:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tweaking

"Neutralizing" some of the article language as time permits. I run a vBulletin 3.5-based board and love the software, but this article should avoid superlatives and anything resembling marketing-speak.

Shouldn't there be more information? I know, add it myself ...

Dates of version upgrades and new features added with each upgrade. Origins and history of vBulletin (the UBB roots). Impex. Sctipt, CMS and MediaWiki integration.

Again, this shouldn't be an ad! vBulletin is one of amny excellent message board systems out there.

[edit] Add a Wikipedia BBCode code link to your vBulletin forum

  • AdminCP -> Custom BB Codes -> Add New BB Code:
Title: Wikipedia
Tag: wiki
Replacement: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{param}]{param}[/url]
Example: [wiki]VBulletin[/wiki]
Description: Wrap the [ wiki ] bbcode around key words in a discussion to allow readers to find out more about a particular topic or word without separate search being required by the poster.
Use {option}: No
Button Image: Not designed

This was originally in the article; I've removed it because we're supposed to avoid self-references, and also because it's poorly formatted. æle ✆ 01:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing poorly formatted about it :p Borgs8472 00:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

The external links section has become quite the hot-spot for changes. People continually add and remove their site's links and it's rather annoying because there is no hard-and-fast rule for what can and what can and cannot go in that section. I think that the rule should be this: only officially Jelsoft-recognized sites should be placed there. That limits it to: www.vbulletin.com, www.vbulletin.org, www.vbulletin-germany.com, and www.vbulletin-chinese.com.

The two foreign-language ones are recognized here. And www.vbulletin.org is recognized here (see the "vBulletin Customization @ vBulletin.org).

That's how I think it should be implemented: only if there is a link on the official vB site should a link be placed in this section. Comments? Rob.daemon 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree unless someone can make a very strong argument why their site is essential further reading. This is one of WP's most spammed pages, it seems. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 21:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
www.vbwebmaster.com is the only forum dedicated to vbulletin administrators. There is no such forum that is jelsoft recognized. This is an important resource for vBulletin owners and those considering owning a vBulletin. It is also a non commercial site. But I agree there shouldnt be 2 dozen sites listed that sell skins and hacks and graphics - Joeychgo
That may be true, but you're not a neutral source. I went to the site and your an administrator. And I'm a vB owner and a community regular, but I've never heard of this site until the Wiki article. Rob.daemon 22:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Netural source or not doesnt change what I said. Its a non commercial site thats dedicated to only VB owners and prospective owners.
Wikipedia:External links#What should not be linked to. æle ✆ 14:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Its not a link I posted to promote the site. - Leave the link alone.

It says clearly that only links to official vB sites should be posted, and if you posted it with the argument "www.vbwebmaster.com is the only forum dedicated to vbulletin administrators. There is no such forum that is jelsoft recognized. This is an important resource for vBulletin owners and those considering owning a vBulletin." it is to promote your site. Do not re-add it please. Havok (T/C) 21:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

only links to official vB sites should be posted was added long after a link to vBwebmaster was placed. Do not RE-Remove it please.
That's now being re-evaluated as things on Wikipedia are. And regardless of what it said before, it appears that the consensus now is that it should be official links only. Also, sign your comments (use the ~~~~ macro)! Rob.daemon 05:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added the offical vBulletin Germany site for vBulletin modifications (www.vbhacks-germany.com/forum/index.php). See the vBulletin.org forums for more information (vBulletin.org). Near the bottom of the forum list you'll find a link to the site ("vBHacks-Germany.com, Official Support Site for Hacked German vBulletin Boards") 216.215.128.255

Thanks, I didn't know that the site existed. And thanks for providing a reference. Rob.daemon 07:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
No problem, I figured you'd just remove it if I didn't provide a refernce ;) 216.215.128.130

IMO there's quite some bias now in the edits and reverts related to the external links. The vBHackers.com link was allowed to stay, while the link to the ODP was reverted by the very same editor who has kept removing other unofficial links, while still allowing vBHackers.com to be linked to. So to maintain a consistant policy, it's either 1) only official links or 2) all types of external links. No exceptions like vBHackers.com can be made, because that's not a consistant policy. My own compromise solution would be to have a link to the ODP for other external resources, which have been validated by ODP staff. I've now removed vBHackers.com and I expect that nobody starts toying around with those external links again. As for the rest, somekind of settlement should be reached. --Rasbelin 19:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as no compromise will ever be met it seems, I have removed the entire section. As such, no more arguments will happen. Havok (T/C/c) 20:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I dont believe that is any resolution. The other Wiki pages have external links, even for other forum software such as PHPbb. I agree, commercial sites should not be listed, so a site that only sells a product shouldnt be listed as that is spammy. Sites not dedicated to vBulletin should not be listed. But any site that is a resource for the vBulletin user should be listed. Wikipedia is for information - not turf protection. I have returned the external links section.Joeychgo
Joeychgo, I assume at that least you can agree with me that at least vBulletin.com and .org should be listed, if nothing else? If so, I suggest we first get a consensus on these two external links and then discuss from there onwards about any possible other external links on a case-to-case basis, getting a consensus before possibly adding anything else. This IMO would be the most diplomatic solution and would hopefully avoid further edit wars. --Rasbelin 22:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Havok, your approach is actually against the Wikipedia's policies on external links. WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to Furthermore going ahead and ripping away all links is just plain childish. I think everyone should now take a deep breath and work things out to achieve a mutual consensus. I'm sure you can agree about the approach I suggested to Joeychgo. --Rasbelin 22:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Nope, it is not policy, it's a guide. A link to vbulletin.com is allready featured in the product/company box at the very top of the page. So instead of vB's site being the only ones featured on the page, the entire section should be removed until consensus has been met. I would suggest a poll for different links, where we can use support, against and neutral. Any objections to this? Havok (T/C/c) 07:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I make a counter suggestion. I agree regarding the poll and the votings alternatives, but I disagree regarding the current situation and what the current (ie. as I type this) external links are. I suggest that we keep the current external links, as they follow the guidelines/policies (it's a different matter of debate if it's a guideline or policy, but if it would be just a mere guideline, we could just as well cut the article into a one sentence long article, without any consequences, because it was "just a guideline") regarding external linking. Other than that, I suggest the same as Havok has proposed. --Rasbelin 08:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It is a guidelines, it says so on the page. All official policies are taged as official policy. Of course you could cut the article into one sentence (which would get you a warning for vandalisme and revert), but that is not the discussion we are having here. The discussion is about which external links to keep. Havok (T/C/c) 12:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have now taken the liberty to restore my proposed version and await further feedback to this discussion, which could hopefully be kept creative. If the reverting continues, I'll request the article to be locked. --Rasbelin 22:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as my solution would stop the reverting, you only add fuel to the fire. Read my comment above and give me your response to it. Havok (T/C/c) 07:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
And you don't apparently know well enough the Wikipedia policies related to external links or then you just didn't care enough about the point I tried to make. See the internal link I provided in my previous reply to you abit higher up on this page. Especially pay attention to the point about linking to official sites. That's not something which is to add fuel to the fire, but actually trying to adhere to the official policies and make this article work. Now I think you can agree that official policy should be obeyed. So this can be concluded that the two current links present can be seen as a mandatory external links. As for other possible links, I think we should follow a case-to-case practice to evaluate them. However no links at all is not an option, because that violates the rules (or at least it can be argued the article is less useful then) and it's just stupid to act like you've done by forcing a "no links" policy, as it will just cause the links to come back sooner or later. A consensus is needed, which is what I try to get here. --Rasbelin 07:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no mandatory linking on WP, it's a guidline, not a policy. There is no way it says "External links MUST be in every single article." and by adding fuel to the fire I mean that you are purposely adding official links, when the guidelines state that there should be unofficial links on the list aswell. My suggestion to remove the links will not break any rules, regulation, policy or guidelines, it is merly a way to to let us decide on which links to keep. Havok (T/C/c) 12:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually there's in a sense mandatory external links on Wikipedia, or at least what could be called de facto mandatory external links, because it has become a standard the articles about companies and/or their products have an official link, just like the guideline suggests. So yes, it's not a outright written rule which can be put in a verbatim form, but a de facto rule based on common community practice. Just look up the articles for eg. Sun Microsystems, The Coca-Cola Company, Invision Power Boards or General Electric. IMHO this constitutes a doctrine which is plausible to apply here too. I do understand in a sense why removing everything could be a good idea, but I assume you can agree that most likely at least the two current external links would return. However I'm willing to compromise on this, as long as this becomes a working solution and the external links guideline and the de facto rules it has created, are being followed in this case too. So I accept your voting proposition and suggest we put it into action. I've removed all external links and request an edit lock until further notice, so this dispute can be solved. --Rasbelin 23:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I dont understand why placing non commercial sites dedicated to vBulletin is a problem? Shouldnt the reader of this article be able to find sites where he can get further information about the software? - To me that just plain makes sense. When I look around the other Wiki pages, most have such resources. What makes THIS page so special? Again, I dont think we should allow spammy sites or sites that are just there to make money. But sites such as vbhackers.com, vbwebmaster.com, vBulletin-faq.com, (among a few others) all offer broad advice and assistance to vBulletin forum owners and are great sources of information to the vBulletin admin and to someone looking to know more about the product. In other words they are useful to those reading the article and are not biased by being an 'official' Jelsoft site. This approach works fine on most of Wiki - what in the world is the problem HERE????? By deleting the links you are effectively saying only Official Jelsoft links, because those are contained within the article itself. --Joeychgo 23:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no working policy for the EL guidelines due to the fact that there is no need for one. Of course linking back to the company is good practice, and it is allready done in the company box, so again there is really no need for the section external links. My only reason for removing the section was to stop the edit war, and start a discussion on which links to keep. And Joychgo, with no links there is no bias. There is only the official site link at the very top of the page. I have never said we shouldn't have external links, but people keep reverting, adding, removing and updating with blog links, links to commercial sites etc. This was a way to remove that until the editors reached a consensus about what to keep and what to remove. Havok (T/C/c) 06:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Havok: You avoid my actual point. Now have a look at the examples I gave and come up yourself with some other ones to check. Now you notice a link to the official site both in the facts box and in the external links. So you can't deny that there's clearly a de facto mandatory linking policy, while it's maybe not written. So why should this article be different? I have a an ich you're now just trying to defend some personal stake you have in this. Having no external links defeats the point of this article as valuable, because it should then adhere to recommendable practice to meet the criteria of being a good article. As it seems, you're so far alone about supporting no external links at all. If there's no further support for it, the external links section will contain links. Joeychgo: Can you at least agree with my logic about there being external links, which should at least contain the links to the two official English language sites (vBulletin.com and .org)? Or are you suggesting the external links should be something else? --Rasbelin 04:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The guide which you speak of also says that the external links section should not be biased with only official links. There is nothing manditory about external linking. It is up to the editors to decide what should be linked, if anything should. And my only point - as stated before - is that if the extern links section is removed until we find a collection of links we want featured in the article, there won't be any arguments from anyone. Do you disagree with this? And how does not having external links defeat the point of this article as valuable? What makes this article valuable is the content of it, not the links it points to. I have nothing more to say, all I have ever said on the matter and the feelings I have about it are written in the comments above. Take them as you please, I only wanted the argument to stop by removing what the argument was about until a better solution came along. Havok (T/C/c) 05:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I have suggested, and suggested and suggested - nobody wants to listen. Ive offered a simple policy. The external links should contain external links to the official sites - but also to sites that are non commercial in nature and provide information to the reader of the article. As I said before, sites such as vbhackers.com, vbwebmaster.com, vBulletin-faq.com, (among a few others) all offer broad advice and assistance to vBulletin forum owners and are great sources of information to the vBulletin admin and to someone looking to know more about the product. In other words they are useful to those reading the article and are not biased by being an 'official' Jelsoft site. Im not talking about sites that just sell skins, or sell a vBulletin related product. Those commercial type of sites should be disallowed. Discuss that suggestion and tell me whats wrong with that? --Joeychgo
See my follow-up below for a compromise suggestion. --Rasbelin 15:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
"And my only point - as stated before - is that if the extern links section is removed until we find a collection of links we want featured in the article, there won't be any arguments from anyone. Do you disagree with this?" No, actually I don't disagree. I can compromise on that and stop arguing about this, because I rather see some results. I suggest we start making up a list of an initial small collection of external links, which can be added once there's agreement about it. Do you two agree with this proposal? Just reply yes or no. If we all agree, then I'll post a few suggestions and we can progress from that. When a settlement is reached and everyone is okay with the list, I'll request unprotection and add them to the article. --Rasbelin 15:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. But - what about future links? We need a basic set of guidelines as to what to aceept and what not. --Joeychgo
I'd say we should make a comprehensive, but yet limited selection of initial external links, thus not having to keep on adding new ones in the future. The initial set of links pretty much sets the standard for what to include in the future too, if something would be added. --Rasbelin 07:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

