Talk:Vandals

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Zuni girl; photograph by Edward S. Curtis, 1903

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[edit] Miscellaneous

Their name became a byword for meaningless destruction. This propaganda came up many centuries later. Does anyone know, who it was that came up with this and why? I read,that this was started by a 17st or 18st century Frenchmen.

Hmmm. It was generally known that the Vandals had, like the Visigoths, sacked Rome (410, Visigoths; 455, Vandals). In the 16th and 17th century English sources they are usually part of a list (Huns, Goths and Vandals), like Dryden's

Till Goths, and Vandals, a rude Northern race, 
Did all the matchless Monuments deface

I don't know how early it turns into *just* Vandals. It might be earlier in French. I'd hesitate to call it propaganda - just exagerration. --MichaelTinkler

ps: all your base are belong to us

An event mentioned in this article is a June 2 selected anniversary

"In some parts of the West Coast of America, the term Vandal is used as a derogatory epithet for Blacks because of their alleged destructiveness in the inner city Ghettoes of America."

Which parts? According to whom? This sounds shady - I'd like to remove it, is there any justification for this? Mark Richards 21:42, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Mark Richards, could you please provide an academic reference for this statement. Stephen MacCaul

"Their presence was recorded between the Oder and Vistula rivers in Germania in AD 98 by Tacitus and by later historians." Under what name? Not as "Vandals". Someone is jumping to hopeful but unwarranted conclusions I think. Which "later historians?" --Wetman 07:25, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] for future reference

the Vandals in the chronicon of Hermannus Contractus.

  • 406 Wandali, Suevi et Alani trajecto Rheno III Kal. Januarii Gallias hostiliter ingressi.
  • 409 Wandali, Alani et Suevi in die Oct. Hispanias occupant.
  • 418 Pugna inter Gundericum Wandalorum regem et Ermenricum [al., Hermericum] Suevorum regem facta.
  • 421 Constantius imperator Ravennae moritur. Bellum inter Wandalos et Gothos oritur.
  • 427 Bonifacius in Africa pollens duces quosdam contra se dimicantes occidit; contra quem evocatis barbaris mare ad id tempus ignotum pervium efficitur. Unde gens effera Wandalorum, de Hispaniis exclusa a Gothis, freto trajecto Africam invadens, gladio, praeda et igne miserabiliter debacchatur, interfecto prius Ermengario [al. Hermigarius] rege Suevorum, postquam in Hispania XIX annis debacchati sunt. (al. a. 429.) (prototypical "vandalism"!)
  • 434 Wandali jam nono anno Africam infestantes, pactum a Romanis postulant.
  • 435 Pax cum Wandalis facta, data eis ad habitandum Africae portione Aetius Gundicharium regem Burgundionum bello obtinuit, supplicantique pacem concessit, qua tamen non diu potitus ab Hunnis cum gente sua peremptus est.
  • 442 Hunnis Thracias et Illyricum saeva populatione vastantibus, exercitus contra Wandalos missus, ad tuitionem Orientalium revocatur. Valentinianus imperator cum Geiserico rege Wandalorum pacem firmat, Africa inter utrumque certis spatiis divisa.
  • 454 Ipso anno, Geisericus rex Wandalorum, de Africa trajiciens, Romam quia sine imperatore erat, invasit, eamque opibus cunctis exspoliavit. Hucusque Prosper chronica sua perduxit.
  • 465 Wandali per Marcellinum in Sicilia victi, caesique sunt et fugati.
  • 477 Geisericus rex Wandalorum, post XXXVII et paulo plus invasae Carthaginis annos, tandem moriens tyrannidi suae finem fecit. Post quem non melior filius Hunnericus regnavit annis fere VIII.
  • 484 Hunnericus, rex Wandalorum, divinitus percussus, scatens vermibus exspiravit. Post quem fratris ejus filius Gundamundus regnavit annis fere XII, qui non multo post Eugenium episcopum revocavit.
  • 490 Ipso anno Gundamundus rex Wandalorum pacem cum Romanis fecit.
  • 494 Gundamundus rex Wandalorum, persuadente Eugenio archiepiscopo, tandem post X annos omnes catholicos episcopos de exsilio revocavit et diu clausas ecclesias pace reddita aperuit.
  • 496 Gundamundo rege Wandalorum defuncto, Trasamundus XXVI paulo plus annis pro eo regnavit.
  • 522 In Africa mortuo tandem Trasamundo rege Wandalorum Ariano, Heldericus pro eo regnavit annis VIII; qui statim in principio regni ecclesias diu clausas aperuit, et omnes catholicos de exsiliis revocare studuit, et optatam Ecclesiae pacem restituit.
  • 530 In Africa occiso male Helderico rege Wandalorum catholico, Geilamer regnum invadens tanta feritate in catholicos et in omnes debacchatur, ut nec parentibus suis parceret.
  • 534 Belisarius patricius a Justiniano imperatore missus Wandalorum gentem in Africa bello victam delevit, Geilamerum regem eorum captum Constantinopolim abduxit, et Carthaginem reipublicae restituit post annos XCIV ex quo a Geiserico capta est. Geilamer quoque post aliquot annos a Justiniano Augusto comes effectus, et in terminos Parthorum ad eos arcendos constitutus est.


the Vandals in the chronicon of IDATII.

