Talk:Valencia (autonomous community)

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I am not sure that is the Valencian flag. I thought the flag had the crest with the crown and the bats?

By "Mistery Play" do you by chance mean mystery play, or is this something different? -- April

Is it historically the "Valencian Country"? I think it would be more accurate to say "Kingdom of Valencia" as an historical name. Has it been officially called "Valencian Country" at any point of the past?

I think not. Kingdom of Valencia is more correct. Valencian Country is a recent name, which was coined, I think, to parallel Basque Country and because Valencia is the only community which has to state its community status in the name. User:Marco Neves

It isn't a recent name. Under the 2d Spanish Republic, near 1936, there was a project of an autonomous community, and the official name would be Valencian Country. But, as we all already know, in this year started the Spanish Civil War, and this project never has been achieved. Before of this autonomous project, the name of Valencian Country is already used by a lot of valencian writers in catalan language, and the catalan-speaker people still say País Valencià or more simply València, but never Valencian Community, that's used by spanish-speakers --Martorell 19:16, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You say "there was a project" "the name would be". That's crap. The OFFICIAL name is Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana, as is stated in the last statut, as choose by the great mayority of the people of Valencia in FREE ELECTIONS. This is an encyclopedia and deals with TRUE FACTS, not your dreams.

The name País Valencià (Valencian country) has never been official in any way but it has long been the informal name the Valencians themselves apply to their land (at least during 20th century).

The name Kingdom of Valencia is historically accurate til 1715 Decreto de Nueva Planta.

The name Comunidad Valenciana is a legalese invention of the 1980s.

You may roughly compare the respective usage with Google searches.

"comunidad valenciana" circa 159,000 (Spanish)
"pais valencia" circa 40,000 (Catalan)
"comunitat valenciana" circa 28,700 (Catalan)
"pais valenciano" circa 8,300 (Spanish)
"valencian community" circa 6,200 (English)
"valencian country" circa 5,000 (English)
"reino de valencia" circa 3,700 (Spanish)
"regne de valencia" circa 1,800 (Catalan)
"kingdom of valencia" circa 1,000 (English)
"valencian kingdom" less than 100 (English)

Some things become apparent:

As previsible, the number of hits in Spanish is higher than the number of hits in Catalan or English.
The huge advantage of "comunidad valenciana" shows this is the term widely used in Spanish now.
There is a preference for "pais valencia" in Catalan.

Just like it is not uncommon to see the expression països catalans to refer to Catalan-speaking regions (the usage is similar to la Francophonie in French). — Miguel 07:18, 2004 May 23 (UTC)

Although a Google search may show the current popularity of some denominations, it has nothing to do with actual historical accuracy. Therefore, I think that the sentence It is historically the Valencian Country should be changed in order to reflect the fact that "Valencian Country" is not an historical name, but a name that is currently in wide use.

The Autonomous Community locator map does not include the exclave of Valencia between Aragon and Castilla-la Mancha. (See [1]). Maybe someone could update the map? — Miguel 07:18, 2004 May 23 (UTC)

Hi people! I'm a valencian citizen, and living in Alacant (spanish Alicante). My english language skin is low, but I'm wondered to help anyone to add information about the Valencian Country and anything related to it. I'm also participating a lot in the catalan version of the wikipedia, and you can get info from there about the Valencian Country in catalan Bon vent! --Martorell 19:01, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1 About Community or Country
2 Land of Valencia != Autonomous Community of Valencia
- 2.1 Land of Valencia == Autonomous Community of Valencia
3 Wiki, not Disney
- 3.1 The tourism website isn't a definitive source
- 3.2 The name is not correct
4 "Okay, here's the deal"
5 Consistent city names
6 Statute being reformed?
7 Opening paragraph
8 Castilian vs. Spanish
9 Inclusion of "Valencian Community"
10 About "Catalan Countries"
11 Name Again
12 Disambiguate Help
13 History is History.

[edit] About Community or Country

Please, let's stop to think... what does mean the word "community" in english? And what does mean the word "region" or "country"? Have these the same meaning? According to Cambridge English online dictionary, following here are the meanings:

community: the people living in one particular area or people who are considered as a unit because of their common interests, background or nationality:

He's well-known in the local community.

There's a large black/white/Jewish community living in this area.

Her speech caused outrage among the gay community.

Drug trafficking is a matter of considerable concern for the entire international community (= all the countries of the world).