A link to www.vbseo.com should be included in external links. It is by far the largest community dedicated to discussion of vBulletin search engine optimization & has emerged as the source of one of the most widely known plugins and a prominent vBulletin related forum. Its relevance to the topic and value to users interested in vBulletin is clearly equivalent or surpassing in comparison to the other vBulletin external links. There may be some opposition because vBSEO is a commercial plugin. However, this does not discredit its informational value and suitability for inclusion in this wikipedia entry. vBulletin itself is, of course, a commercial plugin. --User:Hybridx 15:02, 17 August 2006 (AST) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.118.41 (talk • contribs).


I disagree. vBSEO's website is a support forum for its software, and all SEO discussions are skewed / biased toward their product. vBSEO is a commercial product. It should not be listed here. --Joeychgo

[edit] Reinstating {{cleanup}}

This article is still very incoherent past the first sentence, and some of it reads like ad copy. I'm putting the cleanup tag back on until we can decide on a good cleaned-up version. æle ✆ 23:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I found some time today to rewrite this article completely. I removed the entire bit about pricing, options, and all that stuff--it's like an advertisement. I removed the section about vBulletin.org because this is about software, not vBulletin and its surrounding aura. I changed the section on versions to be a more of "what has changed" list as opposed to a feature list. I cover vBulletin 2 and vBulletin 1 and vB Lite. I also added a history block. I revised it quite a bit in my sandbox to make it sound as NPOV-free as possible. Comments/changes welcome as long as they improve :). Rob.daemon 23:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:OWN

I've removed the ownership comment from the article text regarding external links. Wikipedia does not endorse only "official" links for anything (or, at least, it shouldn't). Obvious spam should be removed, but care should be taken to not disallow links that may be useful to readers or which aren't an attempt at spam. —Locke Cole • t • c 12:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I fail to see how this has anything to do with article ownership. Nobody's claiming that they own the article. æle ✆ 22:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Only "official" vBulletin links? You don't see how that makes it look like the article is owned by the creators of vBulletin? And in any event, there's also neutral point of view concerns to only allowing "official" links. —Locke Cole • t • c 23:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that WP:OWN only applied in cases where one or more contributors were actually claiming to own the article. NPOV concerns are an entirely different matter. æle ✆ 02:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
WP:OWN isn't specific regarding if it affects individuals or entities/groups, but I believe the intent was that no one may claim ownership over any part of an article. I believe saying only "official" links are allowed is effectively a claim of ownership over part of the article (no one may claim any article, in whole or in part, as their own). —Locke Cole • t • c 03:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
That makes sense to me - especially sites that are not spammy or non commercial. Its one thing to list a site that jsut sells a releated product - thats spammy. Its another to list a resource useful for those who will visit this page. —Joeychgo •
Generally, I'd agree with you, Joey, but Wikipedia is not supposed to be a link suppository or suggesting of any sites as being superior to others due to a common degree of neutrality. On non-commercial pages and sites where there is a high degree of traffic then it is certainly of merit for they to be included, but by the same token, only to keep the page concise, to have 20 links is beyond ridiculous. Persoanlly, not using vBulletins much, I can't say that much about it, but I do have to say that using bulletins frequently, the sites presently listed are neutral, non-spam and (again, subjectively speaking, in my opinion) concise and helpful. Most importantly, these, to me, seem to be the most suitably to be listed here on the page, mostly due to overall reputation.
Ba3ed on the same topic, this page really isn't OWN any more (if it ever was) since I don't think anybody from vBulletin is spending as much time updating or tidying this page as the fans and general vbulletin page owners and users do.
Disagree? Let me know.
--lincalinca 09:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)!?!!

[edit] Offical / unoffical links

I've recently been reverting the unoffical links that keep getting added. Why? Because there are tons and tons.. and tons of fan based vB websites. We do not need a list of these 50 websites on the main article page. If we only allow some? Which do we allow? I think that in the long run it will be easier to keep all unoffical sites from this page.--Zachery.Woods 19:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


I'll continue to remove the links untill we get an offical ruling, that or just start adding every other link to every other fan based community.--Zachery.Woods 20:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed directly above:

Wikipedia does not endorse only "official" links for anything (or, at least, it shouldn't). Obvious spam should be removed, but care should be taken to not disallow links that may be useful to readers or which aren't an attempt at spam.

That is the opinion of Locke Cole, a far more experienced wiki then either you or I. Joeychgo 06:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Well if you insist, off to collect every single vBulletin related website, Odd isn't it how you only add your own websites :)--Zachery.Woods 07:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Done, needs some arrangment, will do so tomorrow before church. If its not already done.--Zachery.Woods 08:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Joey, further, you have spamed this page much longer than I've been reversing your pages. My point was its easier and cleaner to disallow all unoffical links instead of trying to moderate or control which links should or should not be shown.--Zachery.Woods 08:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


First, dont accuse me of spamming. I have added a number of sites to this page and made other edits to the article and have been working on this page for a long time. Joeychgo 19:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem to be faced is: how to combine loyalty to one's own tradition with reverence for different traditions. The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with. I have no obligation to add other resources. Only to be certain what I add is a resource. If you have one to share, add it. But please don't edit my entry, leave it as is. Thank you. 71.49.11.104 19:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

According to External links, under the "Links to Normally Avoid" section you should avoid: "A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article). If it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article." So you shouldn't even be adding your own site, you should put it on the talk page and let another Wikipedian decide. And in the above discussions about external links, more people thought it should remain official links only. If no decision can be agreed upon, maybe removing all external links would be the best solution. The most important one (to vbulletin.com) is already in the infobox. All the rest are just extra--at least that's what I think because this fight over external links is stupid. Wikipedia is not a links repository. Rob.daemon 20:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My two cents

Per WP:EL, I believe some additional unofficial links would be covered by this note under "What should be linked to":

Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as textbooks or reviews.

Does this mean the external links section should be allowed to grow into the mess it was a few days ago? No. Occasional pruning, and consistantly checking to see if links pass the Google test are a good idea (in fact, the Google test is a fairly reasonable way of determining if a link is purely promotional; already established sites will have many Google links). Another way of checking is using Alexa to see if the site is known (and if so, if it's popular). I think removing the external links altogether is a bad idea, and similarly, I think limiting it to official links only is a bad idea.

