Talk:Van Resistance

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Contents

[edit] started copy editing this article

I started copy editing this article. But then I realized the references are all screwed up, Also, the article is a stub, and I am not familiar with the history of this area so cannot easily expand upon it as it desired. Mattisse(talk)20:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] By H. K. Vartanian `The Western Armenian Liberation Struggle', 1967, Yerevan

Does this book exist? Those references are improperly written accorking to Wikipedia policy. See link below. I like this Armenian article and think it deserves to be done right.

Mattisse(talk) 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copy edit tag removed

The article is much improved and currently does not need copy editing. Mattisse(talk) 22:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not correct to have commas in headings

See

Mattisse(talk) 15:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe you are right about commas in headings

I'm checking with Wikipedia. So far they said that commas are O.K. in some cases, like in official battle honours, ie "Somme, 1916". So it is probably right in your case. Mattisse(talk) 16:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copy edit tag placed on article

I tried to fix the intro to at least correct the punctuation and grammar. It is not good to use the passive voice, because the reader cannot tell who is doing what. I made guesses and my guesses may be wrong.

The rest of the article has degenerated in terms of correct use of the English language and so needs copy editing.

Please provide me with any information or feedback. I am very open to all suggestions. Mattisse(talk) 13:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tried to fix the intro again as I can't figure out what movement you are refering to

I tried to figure out from the subsequent text what you meant, but I may have gotten it wrong. It's hard for me to understand what all the terms mean in trying to copy edit this article. Mattisse(talk) 13:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The complexity arises as different sources use different terminology to the same events. Depending on the event (time), you could do nothing but use the original terminology. Simple example: Ottoman based sources do not want to accept any terminology related with "provisional goverment", so they say "Lake Van". Obviously they are not talking about the aquatic life, they are talking about what Armenian sources might say "first republic of armenia", as a representation of their national goal. However, the same thing also named as "western administartaion of ...". If you look at the persons, they are talking about the same people, same armed force. There are couple of issues like that. Whole Russian army dissolves in couple of weeks. Why? Current studies open these issues, with adding new terminology to explain the problems in the previous assumptions, such as who was in real power. I'm sorry that this is the nature of this thing. --OttomanReference 14:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Things do not come-up by themselves, such as "ADR", or "western ..." administrations, there is an organizational source behind these activities. Armenian Revolution is a partial story of this region. There are couple different stories are going on at the same time. There is a military story under WWI, there is another story under ADR, and they all run in parallel, reader has to be clever to unite these stories. This period was named as the war that will end of all wars for no reason. --OttomanReference 14:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

One another thing, Armenian Revolution is very interesting as these people fought against nearly every known force of its time to build a nation. To reach their goal they did everything; such that they have even sided with the enemy that really ended their dream. It is astonishing. --OttomanReference 14:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various

1. I've tried to copy-edit this article into some semblance of order, but it really needs someone who knows the period.

2. Added and deleted "the" on numerous occasions.

3. Reduced the number of links.

4. Reduced the number of "Democratic Republic of Armenia"s - too cumbersome.

84.130.73.85 22:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revolution?

Most of the information on this page is spurious. Nearly all German diplomats including Morgenthau himself, attested to the fact the revolution was intentionally provoked by Turkish authorties who attempted to convey it in an atmosphere as a revolution for a pretext for the Armenian Genocide. The title itself requires changing and itself has too many POV problems with not enough page citations and treats everything as certainty.--MarshallBagramyan 18:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've renamed this article the Van Resistance as it more accurately describes what the conflict really was. -- Clevelander 02:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The background of the events

First footnote, refers to the roots of the revolutionary parties. It cited the sentence: The Armenakans, Hnchakians, and the Armenian Revolutionary Federation members already had extensive organizations in the Lake Van area, and two other empires in the region [1]. Thanks for reading.--OttomanReference 01:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

True, but the footnote was referring to the 1890s and not 1909, you can not use a reference of the 1890s, when the revolutionaries were effectivally removed by the Hamidian regime, only under the Young-Turk regime, were they partially reborn, and it was the Young-Turks who were responsable of that, since those same 'revolutionaries' were used to help reverse the Hamidian regime. You can not just dump footnotes, without taking in account of what those footnotes really refers too. Fad (ix) 15:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"and in small towns began a local uprising with pitchforks, wrenches, pipes, and other makeshift weapons". that is so funny...neurobio 23:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Revolution" should be deleted.