There's a real sense of community (= caring and friendly feeling) in this neighbourhood.

country: (POLITICAL UNIT) an area of land that has its own government, army, etc.

region: a particular area or part of the world, of the body, etc., or any of the large official areas into which a country is divided:

the semi-desert regions of Australia

the Birmingham region

In order of these meaning, I think that saying "Valencian Community" as name of the article is incorrect, because here we aren't explaining about valencian people who lives in all the world (such as the jews), or without a region with oficial borders (such as the people of the Kurdistan). Whe are talking about an autonomous land into Spain, altough its official name is Comunitat Valenciana, but there isn't any official english name, and so we are free to write english correctly. In fact, in the catalan wikipedia the name of the same article is País Valencià (Valencian Country) because it's the correct meaning and common word in catalan, altough into the article it explains wich is the official name with no problem.

So it would be more correctly if the name of article was "Valencian Country or "Valencian Region". The choice depends of the point of view. My point of view is that the Comunitat Valenciana has an autonomous government with a large and wide governamental competences transfered from Madrid Government, and the Spanish Constitution says that Spain is composed by regions and nationalities. Valencian Kingdom was an independent nation until 1707. In order of the meaning of country from Cambridge's English Dictionary, I think that Valencian Country is the most correct choice.

So, if anyone is disappointed, i will rename the name of the article after a week (deadtime: near Setember 16th).

--Martorell 20:13, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another English word you might want to consider is "commonwealth". Morphologically, it is closer to the word "comunitat" than "region" or "country.

If you move the article make sure you do it properly so as to preserve the edit history, and that you create a redirect from the old name to the new name.

— Miguel 22:04, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

"Community" is obviously a misnomer and stupid-sounding, but it's just as bad in Catalan and Spanish, so it's a good translation. Leave it until the Spanish government changes it. Chameleon 04:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've seen that people here has searched for number of results in google in every name in catalan in spanish, but not in english. So I've done it, and here is the table:

Name	Results
Valencian Community	15.400
Valencian Country	7.800
Region of Valencia	2,870
Kingdom of Valencia	2,290
Valencian Region	837
Land of Valencia	578
Valencian land	137
Valencian Kingdom	94
Country of Valencia	18

About the opinion of Chamaleon, I think that making literal translations isn't the best way, it isn't any official name in english, and it must be correctly interpreted to english-readers. I'm not a professional translator nor interpreter, but I've my doubts about its comprehension of the reality, because I'm not sure that the people reading "community" can associate it to a region/country with autonomous government. The official name is Comunitat Valenciana, of course, and it still would remain in the data table, such as in catalan wikipedia tough the name of the article is Valencian Country. And about the name of "Valencian Region", I think that it would be better writed as "Region of Valencia", in order of number of google's results. I'm still appointed that the choice must be between "Region of Valencia" or "Valencian country".

Miguel, don't worry :), I would be care abount the links, and if the article would be renamed, I would see before wich pages are linked to it, and I would fix it. Ah! And thanks to refer me to a wikipedist who can help me about translations. --Martorell 09:07, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Els problemes de comprensió que poden existir en anglès són els mateixos que poden existir en qualsevol altra llengua. Si dius a un colombià que Espanya es divideix en «Comunidades Autónomas», li semblarà estrany. És que les divisions territorials espanyoles tenen noms estranys. Però això no vol dir que s'hagin d'inventar noms completament diferents en cada idioma. Tenim ací un article amb el nom «Autonomous communities of Spain i està bé. No és «Countries of Spain». Es diu «Comunitat Valenciana» perquè és la comunitat autònoma dels valencians. «País Valencià» és només per als nacionalistes. «Regne de València» és històric. Tampoc a mi no m'agrada el nom oficial, però per a evitar-lo dic senzillament Valencia (ciutat, província i comunitat autònoma), com acostumem fer els angloparlants. Camaleó 11:24, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dir només "València" seria una bona solució, també, ho reconec. Però no estic d'acord amb tú en que el nom de País Valencià és un ús només nacionalista. Si de política es tractara, tenim al segon partit polític més important del País Valencià, el Partit Socialista, que precissament se'n diu Partit Socialista del País Valencià (PSOE-PSPV), que no és gens nacionalista, i els sindicats de treballadors se'n diuen CC.OO. del PV, i UGT-PV, com podràs vore a les seues pàgines webs. A més a més, a les Universitats valencianes, per altra banda, a la titulació d'Història, les assignatures relacionades amb el País Valencià se'n diuen "Història medieval del Regne de València", i quan es tracta de l'època de després de l'any 1707, quan desapareix el Regne de València, se'n diuen per exemple "Història Contemporània del País Valencià", en castellà o en valencià. És un nom totalment comú, si bé l'utilitzem més els catalano-parlants, que no gens els hispano-parlants, tot i que el llibre d'estil del periòdic "El País", en castellà, recomana la utilització de "País Valenciano", en castellà, en la redacció normal, tot i que el suplement té de capçalera el nom de "Comunidad Valenciana".