For vBulletin, I'd think one or two links to established extension directories would be appropriate. I don't think links to sites which are "forums for administrators" are helpful (if that's all they have; obviously an admin site that has a directory of extensions/plugins/addons/whatever, a forum, and guides should be considered on the merits of everything it offers).

Anyways, it looks trimmed back enough for now. When it gets to be > 4-6 links, then it might be time to consider what to remove again. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I still believe that the set of links that are listed are directly bais, I've realisticly never visited vBPicGallery, or vBulletin FAQ, being an offical staff member I constantly check over sites from time to time that may have note worthy data to pass back to customers. vBPortal and vBadvanced are also commerical sites that sell products, however these sites have been up for ages and people know them. I used to be somewhat at ends with vBPortal but thats since been resolved. vBFans is just a fan based forum that happens to be centered around vBulletin. I honestly do not find any direct qauiitly in any of the current links. And to Joey, I looked back in the history, at times you were spamming just your link. --Zachery.Woods 09:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


All or nothing Zach. You can't play favorites. I had my site added by someone who thinks it's a useful resource. It's a useful resource because we offer free modifications and support for vBulletin software and the very add on products that you name. I can cite many examples where vBulletin users needed our resource and utilized it as a means to an end when the origial sites failed to be a resource. That fact alone makes the computer help forum and the vBulletin FAQ resource websites that transcend the originals. Others should know they can find help when they don't get help from the original resource.

71.49.11.104


You are right, all or nothing, which is what I've been saying, Either we allow ALL vBulletin related sites that are unoffical, or we allow none. Right now we only have a few. I feel this is wrong, we should list them all if we are going to list one. Who are we to pick and choose which unoffical sites get listed.--Zachery.Woods 18:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

We're Wikipedia editors who want to keep the external links section from growing unchecked? In my case at least, I also believe there's sites out there that likely contain information relevant to people curious about vBulletin, but whose content would be inappropriate (or impossible to include) in this article? It's most definitely not an "all or nothing" decision. (As with article text: we don't let articles grow out of control; if they get too large we either break sections out into their own separate articles, or we trim back what's there to make it more readable). —Locke Cole • t • c 20:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
So then what purpuse does vBPicGallery - Photo Gallery Script for vBulletin Forums serve in the list of links? Its a commercial gallery script. --Zachery.Woods 23:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You didn't add it, however noppid probally did, I'm sure I could do a quick ipaddress search? :)--Zachery.Woods 18:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

So how the heck is it that sites that are either unknown to most of the vB community or are "private" sites not considered to be spam? Looks like it's a case of persistence paying off... if somebody edits their site back in every time eventually it'll be allowed but legitimate sites that are well known in the community got knocked off, eh? 198.23.5.10 17:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is NOT a Jelsoft site

Wickipedia is NOT a Jelsoft site. Only having "Official" Jelsoft links is inappropriate and not the way Wiki does things. Other related and non spam sites are permissible and appropriate to be listed here. This is a knowlegebase and a resource for users, and listing other websites that have information about vBulletin are entirely appropriate. STOP PLAYING WITH THE EXTERNAL LINKS —Joeychgo

Most of the vB sites out there need you to be have registered a copy of the vB software. And as such would not be appropriate to add, it adds nothing to the article if this is the case. If it's a site reviewing the software, that has expansive information that goes beyond what is on the official site, then go right ahead, but please do write on this talk page what you want to add, and why. If you check the posts about this subject above, you will see that this has been the topic of hot debate before. Thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 05:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand. I wrote this because some people seem to think only 'official' Jelsoft sites should be listed. Thats completely inappropriate. —Joeychgo

[edit] this page appears to be suffering from automated vandalism

An anonymous user repeatedly blanks this page. Suggesting immediate semi-protect.--Frenchman113 on wheels! 13:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia - The "v"

It has been stated numerous times ([1] and [2] were the ones that came to mind) that it does not actually stand for anything. Yes, John did run a forum called VB-WORLD but the official position on the name is that the vBulletin wasn't derived from the forum. Rob.daemon 00:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It currently reads that two staff members confirmed that the v doesn't stand for anything. However the current staff member Zachary was not staff member at the time. Does he count as a visitor for that or as a staff member? --Mephisteus 11:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


Want another 'official' response? freddie says.. Freddie Bingham

Another unofficial explanation that is going around is that V comes after U in the alphabet, like vBulletin came after UBB. 83.84.56.163 14:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Version history

I don't think we need an exhaustive list of changes; even the shorter sections for 3.5 seem excessive. æle ✆ 2006-06-03t14:28z

Could be thrown down to the few main things added (multi-quote, infraction system, RSS poster bot, maybe signature limitations) . However since its a page *about* the software I don't see why not go in-depth on it. And seeing as its version history why not give a full list. Thats just my opinion though. --Mephisteus 16:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


Also, the current sitation stating where the "v" came from is down, that thread most likely got deleted.


[edit] v3.6

Do we really need a link to all the beta-threads? Maybe keeping the last one should be sufficient? Tasja 16:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison to Other Forum Software

I'm going through the "internet forum software" articles hunting down what I feel is a useless line that's appeared in some of them. That line is "it is comparable to other forum software such as Simple Machines Forum, Invision Power Board, phpBB, UBB.threads and MyBulletinBoard". I feel the line should be adjusted to "it is comparable to other forum software" for the following reasons:

  1. The previous line which listed many forums is open to abuse. Already the vBulletin article has a list of 5 "comparable" products.
  2. We have the Comparison of Internet forum software article so let's use that fairly comprehensive list rather than starting to list everything in all of the individual product's articles.
  3. My personal opinion is that the line is not required at all (after all, all "internet forum software" must surely have some similar features) but as someone felt the line was required in the first place and we have the comparative article as per point 2, it might be wiser to adjust it instead.

I am making this change to other's as I find them (being bold and all) but as this page is protected, I figure some of you may want to discuss it. Yay unto the Chicken 10:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This might be off-topic, but I'd really like to know if this is a superior package to something like phpBB. It looks nice, has the feel of a real BBS, but costs a lot of money. And I hear the author of the package will chase anyone down who uses an unlicensed copy (how they find out someone didn't pay for their copy I don't know). Is it really worth the buy and is there anything better than phpBB? Insidia 00:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have used phpBB, IPB, UBB and PunPP. Non of them have come close to being as good as vB. Ok, it's got a steep price tag on it, but it's actually very much worth it. Havok (T/C/c) 07:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you my friend. I have been noticing more and more boards using vB, so what you are saying seems to have good merit. Insidia 19:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Off-topic again. I have used phpBB, XMB, IPB (when it was free) and I have a good idea what the others you mentioned are. However, I haven't tried out vB, but as far as I know MyBB would be similar feature-wise, and that's what I have sticked to.

[edit] Unprotecting

This has been protected for well over two weeks now, and there is little or no ongoing discussion over disputes. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 22:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No references

This article fails to cite any references, in particular concerning the history section, the trivia, and the criticisms. As such this article needs to be flagged. User:Mikemill 08:17, 28 Auguest 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why

why is vbulletin-faq on the list ? it isn't offical, and the admin think they are god's.. not something you want to associate with Vb IMO


Read up - this has been discussed and decided.


this site shouldn't be allowed here,, the staff is Not helpful


everyone has a personal opinion. The fact that the site has lot's of vBulletin webmasters using it means it is in fact a useful resource.

So do many webmaster sites,, digital point, adminfusion, among others.. yet you don't list them.. vb-faq isn't a good site, ran by arrogant staff who think they are gods..


Yes, but vBulletin FAQ is dedicated to vBulletin forums - You dont have to like the site or the staff, but that doesnt make it not a vBulletin resource. Clearly your editing is motivated by personal feelings and not objectivity. This issue has been discussed and decided. We list non commercial vBulletin dedicated resource sites here. vBfaq is just that. SO is vB hackers and vB advanced, which is why I added them originally --Joeychgo

Then why stop at vbfaq ? there are a half dozen other quality vb help sites that are not listed.. Do they get listed also ? btw, vBh isn't listed ? and this isn't a matter of personal vendetta —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.142.220.223 (talk • contribs).

Can everyone please stop adding and removing links now? It has been discussed before, and the editors of this article have all come to an agreements about which to keep and which to remove. I am reverting all edits as vandalism and warning you accordingly. Thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 10:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You should add http://forum.vbulletinsetup.com then, the staff is friendly and they helped me with my site even when vbulletin.org wouldn't take time out for a new person like myslef. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs).