"[]Gallaeciam Wandali occupant et Suevi, sitam in extremitate Oceani maris occidua. Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur.[]

"Cui succedens Wallia in regno, cum patricio Constantio pace mox facta, Alanis et Wandalis Silingis, in Lusitania et Baetica sedentibus adversatur.[]

(Fredibalum, regem gentis Wandalorum, sine ullo certamine ingeniose captum ad imperatorem  
 Honorium destinat.)

Wandali Silingi in Baetica per Walliam regem omnes exstincti.[]

Alani qui Wandalis et Suevis potentabantur, adeo caesi sunt a Gothis, ut exstincto Atace [Addace] rege ipsorum, pauci qui superfuerant, abolito regni nomine, Gunderici, regis Wandalorum, qui in Gallaecia resederat, se patrocinio subjugarent.[]

Inter Gundericum Vandalorum, et Hermericum Suevorum reges certamine orto, Suevi in Nervasi [Ms., Nerbasis] montibus obsidentur a Wandalis.[]

 Wandali Suevorum obsidione dimissa, instante Asterio Hispaniarum comite, sub vicario      
 Maurocello, aliquantis Bracarae in exitu suo occisis, relicta Gallaecia ad Baeticam
 transierunt.[]

Castinus magister militum cum magna manu et auxiliis Gothorum, bellum in Baetica Wandalis infert: quos cum ad inopiam vi obsidionis arctaret, adeo ut se tradere jam pararent, inconsulte publico certamine confligens, auxiliorum fraude deceptus ad Tarraconam [Ms., Terraconam] victus effugit.[]

Wandali Balearicas insulas depraedantur: deinde Carthagine Spartaria, et Hispali eversa et Hispaniis depraedatis, Mauritaniam invadunt.[]

(Olymp. CCCII.) Gundericus, rex Wandalorum, capta Hispali, cum impie elatus manus in ecclesiam civitatis ipsius extendisset, mox Dei judicio daemone correptus interiit. Cui Gaisericus frater succedit in regno. Qui ut aliquorum relatio habet, effectus apostata de fide catholica in Arianam dictus est transisse perfidiam[]

Gaisericus, rex de Baeticae provinciae littore, cum Wandalis omnibus, eorumque familiis, mense Maio ad Mauritaniam, et Africam relictis transit Hispaniis. Qui prius quam pertransiret, admonitus Hermigarium Suevum vicinas in transitu suo provincias depraedari, recursu cum aliquantis suis facto, praedantem in Lusitania consequitur.[]"

[edit] modern vandal versus ancient vandal

Did the more common meaning of the word "vandal" come about because of the destruction the Vandals caused? Or was it the other way round or a complete coincidence? -- Natalinasmpf 03:06, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See my note to the year 427 above:
Unde gens effera Wandalorum, de Hispaniis exclusa a Gothis, freto trajecto, Africam invadens, gladio, praeda et igne miserabiliter debacchatur
"whence the brutalized tribe of the Vandals, pushed from Spain by the Goths, tore straight into Africa, devastating it pitifully by the sword, by plundering and torching"
I do think the connection is obvious... dab (ᛏ) 08:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Most tribal names are given in the plural in the article title. Furthermore, already most of the links link to Vandals, which then redirects to Vandal. I have tried to do this myself, but I don't seem to ba able to do it from the entry on the WP:RM page.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Common term for the people. – AxSkov (☏) 09:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. "Vandal" suggests a language article. --Wetman 20:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support —Michael Z. 2005-09-15 19:14 Z

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • We take it for granted that fixing double redirects is being considered an inherent part of the move. --Wetman 20:49, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Catholics??

In the subsection "Africa" there is a reference of prosecution of "catholics". This is not accurate. During the 5th century there existed no "catholics": the great schism took place in the circa 1050. The point the author of the text is trying to make is the distinction between "canonical" christians and the "heretic" Donatists. I don't know how to name "canonical" christians (Catholics is just plain innaccurate) so I didnt edit it. If anyone knows the proper name to refer to "canonical" 5th century christians, please edit. Michalis Famelis 22:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

The term Catholic(katholikos from katholou -- throughout the whole, i.e., universal) is first recorded in the 2nd century AD(in refernce to Christianity and the church that is). And later in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD becomes a word of distinction for "canonical" churchs. Noteably among the greeks.

In the "Catechetical Discourses" of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 347) he insists on the one hand (sect. 26): "And if ever thou art sojourning in any city, inquire not simply where the Lord's house is--for the sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens, houses of the Lord--nor merely where the church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of the holy body the mother of us all.

St Augustine even defined the Catholic Church in 397:

n the Catholic Church ... there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

So a refernce to the persicution of 'Catholics' in the 6th century isn't wholly apocraphal. Though if the average church goer called themselves as such is questionable. The term Catholic was't some magic invention bred from the Greet East-West Schism of 1054. Conversly neither was "Orthodox." Orthodox meaning 'right beliver.' Both existed long before the schisms of the 9th and 11th centuries. -Than

[edit] Vandal physical characteristics

I wonder what the ancient Vandal civilization would look like. Would they look Asian, like Mongols or Huns? or Germanic? Norse? North African? or some mix? does anyone have any information that we could add to the article?