I was redirected here from the Deletion REquest page on this article. I am not sure it should be deleted, but the title "Armenian Revolution" should definitely be. There should not be any such title even redirecting to this article. The term used by contemporary German officers, as well as scholars, is "Van uprising," or "Van defense." "Armenian revolution" is a Turkish POV, and a very small minority at that--it should not be taken as a fact and title. Doesn't matter if some of the local leaders had been revolutionaries before--it was a desparate act of self-defense against Ottomans.--TigranTheGreat 00:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ultimately unsuccessful"

This phrase is Turkish POV. Armenians consider it very much of a success--they resisted, and survived, unlike the rest of Armenians in Turkey. I am not saying we should put "successful" instead in the intro--we just can't take the Turkish POV as fact. Even contemporary Austrian officers observed that the uprising's goal was survival:

The Austrian Military Plenipotentiary to Turkey during World War I, in his memoirs, characterized the Van uprising as “…an act of desperation” by Armenians who “…recognized that [a] general butchery had begun in the environs of Van and that they would be the next [victims]”. http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436--TigranTheGreat 00:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this article serious???

The background part says:

Before 1915 many Armenians lived in Western Armenia. The Ottoman Empire had tyrannized the Armenians since the 17th century. In the late Ottoman period Van was famous for its Armenian silversmiths.

How many? What is Western Armenia, is it a dream or reality? What are the tryannizing acts since 17th century? Who says Van was famous with those?

Come on, is this part a farce, propaganda or actually an encyclopedia article? Where are the sources, numbers, references? Please at least correct - if you still want to keep it. --Gokhan 08:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gokhan, would it please you if there is a link to History of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, this way if there is a misunderstanding it can be refered to its main article. --OttomanReference 12:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That's better off course. Still the wording seems POV and childish to me. When is this "late Ottoman period"? 1910? 1890? 1922? How "many" or what percentage of Armenians lived in this "Western Armenia"? This morning I had to correct one article stating Şampiyon was famous, because some guy put a deletion tag and wrote "famous for who?"... Anyway. --Gokhan 12:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Late Ottoman period is obviously 2nd half of 19th c-1918. 2 million Armenians lived in Ottoman Empire before 1915. I say that's "many." The area was always called "Armenia" before 1923. Even now, World Book Encyclopedia and Atlas have "Armenia" over eastern Turkey.--TigranTheGreat 22:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

OK it's good to see that the related part of the article is now corrected to contain some facts. --Gokhan 14:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Call for voting (totallydisputed tag)

After numerous edits by our Armenian friends, I would like to ask for the removal of totallydisputed tag.

  1. Accept --OttomanReference 07:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose -- oh, it still has alot of work to do. Virtually every single paragraph. --TigranTheGreat 08:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose Fad (ix) 22:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose. Needs more work. -- Clevelander 22:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  5. Accept neurobio 17:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pic

Ottoman, why was the picture removed? It is found in the archives.--TigranTheGreat 08:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Do not blame me! :-) I could not figure that out (why someone do not like the wording "local defense line" especially most of them in daily cloths) plus the logic of other things (considerations other than the history, I guess) that is happening on this page. If this would be my history, I would not be reckless on my heroes. Whaetever. --OttomanReference 19:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed it because I thought that it came from the Battle of Van and not the Van Resistance. -- Clevelander 22:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman, could you please type the entire passage from Robert-Jan Dwork Holocaust: A History by Deborah and van Pelt, p. 38, that talks about the 1st Armenian Republic? This doesn't sound right, but I want to see where it's coming from.--TigranTheGreat 20:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere on that page it talks about the first Armenian republic. It does indeed talk about the Armenians. It first talk about Max Scheubner, it also quote from him. Then talk about the ten commandments of the Ittihadists and the Turkish government plan of destruction of the entire Armenian community. Then, the only thing which is the closest to what Ottomanreference attribute to that page is this following passage: Through the use of centralized planning and modern communication systems, all Armenians were to be assaulted. For the Turks, the sole question was: When? They did not have long to wait. In spring of 1915, Russian troops invaded Turkish territory following a failed Turkish offensive in the Caucasus. Sensing the opportunity, nationalist Armenians established a provisional government in the Russian-occupied era. Here was the proof of the "internal enemy" the Turks had long claimed them to be, and Enver Pasha, the Turkish minister of war, did not hesitate to... Then the rest of the page relate to the destruction of the Armenians. This is also another example of a footnote not supporting the text it is supposed to source. Fad (ix) 21:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The book is at the state library; I have a very short note. It says; "page 38, the setting of the provisional government". It was in the introduction section of the book about Holocaust (Jews) and talking about WWI in general. Next time; when I am at library, I will get the text. But if there was more than this, I would have it in my notes. --OttomanReference 21:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turks taking Van