If your referring to vB hackers (vbh) - I relist them every time someone pulls them. I agree they are a good site to list. I am not the one who keeps removing things. And for the person who says we should add vbulletinsetup.com, your one of the people who keeps removing links. Why should people respect your suggestions when you dont respect anyone elses? --Joeychgo
so you assume the owner of www.vbulletinsetup is removing your links ? I can assure you they aren't. Even check the IP's if you want. Typical vb-faq stuff though, assume they know it all.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs).
Well, the same IP that is placing the vBulletinsetup links is the same person removing the others.... You can see that IP (yours) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=75.18.13.42 and here you can see your IP removing the vBFAQ link and replacing it with vBulletinSetup: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=VBulletin&diff=prev&oldid=82576623 --Joeychgo
and yet again, your wrong.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs).
Whatever. The proof is right there -- stop playing with the links. --Joeychgo
yet again, your "proof" doesn't mean a thing.. The owner of vBulletinSetup has Never removed any links.. we've only added to.. you know not everyone has a static IP, don't assume with that which you don't know ;).. If your site belongs up, so do a few other vBulletin Resources. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs).
Actually, I just traced the IP on vBFAQ and look at who registered with that IP...... It came back to VBFAQ user Loco.M - and here is the post where Loco.M announced his new board, vBulletin Setup. http://www.vbulletin-faq.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1667 BUSTED Loco. --Joeychgo
??lmao, your so funny.. I've told you that I've never removed any links from here, only added to.. You can think what ever you want, I could care less.. Once again you prove that your " never wrong " attitude can't be hidden. carry on Hitler :D —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs).
Proof is right there for everyone to see. They can draw their own conclusions, but the evidence is clear. Believe me, I wish I was wrong.
W/e slick, I could care less what you "think" what you've posted isn't proof, anyone can spoof an IP, or hide an IP.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.184.226.137 (talk • contribs).
That would break Internet traffic. Unless you're exploiting some security bug in MediaWiki, in which case that's probably grounds for an immediate block. æ² ✆ 2006-10-27t03:01z

Please sign your posts by using ~~~~ thank you. Also, please be civil. Havok (T/C/c) 07:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vBulletin.org

Isn't this an official site? Havok (T/C/c) 10:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

why are the other vb sites removed ? if vbfaq can be up there, so should many other vb help sites..-Brandon

I didnt remove them - someone else put them back though. I cleaned them up and cleaned up the descriptions as well. Can we all leave the links alone now please? Joeychgo 15:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone keeps removing them and I keep putting them all back. Pretty childish if you ask me. Code Monkey 15:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Now we are entering the problem we had to begin with. To many links. Wikipedia is not a link repository. This is the reason we had a really long discussion about which links to feature a while ago. Havok (T/C/c) 17:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think 7 links is to many for the vB page, there are 100's of other vB admin sites that could be listed, Can't we just keep things how they are right now. It still looks find to me. -Brandon ( btw, I made an account here but forgot the name )


There are many wikipedia pages with far far more links than this. So the standards are based on what? There is no problem here other than topdogitis IMO. Code Monkey 21:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That is not an argument. Seeing as WP:NOT states that Wikipedia is not a link repository. The articles of which you speak are irrelevant because they themselves break Wikipedia policy. Take a look at Wii, it has four unofficial links, and the official ones are in direct relation to key aspects of the console. Which is more then enough. vBulletin dosn't need links to all of these hundreds of sites, because they all deal with the same thing. Havok (T/C/c) 08:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, as long as the site is not a commercial site, and it is dedicated to vBulletin and a resource for someone who is considering or wants to know more about vBulletin, the site can be listed. My only thing is that the page doesnt turn spammy with dozens of worthless links. Joeychgo 08:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm starting to agree that this page has way too many links. WP:NOT does clearly state that WP is not a link siet. It's here as an information resource. In my opinion, unless it's 100%, absolutely necessary, any page should only have 3 external links (maybe 5 if sufficient information cannot be derived from 3).
--lincalinca 12:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


For what its worth - look at other pages such as PHPbb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phpbb Numerous links there as well. Joeychgo 00:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, not the point as that article itself breaks policy. Havok (T/C/c) 11:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It was fine, now it seems a few more sites want on.. If you can't have links, then vb.com Should be the only one allowed.. It isn't fair to have one and block out others.. so if you remove some, then remove them all and leave vb.com as the only link. Brandon Sheley

I would suggest you read WP:NOT and WP:EL. Wikipedia is not a web portal or link repository, there are to many external links, and I will start removing them soon. I will keep the ones that have a high output on Google (not the best way, but a start). Oh, and this has nothing to do with what is fair, we can't accommodate all websites about vB, which is why we select a few to keep. The other alternative would be to remove the section all together and keep the official link in the company box. Havok (T/C/e/c) 13:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links (again)

I have removed all links with less then 100,000 hits on Google. I am unbiased in how I did this. If you feel that a link should be there let us first discuss it. There can not be that many links as present before I removed them, it breaks WP:NOT. Havok (T/C/e/c) 12:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


vbfaq has hits from vb-faq and vbw since they merged.. vbulletinsetup will have 100k hits in 2 more months. -Brandon

Im not sure what you meant by hits in google. Might not be the best way - but at least it was unbiased. You'll be there soon brandon Joeychgo 03:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

not sure what you mean by google hits either,, and surely vbhackers gets the same amount of hits at vbfaq - brandon

I did a search for the name of the websites with " on each side. The outcome of the hits is shown in the upper right corner as Results "1 - 10 of about # for search-term". It's unbiased, which is what it should be. And stating "vbulletinsetup will have 100k hits in 2 more months." is beside the point really. Havok (T/C/e/c) 14:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


Brandon, stop playing with the links. Havok has set the policy. Joeychgo 21:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Joey, stop acting like d**k. You only want the link for the PR, and your results are jacked up, since you just added a full site to yours and therefor your results are off.. Havac, you should at least add vbadvanced and vbhackers ! especially if you let a site with such low quality as vbfaq on the site. There is no way either of those have a lower ranking then his.. if so, you need a new way to measure things.. Thanks-Brandon

Its not personal Brandon, stop making it that way. The policy has been set - respect it. Joeychgo 05:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

it may not be personal, but it sure isn't fair.. vbh and vba should be in that last Waaay b4 your site, and why do you keep removing my links Joey.. This listing isn't accurate at all IMO and several others which I'm sure will talk about it once they see there link is gone but the faq's is still placed.. Can you say Kick Back.......-Brandon

I didnt set the policy. Personally, I think vBH should be there as well, and maybe yours. But its hard to think that way when you just disregard any attempt to set a policy because it doesnt suit you. Havok has set the policy. Discuss it - dont just break it. Joeychgo 05:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't set a policy, I'm not the ruler of Wikipedia or this article, feel free to disagree with me, but please discuss the adding of new links. Just don't break WP:NOT and WP:EL. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand Havok, but the method your using isn't fair to all sites.. even on Joey's site he has made several post saying google is broke. You are getting results from 2 sites when you look up his.. Also vb.org shouldn't be under official links since everyone you ask at the .org says that site isn't an official site of jelsolft..-Brandon

First - I started both sites that are now vBfaq - and both sites' content are completely merged - so get off that brandon. Second, I agree Google is broke, and that may not be the best way to seach after something for criteria as to how to list sites here.

Personally, I dont care how many sites are listed here. I only care that they are non commercial, dedicated to vBulletin and not spammy. People come to this page looking for information about vBulletin. The external links are part of that information.

In the meantime brandon, every time you add your link when this issue isnt settled, you just make yourself look even more biased. Joeychgo 19:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

making myself look bias ? actually no I'm not. unless you mean bias that I think your crooked and hold a holier then thou attitude, then yes I'm very much bias.. I'll be adding my site to this page everyday that I see it missing ;) You do what you must, the scale isn't far but hey, what the hell.. might as well use alexa ranging..-Brandon ps. Joey, don't even act like you didn't do the Exact same thing when you wanted to get your link on this page, I only see what is discussed up ^^ there, I wasn't checking this page last year.

Ok, one thing you guys should know. Adding your own links to Wikipedia is very much against the rules. And reverting and reverting like you people do is also against the rules and will end with you being blocked. I have removed your link Brandon, please do NOT add it back. Revert wars are a childish way of trying to get your point across, if you can't discuss it like a civilized human being, please refrain from editing this article any further. Thank you. Havok (T/C/e/c) 22:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Saying "I'll be adding my site to this page everyday that I see it missing" will get you nowhere. Like I stated above, if you continue doing this you will be blocked and banned from further editing anything on Wikipedia. As what you are doing is vandalism, by reverting our reverts you only break WP:3RR which will also get you blocked. So please, just let this article be and stop adding your site to the list. Havok (T/C/e/c) 22:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

oh sure, thats fair.. you let joey add his site but I can't add mine ? Just let mine stay, vbulletin gets sales because of my site.. Having vbsetup is helping you guys make money.. Isn't that what it's all about ? The talk at vb.com shows that to be correct. -Brandon

The point is not to not have your site on the list. The point is the way you keep adding it, totally disregarding everyone who contribute to this article. Even going so far as to vandalizing others entry as well as being a dick about it. If you posted your wish about having the site on the talk page after you where told to, people could discuss the adding of it. Like I stated before, WP is not a link repository and as such we can't accommodate all the sites about vB. I'm not making money on this, I have nothing to do with vB, I own a vB license and I edit Wikipedia, that's it. Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for calling me a dick !.. Stop removing my link, if Joey can have his, then I can have mine.. if you remove our links, remove all of them together, btw.. I haven't vandalized anything, stop putting blame on me for something I haven't done.. I have and will keep adding my site, just like Joey was adding his site, but I haven't touched anyone elses link...-Brandon

1. Push the "dick" link. 2. You are vandalizing seeing as you keep adding something that isn't wanted in the article. 3. Read the policies then come back here. Havok (T/C/e/c) 15:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

your welcome to push your link yourself, I'm not doing anything Joey didn't do to get his link placed, have a good day -Brandon

dmoz. WP:EL recommends it. æ² ✆ 2006‑11‑20t17:45z

WP:EL: "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article." Also, if you read the top, WP:EL is a manual of style while WP:NOT is official policy. I've removed all external links until this dispute has been settled (which I fear won't be in the near future). Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Huh? Please clarify: I don't see how the dmoz link falls afoul of what you quoted. æ² ✆ 2006‑11‑22t16:11z
The point here is; Almost everyone (if not all of you) who are adding links to this article are either affiliated with vB, or owner of the site you are putting up. This is the cardinal rule when adding sites to an external links section, you don't add sites that you yourself own. Also, the reason I am still removing all links is because the entire section is a victim of continued vandalism from the same people every time. So, please, please, can we discuss which sites to add and keep out? As it stands now I feel like I'm the only unbiased one here. Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
(Er... are you replying to me specifically? Your threading is a little confusing.) I'm completely unaffiliated with dmoz. WP:EL does specifically recommend it:
Rather than creating a long list of external links, editors should consider linking to a related category in the Open Directory Project (also known as DMOZ) which is devoted to creating relevant directories of links pertaining to various topics. If there is no relevant category, you can request help finding or creating a category by placing {{Directory request}} on the article's talk page.
æ² ✆ 2006‑11‑23t18:03z

the phpnuke page is very similar and has been left alone, why are the links on this site taking a hammering. products that only work with vbulletin should be allowed. Scotsmist 17:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Because some people are the classic wanabe's that have no lot in life so they sit in their underwear at a computer and terrorize others online. Just because they can.


