Talk:Vanity press

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Contents 1 Library Controversy 2 Merge and Cleanup 3 $50 per book! 4 Johnathon Clifford 5 "History" deletion 6 Inappropriate tone 7 Self publishing and vanity publishing 8 ABI 9 How to Verify Vanity Publishers? 10 Lulu.com? 11 Is Xlibris or isn't it?

[edit] Library Controversy

I'm interested how the vanity press can charge for copies if they are not even bound. Can anyone give any source on this? How common is this problem? --Daniel C. Boyer 18:21, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is a discussion of that phenomenon in Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum. I don't remember the details, but I think that the publisher pretends to market copies to libraries etc..., but doesn't, and saves money by not even finishing to bind them. David.Monniaux 16:08, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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In some cases librarians will reluctantly accept a vanity publication coming from somebody with the political power to close down the library or from somebody who makes regular contributions of extremely large amounts of money to the library budget. Other librarians will choose to resign rather than accept such publications.

These are some rather extreme claims. Evidence? --203.206.52.13 06:55, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Extreme? On the contrary, we are talking about frequent occurences in small towns with a small library and only one professional librarian holding the fort. There are stories about this in books dealing with library acquisitions methods. And of course, the Library Journal, which is the main publication of the A.L.A., (the American Library Association) has chronicled the phenomenon for sevral generations. When we do our master's in Library Science we have a special course just on the acquisition of materials. One of the main goals of an acquisition policy (but not the only one) is to establlish solid grounds for refusing unwanted gifts. When this crucial policy is flouted, by imposing vanity books or other books (old books usually) which we know by experince that the library patrons will not be interested in reading, the very basis of the collection is imperiled. Of course, the wise librarian will start looking for a job elsewhere, find one, and after that resign while stating as a basis the flouting of reckognized principles in the field of Library and Information Science. --AlainV 13:50, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Be that as it may, you've yet to provide any evidence, only generic references to "small towns" and "some librarians." A citation to a specific issue of the Library Journal to substantiate your claims would be helpful. You present a false dichotomy of librarians either begrudgingly accepting such work on pain of dispossession or resigning in protest. There is a third possibility: the librarian takes the book knowing no one else will ever read it but attended by no rancor. This selective reporting should be indicative of POV problems. Lastly the collections problems presented by donations of marginal works (vanity published or otherwise) belongs more properly to an article on library science. — 207.24.168.10 05:38, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In retrospect I see how it might seem like a dichotomy when in fact there are more than two and even more than three courses of action. I realise now that I have been meaning to give a less anecdotal slant to this and to integrate this in an Acquisitions process article for too many months now. I have removed it from the Vanity press article since it appears in the talk page. There should be a link to a selection of materials article (or Library acquisitions article) but I am still stuck on how to phrase it or how to start it off. --AlainV 16:20, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge and Cleanup

I just merged Vanity publisher into Vanity press. The latter needs a lot of cleanup. Basically it needs sorting into various sub-heading so that the information is organissed. It could probably stand to be trimmed a little too--XmarkX 07:09, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, still seems repetitive. Eclecticos 06:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] $50 per book!

I know this is barely relevant to vanity presses or even to wikipedia, but I was very suprised to see this figure quoted for the processing of a book for a library. I just don't see how it could possibly cost that much. What is involved?

Entering the book into the computer system, making a label and barcode, stamping the book, laminating (possibly) and putting the book in the shelves. Am I missing anything? That couldn't possibly take more than 15 minutes per book at the most. What is driving the cost up so high?