Havia començat a canviar el nom a tot arreu de la viquipèdia anglesa, però vist que encara hi ha discussions, m'aturarè fins que ens aclarim. És una bona opció utilitzar el terme "Valencia" només, en anglès, però també crec que s'ha d'utilitzar "Valencian Country" quan és necessary per a diferenciar de la província de València i/o de la Ciutat de València. Ah! I no es el mateix una comunitat autònoma com, per exemple, la Rioja o Múrcia, que es tracten de regions, que per exemple el País Valencià, Andalusia, o Galícia, que es tracten de nacionalitats. --Martorell 11:32, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I «Valencia, Spain», «Valencia (province), «Valencia (Autonomous Community)»? Camaleó 11:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Açò seria tornar a com estava abans. D'acord, ho podem fer així, però, per favor, admet que s'ha de poder dir "Valencian Country" o "Autonomous Community of Valencia" quan faça falta en la redacció, algunes vegades. --Martorell 11:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We have a policy on Wikipedia that says we must use the form most commonly used in English. It is clear that the most common way of referring to the territory in English is simply "Valencia". When greater precision is required, we say "Kingdom of Valencia" if referring to mediaeval times, "Valencian Community" if referring to post-Franco times ("Autonomous" can be thrown in for extra clarity) and "Valencian Country" otherwise. Chameleon 12:11, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And what about to use the following police: "Valencia" to referring to the autonomous community, "Kingdom of Valencia" if referring to medieval times, and "Valencian Country" if referring to locate some valencian sub-division in order to avoid confusions between administrative subdivisions. By exemple, "Alacant is a city in the southern of Valencia" may confuse about Alacant is within the province of Valencia because Alacant has its own province, so it would be cleared if we write "Alacant is a city in the southern of the Valencian Country". If we say "Alacant is a city in the southern of the autonomous community of Valencia" it's too large. --Martorell 12:22, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

According to policy we should write "Alicante is a town in the south of the Valencian Community". The following is not too long, and has the advantage of linking to appropriate articles: "Alicante is the capital of the province of the same name in the south of the Autonomous Community of Valencia." Chameleon 13:25, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've said already that I accept these terms: "Valencia", "Valencian Country", and "Autonomous Community of Valencia", but I don't accept the term "Valencian Community" because it's inexactly in english meaning. --Martorell 13:49, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tot-hom sap que lo de Pais Valencia es solament usat p'els imperialistes catalans, el primer pas per al seu Anschluss anomemat Països Catalans. El nom oficial i UNIC es el de Comunitat Valenciana.

Dont know if I'm missing anything but if we all seem to agree that "Valencia" will do, why is the article still titled "Land of Valencia"? sounds like and idiotic compromise to me that absoloutely no one will use in practical terms when referring to the region/community/kingdom

It's the used name in English according from official tourism web page by the own Valencian government. --Martorell 06:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Not sure that's the best criterion to follow.. They also refer to Region of Valencia a lot.. and in any case if Spanish translations to English are often not the best reference to take, even less if they're done by bureaucrats

"Region of Valencia" is the former name under Franco's Dictatorship, and because of it it isn't be used as top title in the web, surely. "Community" or "autonomous community" in English isn't meaning the same in Spanish as it refers to a little group of persons. Read further more above here. --Martorell 06:18, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

But, as already said by Chameleon on 10 Sep: this meaning is also the one that the word originally had in Spanish (cf. RAE & COED). So "Community" appears indeed to be the best translation, after all... Regards.--Periku 19:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