Havok- I replaced the links -- We have discussed this over and over and I thought we had settled on policies a few months ago. NO COMMERCIAL SITES - meaning sites that primarily sell a product - Now - how do we determine otherwise? Removing ALL the links is no solution. I suggest you have the page locked again until we can reach a consensus. AGAIN Joeychgo 17:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It was my impression that everything was fine as well, until people start to vandalize the article by adding links that are not wanted in the article again and again. Havok (T/C/e/c) 18:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Just a heads up; I have asked for this page to be protected until a consensus can be meet. Havok (T/C/e/c) 09:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I give up, I guess I didn't send Havok enough money to get my site listed.. The measuring system you used is stupid, and I said b4,, Joey is getting results from 2 sites.. Hey howabout I go buy a few webmaster sites and merge them with mine, this I'll pass your measuring system huh !.. forget it, this is a waste of my time, Who would have thought the wiki wasn't fair.. -Brandon

A wiki page about a commercial product that disallows other vBulletin specific products but allows other sites that sell commercial products - go figure. Obviously the wanabes sitting in their underwear have less intention of terrorising anyone than those who dicatate the external links on a wikki page. Scotsmist 21:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

A wiki page should cover the history to. How many of these external links can say they have been around since vbulletin v1.x ? vbPortal has been a small part of vbulletin's history. vbAdvanced may be free but the site sells vbA Links and once sold a gallery script. I suggest that all links are removed until this is resolved.

Vandalizing the article by adding links that are not wanted in the article again and again - is a bit of an elitest nerd attitude to take and unless you own the whole wiki site and have the god given right to speak for this site with regards to what is and isn't wanted by the wiki users then remove all of the links except vbulletin.com until its resolved or its going to get worse before its gets better. Once the page is unlocked it will only start over again. Will you will have something arrogant to say about vbportal having an own wikki page too. Scotsmist 13:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

are you talking to me Scott ? I'll assume no, since I wasn't speaking to you.. One thing I see that you said the wiki is for the history of vB, the links that are up now, don't show this in any way.. My site should be shown just as much as Joeys site.. This is my only argument,, if you remove my site, you should remove his.. Both sites are fairly new ( less then 2 years up )

IMO, the only links that should be showing by your current theory are vb.org and vb.com.. no others..! but if you let one vb fan site, then you must let them all, and don't pick your ranking by some irrelevant measuring system that hasn't even been working correct for some time ( google )..--Brandon Sheley 15:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Again you fail to understand Wikipedia policy, I have told you time and time again to please read WP:NOT and WP:EL. Wikipedia is NOT a link repository, and no, if we allow one site we must not allow everyone. Havok (T/C/e/c) 16:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You know what Havoc, You run a F'd up deal here, There is no reason why my site shouldn't be listed other then you have some hard-on for me.. Go ahead ban me or w/e you can do here.. it's obvious that I wont get a fair listing, You are judging this one some jacked up measurement,, how about I go buy 2 more vb sites and merge them.. then I'll pass your "1,000 hits from google".. btw, how much is Joey paying u to be on his side ? ?? if you remove my link, then take them all down but vb.com,, You did this once and joey went and added his link again,, how is his actions not vandalism ? but mine is... You run a rigged operation here, I don't see how you can sleep at night.. --Brandon Sheley 00:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Brandon - I even agreed with you that Havok's sytem isnt fair. Stop accusing everyone of being involved in a conspiracy against you. Why dont you DISCUSS things and help RESOLVE the issues, instead of throwing a tantrum and flailing accusations. Its completely uncalled for and disrespectful. Why dont you SUGGEST a policy so we dont have every spammy site linked from here. Try to work WITH people? Scotsmist, your product is just that, a commercial product. Thats the primary part of your site, which would be my objection. I would be happy to trade links with you on vBfaq, but I dont think purely commercial sites should be listed here. Joeychgo 06:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Brandon, I never said it was fair, I said it was unbiased. Which - believe it or not - Wikipedia is all about. I don't care who you are or what you own, how many hits you get, or anything like that, I care about following policy on external links, which by WP:NOT is pretty clear; Wikipedia is not a link repository. Havok (T/C/e/c) 10:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey thanks for banning me you flamer ! I don't care about this link, it's very obvious that I don't itch your back like Joey does Havok !. Why don't you pick the sites by google ranking for "vBulletin" ?? it makes just about as much sense way you judge now.. What happen my link was up there just fine for about a month, then all of a sudden it became to many, and mine was picked to remove ? Ya, seems fair, reminds me of something a short little mustache wearing guy use to do to the jews.. Who do I go to report you Havok ? You have no clue what your doing. - Brandon ( I'd do the sig button, but apparently I'm special )

There's no good reason that vBulletin community resources shouldn't be available for people searching for them. The whole point of Wikipedia is to be a resource for people using it, not someplace where people like Havoc can pretend to be God and show off how many e-inches of editing power he has. If I search for vBulletin on google and come here, I want to know where else I can go to learn about stuff for vBulletin. External Links should provide links to useful pages that have information people are going to want. Havoc, you should stay off this page and go pretend to be important elsewhere until you can learn to stop favoring your friends links while denying everyone else. Motivez 15:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There's an obvious conflict of interest here, Havoc. I know it. You know it. Anyone who's spent any amount of time reading this talk page knows it. It's sickening. You DO NOT OWN Wikipedia, OR this specific entry.. so stop acting like you do. I'm personally in favor of reporting you to higher ups because your constant editing is blatantly bias and unfairly promoting friends and aquaintences.

Havoc, if you want actual consensus, perhaps you should stop allowing double standards while the debate is ongoing? You look petty, vindictive, and pathetic by allowing certain individuals to continue adding their pages and then coming here and making up random and ridiculous standards about google's indexed pages. That type of idiocy and bias doesn't help solve anything, it merely exacerbates the issue. You are not fair, and neither are your inane policies. I'm going to officially request mediation if you aren't capable of putting aside your ego to work on solving the issue in a way that is fair to everyone. Motivez 15:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Go right ahead, I have done nothing wrong here. Request mediation, report me do what you feel you must. I'm not allowing double standards, I'm reverting to a previous version of the section which all editors agreed on (read almost at the top of the page). Havok (T/C/e/c) 06:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course you have, you've let your idiotic arrogance get in the way of fair policy. You allow your friends to add their links here, while denying other legitimate vBulletin resources to be added because of a personal grudge. You need to grow up and get a life. It's idiots like you that ruin the usefulness of this site.. Motivez 15:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


Just to clarify, I know non of you, I don't care about any of you. If you read higher up on the page, we had this discussion before. Joeychgo was the last person to edit the external links section, and from what I can see he changed it back to what it was after our last debacle with the EL section of this article. Where actual consensus was made as to which links to keep etc. I'm not a god on WP, and I don't own it, I follow policy, which you people clearly do not. First rule of EL is to NEVER add your own link, and NEVER add your link to draw more people to your site. From what I can read from all your responses above, it's all you care about. I reported you for WP:3RR because you broke that cardinal rule. Feel free to start a straw poll and get consensus as to which links to add. As long as consensus is meet on adding your link, I don't care if it's there. I only remove it because you blatantly vandalize and disrupt Wikipedia to get your link up. Throwing around personal attacks against me because I'm the only person following Wikipedia policy really shows the character of your person. And why don't you listen when you are warned for breaking the rules? You are not above them. If this continues I'm going to ask for mediation, and I will continue to report your rule breaking like I would any other editor on Wikipedia. Havok (T/C/e/c) 06:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

You tell me what I have to do to get vBulletin Setup added ? and I don't want it just for members or visits.. I never said that.. I want the link placed because the whole site is aimed at helping vbulletin admins optimize their site.. My main thread with the most views are tips and techniques on optimizing vBulletin for SEO.

how do I make a poll or w.e to get my link placed ? I don't know wiki at all, I was just happy i found out how to do the sig stamp thing, and now I'm banned for a day so I can't do that.. -Brandon

WP:STRAW. Just remember to include all the links already in the list. Maybe we can get some removed and new ones added. I also think the list should not comprise of more then 5 links + the 2 official links. As we don't want to break WP:NOT. Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

what gets me is that the list was fine for weeks, with my link added.. then all of a sudden, there are "to many links" and mine was removed. :( -Brandon

So, what do I have to do get vBulletin Setup listed ? what is this, you check it 10 times a day when I add my own link, but when I ask a question it goes un answered for days ? Guess I'll just add it again to get your attention.- Brandon

Didn't I just tell you? Read WP:STRAW and make a poll where people can vote for which external links to keep/add/delete. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So other sites can get listed without this Poll but mine I have to set a poll up ? seems a little one sided don't you think ? -Brandon btw, that link doesn't help at all, just says that polls are evil... where is the poll that Joey had to post to get listed ? You can't tell one person to do things one way, but let somoene else slide on by,,

Please add my site as you've proven there is no reason why it shouldn't be listed.. Hell search google for "vbulletin" my site is result #6 past vb.com and vb.org.. so why shouldn't my site be listed as it's obvious that it's a vbulletin help site..