[edit] Andalusian dialect

“Some traces may remain in Andalusian dialect, the southernmost group of Spanish dialects,”

Can someone say what traces are these? Could you give some examples?

[edit] Delisted GA

This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 09:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Failure of African kingdom because of "lack of religion and racial unity"

Article notes: "the African kingdom of the Vandals soon began to decay from the lack of religion and racial unity between the two populations". Can we have a reference for this? Supporting evidence? Sounds like this text has been dredged up from some nineteenth century text book! feels like unsubstantiated rubbish. If the kingdom fell apart because the people didn't believe in God, then give me evidence. If the kingdom fell apart because of racist factionalist fighting, give me proof. Otherwise delete this section. It sounds very shakey and unproven to me --mgaved 09:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree. There's very little internal information on the vandal kingdom in North Africa.--Wetman 10:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I understood the line as "lack of religious (unity) and racial unity." Still needs source, though.

[edit] New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

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  • Good coverage of topic.
  • Needs infobox.
  • Needs inline citations.

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[edit] Roland Steinacher ?

Roland Steinacher in his (2002) 200+ pages paper not even tray to sugest that names Vandalia and Vandals are not similar. As suggested by editor

Welshes names Hallingdal or Vandalia are more similar to name Vandals?

a) Similarities of names have suggested homelands for the Vandals in Vandalia, ...
b) Similarities of names have suggested homelands for the Vandals in Norway (Hallingdal), ...

Another obvious false statement by Friendly_Neighbour Who wrote No, the name "Vandals" for Wenden is a late medieval misconception.

 796 - 476 = 320 , 1453 - 796 = 657 , 657>>320.

Friendly_Neighbour cannot see that number 600 is slightly bigger than 300. Nasz 09:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Can you say what are you trying to prove here? Especially with the numerology? I gave a link to a whole PhD thesis about the perceptions (and mis-perceptions) of Vandals from Middle Ages to 18th century (the same author later made a journal paper from the thesis but it's not available on-line). Already in the preface he writes Mittelalterliche Autoren verwendeten auch die Form Wandali für die Slawen/Wenden. Dieser Namensgebrauch konnte in der Forschung bisher nicht zureichend erklärt werden. Ziel des zweiten Kapitels dieser Arbeit war es, eine Erklärung für dieses Phänomen zu entwickeln which means "Medieval authors used also the form Wandali for the Slawen/Wenden. This name use has not be explained in the research so far. The goal of the second chapter of this work was it to develop an explanation for this phenomenon". What else do you need? If you do not know German you may help yourself with Bablelfish copying and pasting fragments from Chapter Two from the file to an on-line translator. Friendly Neighbour 11:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
If you will use Babelfish be careful about the word "turns" which is a mis-translation of "Wenden". But the end result is not bad. I'll give here a fragment of page 113 translated with Babelfish with only minimal stylistic corrections by me: "The equation Wenden = Vandalen comes from the difficulties to classify the ethnic landscape of Eastern Europe in the early Middle Ages. It was formed before the time, when the ethnogenese of the Slavs in the East had reached a stage, which showed her as groups with a specific identity". Which probably closes the Wendan = Vandals idea. The only mistake I made was writing that the mis-conception comes from late Middle Ages. I should have written early. Sorry for that. BTW, did the numerology part of your edit have something to do with this? Friendly Neighbour 11:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
F: Can you say what are you trying to prove here? Especially with the numerology?
N: I just showing you, that you are misleading. You wrote, your quote: 'No, the name "Vandals" for Wenden is a late medieval misconception.
this is not late medival. Do you see it now ?
Do you want to now say?: Ok is not late medieval. YES/NO ?
If not could you more elaborate on Why so many medival kings and historian were wrong << according to 2002 Phd thesis , thesis even published in a journal.

I think it will be also productive if you redefine concept of HISTORICAL SOURCE.

Nasz 10:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 12, 2006 edits by Nasz

I reverted the edits. The reasons are multiple:

  • The style of In 2002 Phd student wrote that medieval authors are wrong is clearly unencyclopedic (bad grammar of the sentence is easy to correct but it still would not be a encyclopedia compatible text).
  • The whole PhD thesis referred is about the ideas about Vandals published between the Middle Ages and 18th century. Saying it is about "medieval authors" that "were wrong" is a inexcusable oversimplification.
  • the reason for adding the wiki-ling aiming at Polabians (which is a which is a disambiguation page!) and showing Lusitians who are only one of the three Polabian sub-groups is very hard to fathom.

Nasz, I asked you on your Talk page to do your own research before editing. Your answer was to blank twice my edits. I also asked you twice not to reply on my Talk page. You ignored my request. In fact you followed it but only by chance: you've put your answer on the Talk page of a dead account ;-) I found it only by checking your contribution list. Friendly Neighbour 13:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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