And because of it, as you argued, the article name was changed from "Community of Valencia" to "Valencia (autonomous community)". But any of these two name isn't being used by the Valencian Government who uses in Enlish "Land of Valencia", in French "Communauté du Valence", and in German "Landen Valencia". And so, it was changed again to "Land of Valencia". It is also correct than "Community of Valencia", but it's also an official use, so there are two arguments in favour. --Martorell 08:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I ask responsible people of Wikipedia, not to let you influence by the catalanistic imperialism. If you want to know about the valencian reality, ask valencians. There are a lot of them (the majority) not being paid by any catalan organisation. Have a look at the following web sites: www.elpalleter.com www.loratpenat.org www.oronella.com www.racv.es www.amics-racv.org www.valencianlanguage.com www.llenguavalenciana.com The problem of the catalans is, that they do not have got anything of its own, and they try to build up a "nation"(?) not having own history, not having own language, not having middle-age literature (all written in provenzal) and even not having an own flag, because the currently used belongs to Aragon. Poor, poor catalans...

This sentence is really funny, and I think it should be corrected: "The official languages are Castillian (Spanish) and Valencian (Catalan), although the last one is considered legally as a language of its own, according the "Law of Use and Education of Valencian" approved in 1983." If it is a language of its own by law, then the official languages are Spanish and Valencian.

[edit] Land of Valencia != Autonomous Community of Valencia

Reading this article seems that the medieval Land of Valencia is the same that the current Autonomous Community of Valencia, and that's untrue. Also, in an strange way, Autonomous Community of Valencia redirects here. This article should be merged with Kingdom of Valencia and a new article for Autonomous Community of Valencia must be written. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.57.211.236 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC).

I think that sounds like a good idea. What do others think? (BTW, is that all that the POV tag is about?) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm disagree with it. Land of Valencia is used today as English name for "Comunitat Valenciana" according to the above given link about official tourism by Valencian government. The word "Land" is used to give a meaning of a territory with some level of political autonomy such the german "landers", because in English the meaning of "Community" is different than in Spanish "Comunidad". In fact, "Community" in English sounds me more used to refer, i.e., to jewish/spanish/afroamerican/irish/polish/german/francophone/etc. community into a metropolitan area of a city. Anyway, the borders of Kingdom of Valencia are generally the same as today Land of Valencia, and there is a historical continuity. In my own opinion, the correct way would be creating an article about the "Kingdom of Valencia", and the actual Valencia goes on Land of Valencia.

In the other side, in Spanish wikipedia es:Comunidad Valenciana it refers also to the Kingdom of Valencia in order to explain the existence of this Land, and the two first paragraphs on English version seem to be based about a translation from Catalan wikipedia ca:País Valencià, wich is a very large article and was also a featured article by its quality. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 05:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

This article leads to confusion, because the old Land of Valencia is not the Autonomous Community of Valencia. For example, it is like if the article Russia redirected to USSR. Russia was part of the USSR, but the Soviet Union is not Russia.

If you look at the article name in other languages, you will observe that the term used is Autonomous Community, because these articles correctly differentiates the medieval independent territory of the current administrative division of Spain, except strangely in Catalan. The Deutsch article was Valencia (Region), before Martorell changed it to Land (NPOV?), you can check this looking at the history of the Deutch article.

Also, the U.S. Board on Geographic Names' (US BGN) database of foreign geographic feature names, which is the official repository of foreign place-names for usage in the United States, developed by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, says that the English translation for Comunidad Autónoma must be Autonomous Community for the shake of correctness. This is an excerpt of the full database.

PS, the English version of official website uses the term Autonomous Community, not Land. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.57.211.236 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Land of Valencia == Autonomous Community of Valencia