Thanks -Brandon

It's pretty gay that you remove my link within an hr of me placing it, but I can ask a question and it never gets answered. Sorry I'm not the Wiki geek that you are, I don't know my way around.. I looked at the poll page and I didn't see how or where to make this poll,, do I make in right here ? if so,

should vBulletin Setup be listed on the vB page ? if you have never seen it b4, just search "vBulletin" on google and you'll see it. ( yes / no )

is this what needs to be done ? Thanks for the help -Brandon

again my question goes un noticed.. if I added my site, I bet you would answer in a matter of seconds, if I knew who to report your crooked actions to, I would - Brandon

Oppose I don't think your site should be added, seeing as you have purposely vandalized this article just to get your link up there. You have even gone so long as to use sock puppets. And stated on several occasions that you will be adding your link regardless of any outcome and policy in regards to Wikipedia policy and consensus. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

what do sock puppits have to do with anything ? You know what, I don't care, I'm just trying to help out the vb owners, but obviously you have some other motive behind this. You would think the vb wiki would want sites in that help ? guess not.. Tell me, how much did you get paid to be an ass ? -Brandon The only ppl that are going to say anything are you and dumbass joey and we already know how you guys feel. I'm not going to go rally some ppl to say, yes add vbsetup. I simply don't have the time.. I'll rely on admins searching with google to find the help they are after, they sure wont get it if you stay in change havok. - Brandon

ah, just read what you sock puppits says. Dude your so full of it !!! the only time I haven't been signing in under brandon sheley is when you banned me.. and all the other times I've posted with a "-Brandon" after it. I have Never posted as another username ! Yet another lie that you have about me,, whats 200$ get me ? am I your best man now ?? man your lame.. -BRANDON !! ( don't want u thinking I'm "sock puppiting" again )

oh and obviously I wont be adding it unless you stop removing it. so your answer breaks done as 1. he added his site without asking, Look up ^^there joey did the same with vbw and was asking why it was being removed, yet he now has his site up ?? and 2.. this is something you made up ? I never have done this. and 3. This again was pulled from the first remark you made and obviously I can't keep adding it.. So actually you don't even have grounds for your decision..lol imagine that :))-BS

I think we are done here. But, just for your information, please use ~~~~ after all your posts, that way the signature is tagged with a date and time as well. Also, I gave you my honest opinion on what you asked and you start being highly uncivil towards me just because I do not see it your way. The difference between you and me is: I'm following policy, you are not. Havok (T/C/e/c) 10:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

why's this over ? because you say it is ???? ya, your the king aren't you and if you call making up a bogus ranking system to place a link policy and saying I'm doing something that I'm not, a policy then you sir. The you need to pull your head out, because you don't have a clue what your doing here.. and I can't log in to place my real sig,, remember YOU BANNED ME!... Just leave mu listing, you said yourself that 5 links plus the pfficial ones is fine.. It's obvious that you and Joey are the only 2 who don't want my link place.. Next time you think of a bogus ranking system, just search google for vBulletin... Thanks - Brandon

Please show me where I said that I didnt want your link posted - I never made such a vote. --- Ultimately Brandon, you've made your own bed. You refuse to follow procedure and policy. You consistantly abuse others and make accusations which are baseless and unfounded. Your comments are against wiki policy. Havok tries only to bring order to this page and you constantly undermine him and insult him. Your attitude is completely unacceptable and my vote would be to have you banned from wiki for your actions. Clearly your 1 day ban didnt have an effect on you or your behavior. Joeychgo 19:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Joey you did that same thing, how about you and havok both get off my nuts ;) You can see where you're link was removed and you added it anything up top ^ and It's very obvous that you don't want my link here, and isn't ironic how you always place your link right after the .org,, like your site is that good :)) I know this has made me look bad but I don't really care.. Everyone knows about how shady Joey, and the members on your site just haven't found a better site.. If I spent as much as you did on yahoo, ask, and good I would pass you in whatever monkeyfuck rating system that havok wants to use a heart beat. -Brandon

I can only agree that people are pissed off because of the blatant attempt at ownership of the external links on a wiki page - despite what is and isn't policy. I could look up dozens of pages here right now that are have external links on them similar in intent and content to those that have been deleted from this page and for the very reasons stated. A commerical site is not a reason to not be included in external links. It could be argued that all of these sites # vBulletin FAQ: How-To Tutorials and Forum for vBulletin Forum Owners, # vB Hackers: Hacks and Modifications, # vBadvanced: Free vBulletin Portal / Homepage addon, # vBulletin Modder: vBulletin Webmaster Help are not in the interest of vbulletin. jelsoft setup vbulletin.org to discuss addons, hacks, faqs, styles, programming, anything else you can care to mention for vbulletin. The reason that vbportal was not on vbulletin.org for long is due to the amount of support it was taking. It needed more than just a thread and most of you here who have been around as long as vbportal will remember this well, since it was a used on many of your sites for long enough. That's not the point, vbportal is an add-on product for vbbulletin. Links that offer additional features or functionality or in anyway alter vbulletin that other users may wish to know about should be included in a wiki page's external links. That's nothing to do with being free or commercial - vbadvanced sell commercial products right there on their home page for example - the point is sites like vbportal, vbseo, vbadvanced, vbindex, mkportal, photopost even, the joomla link for integration etc. all the stuff that is external to vbulletin but is also integral and needs vbulletin to work but is too big to be on vbulleton.org. Sites that offer hacks and modifications for example are not specific vbulletin external links, they are sites that offer content already catered for at vbulletin.org and in affect are just links that you would find in a link repository. I am starting to repeat myself here, but its as so much as to say that phpportals.com has as much right to be in the external links as any other link there aside from vbulletin's own two links. If there is going to be any more arguing about this then it must be raised to another level and those of you who are familiar enough about how wiki works (havok, joey ?) could do this on everyone else's behalf then once the links are all voted, whatever, and all participants informed when to vote and the result of the vote should then be added and the page locked down for editing. It would be very useful if the external links section could be locked down while the article can be left. If it gets too many links, do what was suggested before and add another wiki page that is not a list of links but paragraphs about all the different sites. If that page gets too big then more pages for different site types with paragraphs for each site and so on. What's the difference if one was to add a whole wiki page or just a little link at the foot of a page whose product is needed and extended on. vbportal doesn't work without vbulletin. Is this a possibilty ? Would someone raise this up to the next level of person to mediate this. If there are no replies in a couple of days time I will add phpportals.com back at the end of the external links. I am not trying to be a feckwit, though it doesn't matter if I am because its not about getting your site listed on a wiki page about vbulletin, its about knowledge Scotsmist 04:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Scotsmist, I agree with everything you said and hope something can be done about this. I obviously don't know anything about the wiki other then how to get banned. vbportal does have just as much right to be listed at vba is, as well as many other site. -Brandon


Scotsmist, I have disagree. My only reason is simple. Your site is designed to sell a product, thats it. That is my only objection. How do we decide your paid hack is acceptable and vbgeek's or vBSEO's isnt? Or a paid skin site. We could have 50 more links tomorrow, all people advertising their products. Reversing that policy would only make the issues worse. I have said before. I have no issue with non commercial sites being listed. Brandon has just been a problem from the get go, threatening other people, making unfounded accusations, removing other links to place his own, etc etc. He works against himself and basically seems as if he could care less about the wiki page, only about his own link. I see sites such as vbhackers, vbfaq, vbmodder and others to be resources for the vBulletin user as they provide help and information on how to do things. In your case Scotsmist, I dont think the commercial sites should be listed, but as I emailed you, I would be happy to trade links on vbfaq. Just my .02 Joeychgo 19:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL@ I've threated ppl,, yeah OK JOEY ! I've never threated anyone or removed any links. What else "have I done" oh king of spam Joey ?? see this is why your worthless Joey, you act like your the man when really, you've just boughten you place on this site.. I can get my "google ranking" up and Havok would place me on the list too if I wanted to spend a few hundred on advertising.. That is the Only ! reason your site is listed Joey, and no other.. Next time please wash your mouth out, because all I see is Sh*t coming out of it. Sure. go ahead and tell some more lies about me guys,, how about talking about the spam joey sends out to other boards trying to get new staff ?? guess anything is fair when you pay enough huh.... -Brandon

[edit] I was done but..