OR, can you tell me where you got this info?

The Ottoman army arrived outside the city on the 15th of August. On the 16th, it began a bombardment. On the 19th of August, the Turks entered the city and, after a two-hour fight, decisively defeated the local units and destroyed the garrison.

From what I know, Russians retreated with Armenians on July 2, then came back a few days later and stayed. Turks entered the deserted city without firing a shot. Where is this Turkish victory of August 19 coming from?--TigranTheGreat 23:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

When I found the document, that sentence was there. So, I do not know where it came from. Also check the battle of Van the argument seems to be repeated there, which has a reference at the end. I believe your version is more close to be correct. I have a source that claims most of the fighting force was on the mountains. However, you have removed the Turkish sources, would you believe if I gave you one? Let’s look at the sentence. The so claimed "Two hour fight" in the context of 1915 could be easily mean that "without firing a shot" for Russians. You know it is not only Ottomans who were biased. :-)--OttomanReference 01:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Turkish reference since it was wildly different from two non-Turkish, non-Armenian figures--C. Walker, a British historian, says 1,300 (relying on American Usher), Morgenthau says 1,500. Turkish source presumably says 30,000 (and considering that some sources have been distorted on this article, I don't know if the Turkish source says that). The article made it sound like the Turkish estimate was the correct one, which obviously was non-neutral.

But, if you have a Turkish book that says when they entered, and whether there was a battle when they entered, that's a start. If we find a neutral source, we will use the neutral numbers.

By the way, for Jevdet Bey, here is the reference: Christopher J. Walker, Armenia: The Survival of a Nation" p. 205-211 (he also mentions Armenak Yerkaryan as the leader of the defenders). You can put it either in the paragraph, or in a footnote--your choice.--TigranTheGreat 09:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

OR, I checked Battle of Van, there is not a single reference there. --TigranTheGreat 09:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I've started working on the article

Will be reviewing all the footnotes etc., also I will be loading in a subpages the three relevant chapters of Ussher work. Davison should also be added. Probably the article will be nearly all rewritten. Fad (ix) 22:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, the three relevant chapters are here. [1] Ussher was there in Van at the center of the siege and had various discussions with its governor. Thosefor hw was a primary source. Fad (ix) 22:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Society of Free Armenia

Does anyone know where the info about this organization is taken from? Sounds dubious.--TigranTheGreat 11:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, Armenians were not the majority of the population in Eastern Anatolia, they were prior 1829, but from then to 1896... the Armenian population ended up to be a minority. Fad (ix) 01:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I never added any data about the population. By the way, they were a relative majority--more than any particular ethnic group (though less than 50%). In the Van province, they were actually a majority.--TigranTheGreat 08:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, we should not mix Van central city and the rest of Van. Lets just say that Armenians along with the Kurds were more numerous than Turks in Eastern Anatolia. Fad (ix) 12:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, my edit does say kinda the same about Eastern Anatolia--that Armenians were a relative majority.