Please, dont put POV notice again in the article because you aren't discussing about its content. I don't care about the other translations, because there are surely a literal translation from Spanish or Catalan. But you're mistaken because Land of Valencia isn't the same as "Kingdom of Valencia", because "Land of Valencia" is referring to valencian territory in any time. Perhaps naming it "Autonomous Community of Valencia" is correct as "Land of Valencia", because both are used for Valencian Government. But I think it's better to choice the most shortest name, as it's used for general visitors outside Spain. If you called it as "Autonomous Community of Valencia", it would be the same case naming "Spain" as "Kingdom of Spain", but anyone wouldn't agree surely with this form, because it would be redundant. But Valencia are three things: a city, a province, and a land, so it was called as "Land of Valencia". In German case, "Land" has the same meaning way that "Comunitat Autònoma". --Joanot Martorell ✉ 16:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I don't see where the name "Autonomous Community of Valencia" is strong noticed in http://www.gva.es as "Land of Valencia" is showly in the English header of official tourism webpage http://www.comunitatvalenciana.com . Instead of it, it's more used "Valencian Community", but it's so ambiguous in English. One more thing, if you travel here ever, and you ask for tourist information, you would receive the flyers, books, guides, plannings, etc... whith the name "Land of Valencia" in the English version. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Joanot, your reasoning is flawed for the several reasons: (1) see my post below; (2) see my post further below -- there is no official translation of "Comunidad Valenciana"; relying on what English speaking governments or encyclopedias list is our best bet, seeing as the tourist page is inconsistent (3) if you do a google search on the generalitat's website, gva.es for different possible titles you get the following: 6 hits for Land of Valencia, 87 hits for Valencian Community, 31 hits for Valencian Region, and 22 hits for Region of Valencia (including Autonomous Region of Valencia) (4) It doesn't matter whether "community" in English means the same thing as it does in Spanish--in this context they are technical terms. For example, in the U.S. you refer to the highest level of local government as a state, even though in any other context state refers to a national government. Guess how they translate the state of California into Spanish? La provincia de California? No; they use el estado de California even though it doesn't mean the same thing. -- Malandi 02:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Only nacionalists like Martorell, less than 10% of the Valencian vote, name "Pais Valencia" usually to the Community of Valencia. Land of Valencia is the traduction in english of País Valenciano or País Valencia, In my opinion it is not a good and correct name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.120.17.126 (talk • contribs) January 25, 2006.

[edit] Wiki, not Disney

>>In German case, "Land" has the same meaning way that "Comunitat Autònoma".<<

What has that to do with anything? This is the English- not the German-language Wikipedia. Nor yet is it is the Valencian, Catalan, or Spanish-language Wikipedia. The fact is that "the Land of Valencia" is something dreamed up by the marketing department of the Consellería de Turisme de la Generalitat Valenciana. It might be fair enough to use that invented term to adorn tourist brochures, but as an official name for the autonomous region under discussion here it sounds so ridiculously twee!

Are we talking here about the real Valencian Community (as that political and economic entity is most widely known in the real English-speaking world) or about a Disneyworld-type fantasy? The Wikipedia convention on naming (unless it has been changed when I wasn't looking) is not to slavishly follow Tourist Boards or any other marketing departments, but to use the de facto most widely established designation – certainly never one chosen simply because someone might wish it were used instead: otherwise the naming of articles simply turns into a battleground based on wish-fulfillment.

>>"Community" or "autonomous community" in English isn't meaning the same in Spanish as it refers to a little group of persons.<<

Does it? The population of the European Community in its final year (1993) was at least 345 million people. A "little group of persons"?! -- Picapica 16:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Why not Autonomous Community of Valencia? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Land of Valencia sounds really bad for me. In my opinion, whether it's Autonomous Community of Valencia or Valencian Community, it should be changed. Tsuba 04:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I moved this to Autonomous Community of Valencia and was reverted without explanation by Joanot. I assume that his reasons are the ones he gave above. I still think he is wrong about appropriate usage, but I can't disagree with his citation of this poor choice to an official source, so I won't fight over it. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The tourism website isn't a definitive source

On the main tourism page there are TWO distinct uses of the name: Land of Valencia in the header, but Region of Valencia everywhere else on the actual content of the main page.

If you look a little deeper, you'll see that this is not just a black and white issue with the (official) tourism website. Hear me out a little. On the OFFICIAL PUBLICATION page (yes, publications in English authored by the government) they use the terms Land of Valencia and Region of Valencia INDISCRIMINATELY:

A global view of the Land of Valencia...

Information on the inland areas of the Region of Valencia including routes,

Collection including some of the most representative festivities in the Land of Valencia.

Historical of the monthly magazine CVNews, which provides interesting information
about the Region of Valencia

and finally:

Maps of the Region of Valencia

If you look in the 84-page generic leaflet, there are ZERO occurrences of "Land of Valencia", ZERO occurrences of "Valencian Community", and yet TWENTY-ONE occurrences of "Region of Valencia".

The four publications under Collection product guides use only Region of Valencia.

The four publications under Theme leaflet collection use only Land of Valencia.

The sixteen publications under Districts of the interior collection use only Land of Valencia.

The eightteen publications under Magazine CVNews use only Region of Valencia and cite the President of the Valencian Regional government (cf Presidente de la Generalitat Valenciana)

Conclusion? Both "Land of Valencia" and "Region of Valencia" are possible translations, neither of the two is preferred, and one must be consistent when using them, at least on the tourism website.