I think this needs to be done. I'm going to report you yet again Brandon; If you want to know why I'm doing this I'm going to give you a few links that you can check out. You have vandalized the following pages:

Not to talk about the numerous of vandalisms you've done on this article as well as one on my user page. Like I said, I'm going to report you for being a vandal, for your uncivil tone, disregard to Wikipedia policy and your sock puppetry. Havok (T/C/e/c) 17:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have reported it here. Havok (T/C/e/c) 17:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

dude seriously,, you need to get over your self.. yes, I added those links, so now your not only in charge of the vb page but all wiki ? You really have some free time ? as for "vandalizing" your page, its the only way I can contact you ! Sorry, I'm not a wiki wiz like yourself. You really have no foundation to even threaten to ban me, you've already banned me actually, I haven't logged in since you banned me, so actually what are you banning me from next ? the Internet ?? Go ahead report me from being a "vandal" maybe I'll talk to someone with some common sense.. -Brandon ps. Please try to get your facts straight.. I've never even seen this page "Dual-layer_recording" yet another fabrication of the wiki world is it ? -Bs

Then I would suggest you go to the link I posted above and state your case if you feel like it. I only see the facts in front of me. Havok (T/C/e/c) 06:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vbPortal

I understand that categorising vbPortal as a commercial site and just that, could be a valid reason for excluding it from the external links. Consider this though. vbPortal is an addon for vbulletin. Wiki is an encyclopedia. vbPortal only works with vBulletin, it needs vBulletin to function. Sites that are already there - vBulletin FAQ, vB Hackers and vBulletin Modder all offer the same content as the two main vBulletin sites do. These links are in competition with the vBulletin istes for traffic. vbAdvanced offers an addon. It offers something that a user may be interested to know about. Wiki does not say that external links can not be to a commercial product. If I looked hard enough would I find vBulletin listed in any other wiki page's external links ? joey - I am not wanting to 'share' links, havok - I am not a wannabe nor sitting in my underwear, vbPortal has been everyting for 5 years. It is not a product that is offered by vBulletin. It extends vBulletin in the way that vbAdvanced does and then adds much much more. Iit is an extensive program as large as vBulletin itself that only works with vBulletin. My arguement is that the fact vbPortal is a commercial product is not grounds for not being included in the external links. joey - I never did get an email from you, but a recipricol link isn't as important right now as discussing the reason for excluding a vital piece of information about vBulletin. We will create an own wiki page eventually. We could update this vBulletin page to include a category about vbulletin.org, its origins, its history, the many sites that have been created since and the various products which have emerged to add to vBulletin. That is knowledge and nothing to do with wanting a link to vbPortal. If vbAdvanced is included then a link to all of the other free vBulletin adds should be included too - that would be fair if the reason vbPortal is excluded is because its commercial. MkPortal for example is free and it does not appear. vbIndex is free and it does not appear, so taking the arguement further, why are the other four site links there ? what are there grounds for being included. How are they justified in being there ? Forget they are not commercial becuase there are lots of other non commercial sites except vbadvanced. forget they offer a resource for the vBulletin user because vbulletin.org is there for exactly that and the three other external links are from their competitior's viewpoints, just spam links for the same reason that a site that only sells a product shouldn't be listed as that is spammy. The fact that vbadvanced is listed may be because it offers a portal - okay well so do mkportal and vbindex and they are not commercial either There are more as well. Either they should be included or vbadvanced shouldn't. If vbAdvanced is listed because it is a portal then vbPortal should be listed since it was the first portal and cms. It should be included in the body of the text why vbadvanced and those other sites are listed. Give reasons for listing them. As has been said about listing vbseo or any number joey mentioned like vbhackers, vbfaq, vbmodder then yes they should be listed for the same reason that vbadvanced is listed or any of the other 3 that are listed - these sites and vbportal are a resource for the vBulletin user and should be listed or a link to a page that does. Scotsmist 03:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Good luck Scott, I'm giving up on this page, it's obvious that a fare understanding will Ever come. It should either be just vb.com and .org or those 2 plus all the other help sites that are established.. The rating system Havok and Joey dreamed up doesn't even hold water, yet if you dare argue with them your "vandalising"..lol screw it, Let joey the spam king win :) -Bs

Disagreeing and arguing with me is all fine. It turns to vandalism when you purposely disrupt the article by adding your link, and when it's reverted by me, or any other editor on Wikipedia, you re-add it. You discussing it here in a civil manner is actually a good thing. I have even asked you to start a straw poll if you disagree with the links. I have no bias towards any links, because if it was up to me, I would have removed all but maybe three of them. So please Brandon, start a poll about it. I have already told you where to go to read up on starting a poll about it. Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm trying to be civil, but I'm sorry, I don't know how to start a poll :( thanks for the help -Brandon

Two people disagreeing with the external links is surely not enough to contest what is regarded as a resource. It would be easy to vote the links in or vote them out with enough determination but the simple fact (I can only speak for myself) I am here, discussing this link and the only two objecting initially where havok and joey. No one else has joined in the talk or returned to it objecting. No one else is replying to any of the reasons why vbportal should be included or why the other links in particular should be included while others should not based on my reasons above. @havok you say that - if it was up to you all but maybe three of them is fine - and I say so long as that third link is to another wiki resource that the other links can be added, I am okay with that too. If its only joey objecting to my adding vbportal and its purely on the grounds of vbportal being a commercial resource then there is no reason to go to a poll since its 1 for and 1 against since havok has no bias. It would be unruley of me to say that Brendon has also spoken out that vbPortal should be added making it 2 for and 1 against (since we are the only people in the talk and have been for a while) it may prove necessary to ask a higher authority. If brendon was to modify the page and add his link he is accused of vandalising the page. The next person who comes along will likely do the same as I did and brendon did and add a link or edit some part of the page as they see fit. I have to also be honest and say that brandon's link has been on this page for a good while (longer than this discussion I am having that's for sure). I know this from my previous visit. The links remained unchanged for a while. The adding and deleting only started when I included vbportal. Then the page was reverted. I am new to wiki and added the link back. I did this a few times before realising I was maybe doing more than just playing devils advocate, maybe there's something I should know. I found this talk page and have been coming here each day along with brandon to get an arrangement where we can have a link on this page. I am in my corner. Brandon is in his corner. joey in another and havok trying to mediate. Perhaps if we called in a wiki mediator we can resolve the issue, by either removing all the links except vb's to another wiki page or we ask for a the mediator to decide about vbportal based on everything I have said in this chat from the first time I posted in it, not just this last section. Havok can not play mediator and keep removing everyone's link and joey can not do this either. It is as fair for me or anyone to remove those other links and leave vbulletin's and take havok's opinion that only three links. I would then create a new wiki page for useful vbulletin resources and add that as a Other Links. I am serious about adding a vbportal wiki page and if that is the case then I see no reason to add a link to vbulletin on the vbportal wiki page, for the same reasons and more why vbportal should not be included somewhere from either a link on this page or a subset of this page with a larger list or the article could be expanded to mention vbulletin.org popularity an how it created such a large interest in modifying the forums and some of the products that have changed vbulletin. Many of the hacks posted at vbulletin.org have been included in vbulletin over time and the hacking community has played a role in establishing vbulletin as a popular forum. This is all part of the information that should be on the vbulletin page. It is not an advert yet it reads like one in a lot of places and lacks some of the information that is also relevant to vbulletin. I can think of lots of reasons for discussing IPB and phpbb on this page which is why its a link at the bottom to Comparison of Internet forum software so a Comparison of vBulletin resources is something readers might want to know or be inrested in knowing. The various characters that have been on the seen and more about the vbulletin community. The hacks and addons and commercial addons (vbportal is not a hack) add to this community and its because of the community that such hacks even exist. If people did not want to know about these vbulletin resources they would not exist. Sure this page isn't a repository for links, in which case non of the other links have any reason to be there. They have no reference in the body of the text and are only there for one reason which is to tell anyone looking up vbulletin on wiki about those sites and "only" those sites and "no" other sites but those sites. I mentioned that I knew brandon or someone kept changing links and that someone has been accused of vandalism, but by that same token, reverting the page back is also an act of vandalism and is also being rude to the person who edited the article in the first place. Rather than just reverting an article because the link added is not one of the "only" links we are discussing leave them or make a subset or another page but don;t hinder the progress of the information that will be available about vbulletin. Joey claims that his site is a vluable resource and so is this wiki page to some people and without the knowledge being hindered it would mean more if it was allowed to grow and be better organised and better sections made up and subsets or a few categories. vbulletin is that interesting that it could take up more space on wiki if it was presented as knowledge and information like an encycopedia. I see no one else here but joey objecting so on that grounds I want to add the link back to vbportal or a vbportal wiki page once it has been added to here on this page somewhere in the links or the article. Its going round in circles and I am not going to take no for an answer when its only joey saying no. it reminds me of the remote control for the tv in prison the way this page is 'owned'. Either add vbportal or I push real hard to have all the other links removed starting on the grounds they have no basis in this page as it stands. they are not mentioned in the page and are only there so visitors are aware of those sites and only those sites and is being done in a way that is neither reasonable, fair or in anyway official other than picking out reasons why the person who edited the page has not done so correctly or by the rules of wiki and in a way to make the person who edits the page look like a trouble maker or vandal.Scotsmist 11:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The thing is Scotsmist, Wikipedia is not a link repository, so why should this article link to all these places? In my eyes it's to late for mediation, I have tried my best to be as impartial as I can, and Brandon's continued vandalism, uncivil tone, and bad behavior has made me take this to the notice board. Worst case scenario, Brandons IP is blocked from editing Wikipedia any further. I only follow policy, which is more then can be said for Brandon. I have no grudge against you Brandon, but your behavior is disruptive to this article, as most of your edits on Wikipedia has either been you trying to explain that you adding a link is not against policy when clearly it is, or you adding your site to the article. I hope this all gets settled and that we can start editing the article in a normal fashion again by adding information that matters. Havok (T/C/e/c) 12:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My arguement this whole time has been the ranking you use to place the links isn't a good system, The only reason I've been suck a "d*ck" about this is that it seems you let some sites be listed and other not based on what ? it isn't this google ranking, because I know several sites that are larger then the ones listed. -Brandon

My system was reverted, and that's not in use as the list stands now dude... Havok (T/C/e/c) 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What system are you using now to place the links showing then ? -Brandon

