Talk:Valkyrie (Norse mythology)
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Wikipedia articles in the field of mythology are always improved by specific references to the actions of characters in specific myth literature, along with enough analysis to explain their nature in that particular context. In which Icelandic eddas do Valyries figure, for example? Utterly generic Valkyrie imagery also includes Bugs Bunny in drag, after all, beer advertisements etc,and is less focussed...Wetman 05:29, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
If you can read Swedish, I suggest you read that version. It gives references to Snorri Sturlusson. I have been moving info from that version to the English one...Wiglaf
Shouldn't the valkyrjur and other mythological characters be referred to, at least in parentheses, under their original names, e. g. Skuld (for "Skulda"), Skǫgul (for "Skagull"), Óðinn (for "Oden") etc? I'd be more than willing to supply them, but it would be quite a job to hunt their occurrences down, possibly bruising some egos along the way. Is there a Wikipedia policy on original vs. commonly used name forms? (Forgive my ignorance, but I'm new to the Wikipedia, and yes, I have read the FAQs, but still, it would be nice to hear how it would be received.) Io 12:53, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Removed "Gunn". Gunnr and Guðr are one and the same. Io 12:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
You should fix the link too. Now it is red. About your previous question, I believe you're right. The naming is a bit arbitrary. Just look at Baldur where you have the modern Icelandic form, whereas most people would use the form Balder.Wiglaf
- Done. I'll supply the standardized forms in parentheses, when time permits. Io 12:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
On the other hand, there was a reason why Scandinavian scholars modernized the names of Norse mythology, Io. If you take the nominative form "Guðr" the accusative form would have been Gunn. Gunn is the modern form of the nominative in Scandinavian, and also in English (the word gun is derived from the Norse female name). Is there a Wikipedia policy on this? Personally, I DON'T like modern icelandic forms because I am not used to them, but I don't go changing Baldur into Balder because of that. Whatever form we have, all people won't be happy. Since Wikipedia is intended to be a work of reference, I think the best naming convention would be "most common English form, or Scandinavian form in the case the deity is less known". Wiglaf
- I know, and I agree. I definitely was not about to alter the entire system. What I meant was that it would be helpful to have the standardized (Old Norse/Icelandic, *not* Modern Icelandic) forms along with the more or less random forms which the various authors have used, probably depending on which book they have read. Taking Baldur for instance, my personal preference would have been to have his article named Baldr with redirects from other spellings. Since it is not feasible to coordinate the entire field, the practical thing would be to leave the articles as is but add something like (Balder, Old Norse: Baldr) to the introduction. Same with other characters. I think we are in agreement here when it comes right down to it. Just one thing: I wasn't aware of there being any standard for those names except for standardized ON. The list of the valkyrjur doesn't look particularly consistent for instance. Cheers Io 11:50, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't think there is a standard at Wikipedia for naming in Norse mythology. Perhaps we could start a discussion at Wikipedia naming conventions :). Wiglaf
- I have altered the articles for Baldur and Valkyrie to illustrate what I had in mind. Do you think this would be acceptable? I'd be glad to hear an opinion. (A small correction to your comment above: the accusative of Guðr is Gunni, not *Gunn. I know, I know, I'm a nitpicker. ;-) Cheers Io 15:00, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Alaisiagae
A question about the Alaisiagae. Where does the name derive from, and who were they? From what I can tell, it's a latinized word describing some group of Germanic goddesses, but the article Alaisiagae says:
- In Norse mythology, the Alaisiagae were war goddesses, similar to the Valkyries.
As far as I can tell, there was nothing particularly Norse about them, and the name is utterly unfamiliar to me, at least. Wiglaf, do you know, who they were? (My Latin isn't up to scratch, and it's been a long while since I've read Tacitus, so I may perhaps be forgiven.) Cheers Io 18:10, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Alaisiagae don't belong here. See the following link: http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/british.html#Alaisiagae --Wiglaf 08:48, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I removed "generally held to be daughters of Odin" as suppositious and added a statement that no text gives the origin of the Valkyries. I've added Wagner's account at the end. That Wagner makes his nine Valkyries to be daughters of Wotan is likely to be the source for any such beliefs as may exist.
I also removed "Any maiden who became a Valkyrie would, generally held belief states, remain immortal and invulnerable—as long as she remained a virgin." I don't think this is "generally held belief" and it is certainly not found in extant texts. It feels like a modern literary combination of the Nibelungenlied Brünnhilde with the Norse account.
I also removed: "The Valkyries also acted as Odin's messengers. Their armor, while doing his bidding, was thought to have caused Aurora Borealis." Who thought this? Where does a Valkyrie appear as a messenger of Odin?
For now I have kept:
In the field they are always in complete armor; led on by Skuld, the youngest of the Fates, they are foremost in battle, with helmets on their heads, armed with flaming swords, and surrounded by lightning and meteors. Sometimes they are seen riding through the air and over the sea on shadowy horses, from whose manes fall hail on the mountains and dew on the valleys; and at other times their fiery lances gleam in the spectral lights of the aurora borealis; and again, they are represented clothed in white, with flowing hair, as cupbearers to the heroes at the feasts of Valhalla.
Most of this is obviously modern literary invention. "Flaming swords"? "Shadowy horses"? "Fiery lances"? "Clothed in white"? This should be replaced by what can actually be dug out of the old texts. Or, if a source can be found, then the source cited as a modern romantic interpretation of the Valkyries.
Jallan 03:40, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
[edit] <THORN>, <eth> etc.
Wiglaf, why do you use the above forms instead of Þ, ð etc. (or just yhe characters themselves - most browsers should be able to handle them)? Please use either Unicode or HTML-names. Cheers Io 11:00, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I don't have an Icelandic keyboard. I usually search the word "Icelandic" and copy and paste the character. I have already stopped doing so as it doesn't work as intended.--Wiglaf 19:29, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Valkyries in Modern Culture
Tossed in a bit on Cold Wind to Valhalla by Jethro Tull, but there's got to be more than that. Would be an interesting little section.--65.184.43.177 04:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