-- Malandi 09:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC) Malandi

I found on the web a tourist guide book edited by the Valencian Government (in English, of course) where uses always the name "Land of Valencia" in all the whole 60 pages. This book is edited on 2002 year. This book seem to being printed in paper and distributed on important events. In fact, the web where I've found this guidebook is about the 57th International Astronautical Congress that will take on Valencia in 2006 year. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I emailed the Generalitat Valenciana about how to translate the name because this is ridiculous. My question was what was the preferred or official translation "Comunidad Valenciana" in English. Here is what they said:

Estimado Sr.

El nombre oficial es Comunidad Valenciana, en castellano, y Comunitat Valenciana, en valenciano, tal como se indica en el art. 1 del Estatuto de Autonomía en las versiones correspondientes. En inglés no existe denominación oficial al no ser este idioma oficial en la Comunidad.

Las denominaciones País Valenciano y Región Valenciana corresponden a distintas concepciones históricas y políticas de la actual Comunidad Valenciana. Aunque todavía se siguen utilizando estas denominaciones no tienen el valor de oficiales, si bien son un reflejo de estas dos concepciones, como se expone en el preámbulo del Estatuto.

LEY ORGÁNICA 5/1982, DE 1 DE JULIO, DE ESTATUTO DE AUTONOMÍA DE LA COMUNIDAD VALENCIANA [DOGV núm. 74, de 15 de julio]

http://www.gva.es/cidaj/cas/sc5/op2.htm

Artículo 1. Uno. El pueblo valenciano, históricamente organizado como Reino de Valencia, se constituye en Comunidad Autónoma, dentro de la indisoluble unidad de la nación española, como expresión de su identidad histórica y en el ejercicio del derecho de autogobierno que la Constitución reconoce a toda nacionalidad, con la denominación de Comunidad Valenciana.

(My) Translation of the above:

"Dear Sir, The official name is Comunidad Valenciana in Spanish and Comunitat Valenciana in Valencian, as per Article 1 of the Statute of Autonomy of the respective versions. In English there is no official name since it isn't an official matter in the Community.

The names "País Valenciano" [cf. Land of Valencia] and "Región Valenciana" [cf. Region of Valencia] correspond to different historical and political conceptions of the present-day Comunidad Valenciana. Although the former names are still in use, they carry no official weight, even though they reflect those two conceptions, as the preamble to the Statute puts forward:

This should put to rest any speculation as to what the preferred translation is, because there is none. As journalists we must reflect this in the article and not prefer any either. Any preference on our part would either be speculatory or biased. -- Malandi 19:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Note that "Land of Valencia" isn't a translation of "País Valenciano", which the correct one is "Valencian Country" (such as "País Vasco" -> Basque Country). In fact, the translation of "Región de Valencia" in Spanish can be two, using "Land" or using "Region". But according to the same Statute[2], there never use the term "Regió" (in Catalan), in those document the names used are "País Valencià" (Valencian Country), and "Regne de València" (Kingdom of Valencia, not Region of Valencia), both in the preamble, and "Comunitat Valenciana" (unknown translation) as official name. In the past 20th century, Valencia was named "Valencian Region" and was named "Valencian Country" also. If we use "Region of Valencia" it mostly would refer to an historical period (before the 2nd Spanish Republic, mainly).

In these Statute Valencians don't consider themselves as a Region of any other upper entity, as "Region of Murcia" does, but also the Valencian nationalist movement hasn't enough force as in Basque Country there has (in fact, Valencian nationalism is the third political force in number of municipality councillors and fourth political force in regional elections, but they haven't got any regional deputy yet). If you use "Region" or "Country" maybe you're using a political viewpoint, but if you use "Land" maybe you're being more neutral on political viewpoints. Anyway, as you can see, the tourist guide material from Valencian Government is being widely distributed with the name "Land of Valencia" on important events nowadays. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 20:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but you still suggest that since the tourist guide material from Valencian government is being widely distributed with the name "Land of Valencia" on important events, that the name should be translated "Land of Valencia". Apparantly you have not considered (or have selectively ignored) the tourist guide materials I cited above, including an 84-page tourist guide published in 2005 that only uses the term "Region of Valencia", among others. Both translations are in wide circulation by official sources in recent materials. Seeing as there is no de facto translation, it suffices that we use both. -- Malandi 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring this fact, I know it, but as I've said already, saying "Region" here implies a political viewpoint. Nowadays, the political party wich is governing now in Valencia (Partido Popular) in last years are supporting this political background, and the term "Region" may being favoured because of it. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 21:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. If you're worried about political bias, since there is no official translation and the tourism sources are hardly definitive, here are some official and unofficial (but scholarly) sources:

http://www.constitucion.es/constitucion/lenguas/ingles.html. Spanish Constitution, official translation to English. Note that "Comunidad" and "Comunidad Autónoma" are translated as "Community" and "Autonomous Community".