From what I understand, they are the same links that everyone agreed on last time we had this discussion. Havok (T/C/e/c) 07:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The last time this discussion was had I was not included, well I am know and would like vbportal added or the other links removed for the same reason that this is not a link repository. Quoting havok - """I only wanted the argument to stop by removing what the argument was about until a better solution came along. Havok""". Havok - you are saying it is information that matters - saying vbAdvanced matters because it is free but vbPortal doesn't matter because it is a commercial product is just not adding up for me. It is looking clearly like brandon has some cause for concern that the external links on this specific wiki page are being dictated. Would either you or Joey raise this to a higher level. I do not want to be accused of vandalism, so wish it to be decided by a higher authority than havok and joey instead. Clearly there is something wrong here.Scotsmist 10:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Here is something about vBulletin on another wiki page that is information that is also similar in nature to the vbPortal and vbAdvanced flaming. There is a lot of history between vbPortal and vBulletin - a lot more than any of the other sites listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29. ON the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drupal vBulletin is listed on the page in the article because it has Drupal integrated with vBulletin. This is the kind of information that will appear on the vbPortal wiki page. I am not just intending on adding a link here to vbPortal I am intending on adding vbPortal to the wiki knowledge base. It has been around for nearly 6 years. The product has a lot of history and I am one of the people best to tell it. Scotsmist 10:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC) To quote Joey - """Wickipedia is NOT a Jelsoft site. Only having "Official" Jelsoft links is inappropriate and not the way Wiki does things. Other related and non spam sites are permissible and appropriate to be listed here. This is a knowlegebase and a resource for users, and listing other websites that have information about vBulletin are entirely appropriate. STOP PLAYING WITH THE EXTERNAL LINKS —Joeychgo""" - vbPortal is not spam and is related, permissable and appropriate to be listed here. Once the other wiki page is up I am adding it unless told by wiki not to. If the link is not suitable under secion 4 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to then there is information that is suitable for inclusion in the article such as the flame war between vbportal and vbadvanced and being the first commercial addon, stuff like that. It would then tie in with vbAdvanced and it too could be removed from the external links (just thinking out loud)Scotsmist 10:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tell you what I will not add an external link, but I do wish to add vbPortal to the article once the wiki page is posted. FYI - On that same page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to under Advertising and conflicts of interest - joey shouldn't add his own site to the external links, none of us should. Linking to another wiki page in the article though, does not come under any of these rules afaik. Scotsmist 11:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I brought up the linking to own sits further up, which was ignored by everyone. To be honest, can't we just remove all the links and put up a straw poll as to which sites should stay, it worked like a charm on the Wii article. Havok (T/C/e/c) 12:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


The straw poll thing wont work. It might work today - but what about in a month? Not to mention - what stops someone from calling his buddies to come vote for him - Scotsmist - I didnt mean to infer your site is anything but credibile. Ive said it before - Let sites be listed assuming 2 things - they are dedicated to vBulletin and they are non commercial (meaning that their primary focus is not to sell a product or service) - You may have 7-10 links then and the problem is solved. What we dont need is every skin site, photo gallery, hack site, etc. THEN you will see 50 links and pure turmoil. My way, you have a simple policy. Joeychgo 11:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The wiki page about resolving disputes says that polls are not an ideal way to come to a consensus and I am inclined to agree. I understand that we should not post our own links - it would be easy to ask a friend to post it for us, but I like the suggestion wiki makes about creating a web directory category. I am smelling bull shit here. Joey refers to sites that are not spammy and offer a resource yet Joeychgo signed up to phpportals.com and posted links to his pwn sites shortly after joining, the one and only post ever made on the site which was moved by a moderator to the black hole, where it still is, so don't get me started on why I think its clear that joey has a vested interest here to see that the links do not get changed, and other sites very similar to vbwebmaster are not listed (what is it joey's site offers that vbulletin.com or vbulletin.org do not offer?). Also joey, your site breaks rules that not only are you posting your own link but the page you link to is imho under Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising your front page is all made up of banners. vbadvanced sells commercial products right there on their home page and should not get any preferential treatment over vbportal just because one is a commercial product and the other free. I am prepared to not add a link to vbportal in the external links providing all the other sites are removed. I also intend to add a section to the main body of text regarding the Portal War between vbPortal and vbAdvanced which i then intend to link to the VbPortal wiki page which needs a link to start so its not an orphanded page. Havok - if you are officially mediating this page then I agree that this page needs updated with more relevant information but I do not ever see the problem resolving until some other party mediates it once and for all, set one rule for now and always in the future. I can not prevent a vbportal user wondering why there is no link to one of the most controversial vbulletin addon with a very interesting history, ideal for an own wiki page. Scotsmist 20:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


Havok, you said that the current links are the same as the old ones we had, This is incorrect. Will you please allow vbsetup to be listed. It is entirely dedicated to vBulletin and optimize your vB for guest and SEO. When i first looked at this page there were only 2 or 3 links on the vb wiki page, I'm sure if you look at the google cache you will see something different then what you have setup. Why shouldn't a site that is listed on google first page for vBulletin just under this page we're trying to get on ? I said, I'm sorry for how I was acting, but your system doesn't make sense. If we can agree on a better rating system, I'll stop asking for vbsetup to be listed. -Brandon ps. the cache shows my site, maybe it should be listed :-/ - Brandon


Scotsmist, this isnt about ME - Your site does one thing - sells a product. Your site offers NOTHING to a vBulletin user except a chance to buy your product. Thats it. THAT is my only objection to your site being listed. This issue has been discussed and discussed and discussed. By letting your site on, then next thing we will have is 50 skin sites claiming your here so they should be. Then what do we do? Now - I have suggested a policy - Let sites be listed assuming 2 things - they are dedicated to vBulletin and they are non commercial (meaning that their primary focus is not to sell a product or service) - please explain to me the problem with what I have suggested and suggest alternatives. In other words, be part of the solution instead of just complaining. Joeychgo 11:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
As long as the links section doesn't get bigger then it is now. To be totally honest, there should be one site for each instance of thing, why should we list several sites that deal with exactly the same thing? Wikipedia was not created to be fair, but informative. And Wikipedia is still not a link repository. I'm for adding sites that add to the article, not because it's unfair not to include them etc. Havok (T/C/e/c) 12:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

So, is it okay to add vBulletinSetup back to the list like it was before ppl started removing my link ? It is about optimizing vBulletin, that is it's main focus.. None of the others sites will claim that.. -Brandon

Whether a site is commercial or not has no bearing on the external links or any links included in the article, this is a red herring and one joey is throwing around in a vain attempt to prevent all links being removed including his. Either we come to an agreement and add vbportal which is a CMS and not a front page portal like vbAdvanced (hence a different instance) and its commercial unlike vbAdvanced (hence a different instance again) or else we create a web directory category. If no agreement can be reached then all of the links should be removed, this is not a first come first served - its a repository of information for goodness sake, stop being so possesive of a wiki page - either resolve this or get someone in that can. I do not just intend adding vbportal to the external links I also intend adding a small section to the actual article, but for concerns about being accused of vandalism or coming back an hour later to edit the text and finding it reverted again. Who in this discussion actually has the given right to say what can and can not be added. This page is not the ownership of anyone here, so if we can not agree, someone else should. I am going to add a section about Portal wars. If I add this and it is removed or reverted without discussion first I will not be amused. Scotsmist 14:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

SO basically Scotsmist, what your saying is - you want your way, period. Either your link gets added or all of them should be removed. Is that what im reading?? Your site is commercial. Further, I dont see any value to the 'portal wars' section you propose as it has little to do with vBulletin that is helpful to a reader. Beyond that - anything you post on portal wars is likely to be written in your favor. This seems to be all about free advertising for your product as I see it, and THAT is not what wiki is for. My position hasnt changed. I have no problem with non commercial sites that are dedicated to vBulletin being listed. But commercial sites open up a whole can of worms. And the fact that you cant see that, and call it ared herring, tells me you only care about getting your site advertised, and not about the user. Sorry, im not buying your argument Joeychgo 09:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
It could also be argued that this is free advertising for your site and the others listed. One value does you site or the others add to this article ? What does vBulletin FAQ: How-To Tutorials and Forum for vBulletin Forum Owners do other than take traffic away from vbulletin.org ? what does vB Hackers: Hacks and Modifications do except take traffic away from vbulletin.org. What does vBulletin Modder: vBulletin Webmaster Help do except take traffic away from both vbulletin.com and vbulletin.org. What does vBulletin Setup: Basic vBulletin Tips, Optimization and support do except take traffic away from official jelsoft sites ? All the links offer alternative sites to vbulletin.com and vbulletin.org. vbseo, vbindex, vbportal, mkportal etc are sites that add to the article just like the portal wars adds to the article - your comment joey "anything you post on portal wars is likely to be written in your favor" suggests that you are not even going to wait and see what I actually write but have already made up your mind that I am a spammer. Since it is now only you objecting Joey - lets make a category page instead and remove all but the official vbulletin links, then none is accused of spam or vandalism. A commercial site is not grounds for being excluded from external wiki links, but posting your own site is considered incorrect joey, and from what i have read from this discussion you are making up your own rules while not following written wiki rules. Scotsmist 15:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This has all been discussed. Your just rehashing the same thing and im tired of going in circles with you. Joeychgo 17:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


Joey ! Stop removing my link.. Are you scared of the competition, it's pretty easy to just remove the sites that compete with you.. so whats up ? you jump my ass claiming that I removed your link, and now I catch you ? do you get banned also ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=VBulletin&diff=94390555&oldid=94390484 -Brandon

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