CJ Walker says in the Van province Armenians were absolute majority--since the events included the entire province, why not state that?--TigranTheGreat 18:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, mainly because Walker is wrong. :) There is no way of getting a reliable statistic for the province of Van, what is certain is that compared to Armenians and Kurds, Turks were a minority in Van. Fad (ix) 20:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, Armenians were a majority on the central city, the Heartland of Van, there are plenty of records to support that. Fad (ix) 20:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What did the governor, Jevdet Bey, do that was so upsetting?

As a new person, I am trying to understand this article. The initial paragraph should state clearly what is going on. But I can't tell. I know everything in this article is controversial because there are two sides to the story. But still clarity, not vagueness, is the way to go in my opinion. Surely there are some facts that can be agreed upon. Mattisse(talk) 01:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Hope I am not stepping into a minefield. Mattisse(talk) 01:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The total killed up to the relief by the Russians is generally believed to be 55,000. Do not change. Also, we know why the rose up - to protect themselves against massacres and deportations. Ottoman reference is POVing this article.

[edit] User user:Hetoum and its It is suspected a sock puppets or impersonator

The article has been under the attack of this user and deleted many sections of the document.--OttomanReference 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

user:Hetoum recent edit to Van Resistance (diff) was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept my humble creator's apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // AntiVandalBot 19:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

user:Hetoum's edits to Van Resistance is deleting the content that is worked hard on by both sides of the issue. Your understanding of the concept is limited. The article is intended to explain from the begining to the end of the movement 1915-1918 in this region. Please stop this activity. If you want to add information that we can verify you are welcome. --OttomanReference 02:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My Reversion on the van article Hello. The reason why I deleted more than half of the content of the Van Resistance article is because it was off topic. The Van Resistance should deal with the start of hostilities from the start of massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks to relief by Russian Armies. If you want to push it, the retaking of Van by Ottoman Troops and the second capture by Russian troops can be included. The rest is pretty much off topic and needs to be incorporated into a different article. You can ahve a background summary leading to a main article, and summary conclusion. Also, try to use correct grammar when writing articles, and use proper English pronounciation of Armenian names instead of the Turkish ones, as you did on Armen Garo's page. : ) Cheers, (Hetoum 16:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC))

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:OttomanReference"

:user:Hetoum's editions deletes the information regarding:

  • WHO ARE THESE HEROS (Fedayee)THAT SAVED THE PEOPLE?
  • WHO IS ARAM OF VAN, why is he a hero?
  • WHAT HAPPANED TO Fedayee? (Did resistance become part of a bigger goal (DRA)?, Did they quit being a freedom fighter and wanted to be part of Ottoman Empire?
  • Why are we finding the names of these Fedayee in the documents of Treaty of Serves, why Wilsonian Armenia and these names are being linked?
  • Did Fedayee save any Armenians when the Ottoman came back in 1918?
  • Did they all die? If they died how did they died?
  • Did Armenian HISTORY IN THIS PERIOD HAVE ANY ACHIEVEMENTS?

:user:Hetoum claims he is an Armenian. IF so, he does NO respect to the ARMENIAN RESISTANCE (Aram Manougian, Andranik Toros Ozanian, Drastamat Kanayan, Garegin Njdeh, Hakob Zavriev and Simon Vratsian). He acts like HE HATES ANY ARMENIAN ACHIEVEMENT, and want to wipe out them from the history. If it is o.k. with other Armenians, Ottomans REALLY DO NOT CARE.


Can someone tell me how 55.000 people were killed in one day? (a-bomb killed 70.000 in Nagasaki)especially while the whole population was less than 200.000? and why Cevded decided to exterminate armenians while a Huge Russian Army was on its way to attack the region? How did armenians after loosing 55.000 people fought of the organised army (capable of killing thousands) with pitch forks (if there were any army). Where did these massive Turkis army came since the eastern army was destroyed in sarikamis? why do Otoman documents are full of Cevdets call for help and warnings of an Armenian out break? Why people are still using Morgenthau as a source in these issues when it is known that he has never been in the area, his personal diary clearly contradicts with his book and as he said his book was written by his armenian helpers and then edited extensively by the propaganda bureu members? Why do armenian testimonies cleary describe weapon amasment and preperations in Van if it was a self defence? Why do all unsourced "it is said that he said that" type quotes always talk about extermination? neurobio 01:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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