http://www.uv.es/~webuv/ingles/guide.pdf. Guide to the University of Valencia, English translation. On page 5, "Readers will find in it the widest study offer for both official and UV–specific degrees in the Valencian Community, delivered in three campuses and six scientific areas."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074684. Encyclopedia Britannica article on Valencia. Note the textual use of "comunidad autónoma", the translation as "autonomous community" at the beginning (defining the term for the rest of the article).

http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html. Orbis encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v/valenc-rgn.asp. Columbia encyclopedia article on Valencia. Translated as "autonomous region".

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573717/Valencia_(region_Spain).html. MSN Encarta online encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=valencia. American Heritage dictionary entry on Valencia. "A region of eastern Spain on the Mediterranean coast..." There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/valencia. Meriam-Webster dictionary entry on Valencia. "region & ancient kingdom E Spain" There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/valencia.html MSN Encarta World English dictionary entry on Valencia. "1. capital of the autonomous region of Valencia in eastern Spain."

It looks like "region", "autonomous region", and "autonomous community" are the standard fare in literature. -- Malandi 22:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that official tourism is a reliable source and, as you mentioned above, there is using two terms: Land of Valencia and Region of Valencia. It can be mentioned on the article, but it would need also to mention the local political backgrounds that implies the term "Region". All this discussion may be used to expand the article. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 23:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I changed the discussion heading to "the tourism site isn't a definitive source" to reflect that the translation appears to be ad hoc. Keep in mind that the encyclopedias I cited above are often held in high esteem, so they bear mentioning too.

We should just title the article "Comunidad Valenciana" or "Valencia (autonomous community)" and have every other form (Land of Valencia, Valencian Community, Autonomous Community of Valencia, Region of Valencia, Valencian Region, Valencian Country) redirect there. This is how other notable encyclopedias in English have done it, and it offers the least ambiguity and political misgivings. OK? -- Malandi 01:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The name is not correct

Land of Valencia?. This name is invented by the wikipedians, the name in english must be Valencian Community or Community of Valencia, or simple: Valencia (autonomous community), because the name of this region is Valencia, like the capital. But Land of Valencia is not a name with english tradition and what is the mean?. I read some lines ago that the most usual name in internet is Community of Valencia, good, use this name for the Valencia autonomous community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.120.17.126 (talk • contribs) January 26, 2006.

Exactly. I cited 9 sources in English (official and academic), and someone above cited a US government source--none use Land of Valencia. The disagreement here is with Joanot, who insists on using Land of Valencia for imaginary political reasons. Malandi 22:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Okay, here's the deal"

Okay, here's the deal. Neither the Spanish nor the Catalan version of this article (funny how there's no Valencian version) say anything about Valencian being a "separate" language from Catalan. They talk about it being a more conservative variety of Catalan, or the name of given to the langauge elsewhere called Catalan. So, before anyway goes calling it a separate language here, I would suggest you go try that out with your OWN COUNTRYMEN AND COUNTRYWOMEN first, Castilian-speaking, Catalan-speaking, and Valencian-speaking, before you try and pull one over on us dumb English-speakers. I mean, really. If you can pull it off on either the Spanish or Catalan site, then perhaps we can discuss changing the English-language site. But the English-language site is no place to be airing your intra-Spain political recriminations. Blondlieut 22:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"the Misteri d'Elx, which has been declared part of "World Heritage" by UNESCO."

there's no context or explanation for what this is or why it's important. Blondlieut 16:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC) "The same law contains no mention of Castilian as its own language."