It can take several hours just to catalogue a book if the book is not already in common cataloging databases like OCLC's, all neatly prepared for "copy cataloguing" or "derived cataloguing". And the library pays a certain amount to OCLC (or other suppliers) for the data needed for cataloging. Yes, if we are talking of a book which is already in one of those cataloging databases it can take less tha an hour to catalogue and process the book, but most vanity books never make it to the Library of Congress databases or to the OCLC databases (and some rare books which sometimes end up as donations to the library are not completely described by Library of Congress databases, OCLC et alia) so they have to go through a process called "original cataloging", which sometimes requires hours. In other words a professional librarian (somebody with a master's degree in Library and information Science) has to nearly read the book then look up comparable books on the databases to know not only in which part of the Library classification it will be placed but also what other elements are necessary for a useful description of the book, using both that library's adaptation of rules derived from the International Standard Bibliographic Description and possibly the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules (AACR). Whew! This means heavy labour costs, so big libraries (university, State or national libraries) break up the process among several types of library employees (paid at different scales), with the library clerks (persons with a high school diploma) doing the tagging and shelving, the library technicians (persons with a junior college or tech college diploma in library techniques) doing the preliminary intellectual work and the professional librarians (master's degree) doing the final work and approval of the cataloguing. This "assembly-line" process is usually integrated with the book-selecting and book-buying acquisitions process so donations to the library, wether they are vanity press books or not, can very easily screw thing up completely, unless provisions are made beforehand to treat donations in another process. --AlainV 03:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Johnathon Clifford

The article now says "Johnathon Clifford claims to have coined the term in 1959/1960." I would like a cite -- where does he make this claim? who is he? where does he claim to have used the term? DES 21:39, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

The article actually spells it "Johnathan," but both spellings are unlikely - the name is usually spelled "Jonathan".

[edit] "History" deletion

History my rear end. That was nothing but a polemical screed against the publishing industry. Nothing salvagable from an NPoV perspective, so it's gone. If somebody wants to write a history of vanity presses (which has absolutely nothing to do with the history of independent and self publication), go right ahead. Iceberg3k 04:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate tone

Much of the text reads like a how-to not get ripped off. While scams are noteable, it should be written in an encyclopedic way. Andjam 14:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Self publishing and vanity publishing

It should be pointed out that self-publishing is legitimate: for example small societies, local museums, fanzines and other persons groups produce publications which they know will have small print runs. They are buying a service and know what they are doing. Libraries (particularly the local history sections) may well stock such publications if appropriate.

Jackiespeel 22:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ABI

isn't the "American Biographical Instiute" a vanity publisher?

[edit] How to Verify Vanity Publishers?

I note that every single example of a Vanity Publisher in the list has had "citation needed" added. In the Vanity gallery article there is a useful list of galleries and what they charge, but not a question as to whether they are or are not vanity galleries. While I recognize that publishers do not want to be identified as vanity presses, is there perhaps some way to verify their status? Artemis-Arethusa 16:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I found the source of the list and added reference links to all relevant publishers. Artemis-Arethusa 17:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lulu.com?

Should lulu.com be considered a vanity publisher? They are more in the "print on demande" market, and I think that their business model is quite different from the usual vanity publisher / scam. I've read some genuine praises about them in blogs, so it makes me wonder. -- Hugo Dufort 20:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

They do apear to be a self-publisher, because they chanrge only a commisison, without an upfront payment. Med Publisher 00:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

So should lulu.com be removed from the list at the end of this article (about vanity publishers)? I'm just wondering of course; I don't advocate self-publication. I own a small-scale publishing "house" in poetry (a real one, not a vanity press). A poor lady I know, who has limited talent, spent 3500$ only to get a photocopied spiral-bound "book" from a vanity publisher. This is revolting. -- Hugo Dufort 04:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed Lulu.com. They're a POD self-publishing service; their features are completely different from those of a vanity press and they're very up-front with what they promise (they are effectively a publishing-oriented version of CafePress). You don't go to Lulu because you're looking for instant fame and fortune, you go to Lulu because you're looking for a way to self-publish on the internet. Iceberg3k 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I was surprised to find Lulu in that list. -- Hugo Dufort 23:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Xlibris or isn't it?

Based on various sources of information, I thought Xlibris was a vanity press, but when I added that information to its Wikipedia page it was removed without comment. Frankly, that whole page reads like little more than an advertisement for Xlibris, not a balanced article. So is it or isn't it? Artemis-Arethusa 16:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)