I assume "own language," pròpia llengua/propia lengua, is a direct translation from the Spanish/Catalan/Valencian/What-have-you. It does not work in English. I think what the writer may mean to say is that "the law contains no mention that Castilian is a language over which the Valencian region has some claim of ownership" or some such. At any rate, this idea that a lengua/llengua is a region's "own," (or perhaps "proper") given that in the article goes on to say that Castilian is oficial throughout Spain. Well ... official languages, regardless of whatever some local enactment might say, I would think would have some standing as the "own" or "proper" language of at least some Valencians, particularly the not insignificant portion of the population that speaks Castilian, and those in the western portion of the region who have always spoken Castilian. You know, as an American with great sympathy for the aspirations of those who wish to reassert the perrogatives of Catalan/Valencian, the unstated arrogance here is thick enough to cut a knife with, and is not likely to win any friends, and more importantly ... VIOLATES NPOV. Blondlieut 21:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It's just a bit silly. I mean, in Catalan or Spanish, Paisos Catalans is not "Catalan Lands" in English, is it? Silly, silly, silly. Why would one even translate "pais" as "land" in English?? Land of Valencia. Valencia Land. It sounds like something at Disney World, not a real place. Blondlieut 02:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"Valencian language is considered legally the proper language, according the "Law of Use and Education of Valencian" approved in 1983."

Okay, this isn't really English. Does the writer mean to say "The language of Valencia is properly Valencian, pursuant to the Use and Educuation in Valencian Act of 1983," or "The Valencian language is properly called "Valencian," as noted in the Use and Education in Valencian Act of 1983." I honestly cannot tell from the muddle of the current sentence (which may be a muddle of the English, a muddle of the thoughts, or a muddle of both). Sorry to be so harsh, but I think there's more of a pushing of an agenda here (i.e., "considered legally the proper language"), and demarcating the distance between Valencian and Catalan and Castilian, than in writing a useful and helpful encylcopedia article for English speakers. Ditto "Land of Valencia/Valencia Land" Duh, to quote Homer Simpson. Blondlieut 02:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay .... now I'm really getting annoyed. If Valencian is its "own" language (and not, say, any more different from Catalan spoken in Bareclona than American English is from British English), then why isn't there a Valencian wikipedia? And if its own language, than why is Joan Fuster, born in "Valencia Land" (NEXT STOP ON MONORAIL BLUE, VALENCIA LAND, AN E-TICKET ATTRACTION IN THE SPANISH PAVILLION!!!), and who writes in a language that looks suspiciously like Catalan, listed in Wikipedia under "Catalan-language Writers" instead of "Valencian-language Writers"? Oh, I know why, that's because in English, Valencian describes organges and a flavor at Starbucks, not a language, and not a "land," regardless of whatever nonsense you put in here. Sorry about that. Blondlieut 02:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

There's a really wonderful word in English: polysemy. It means ... a word can mean more than one thing. Valencia is ... a city, a province (created, I believe .. not by Valencians, but artificially, by the Spanish State, as I recall), and a "region," of some sort). As to the latter, seems to me, the silliness of having this anywhere other than under "Valencia (Autonomous Community)" is born out by the very box on Spain's Administrative Structure down at the bottom of the article.

I live in Virginia. Virginia is "officially" not a state. It's a commonwealth. Yet, Virginia is listed in Wikipedia under Virginia. And the name of the country (aHem) is the United States of America (not the United States and Commonwealths of America).

Would I expect Valencians (or anyone outside the Old Dominion) to have to look for Virginia under "Commonwealth of Virginia" just to statisy my own personal Virginianist agenda rather than under "Virginia" under the theory that it's not a state? Are we going to put Rhode Island under "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" as this is the "real" name of that state?

The mind boggles. 14:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blondlieut (talk • contribs) .

Blondlieut, reading through this, I can tell that you are annoyed, but I honestly cannot tell what changes you want to make in the article, or with whom you are arguing; "now I'm really getting annoyed" is an odd remarks amidst a monologue. - Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

One can be annoyed without arguing. Anyway, I made the changes regarding the name of the language, which aren't nearly as severe as my comments are.Blondlieut 05:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The name of "Land of Valencia" is used by valencian government nowadays, and it's English perfectly such as "England", "Holland", "Switzerland", "Finland", "Poland", "Ireland", "Scotland", etc... Of course, the literal translation of "País Valencià" is "Valencian Country", such as Basque Country or Catalan Countries. This name isn't being related to this translation as I've answared you on Talk:Joan Fuster already. I suppose that "Land of Valencia" would be more or less the same literal meaning as "País de València" (such as "País de Gales", Wales). --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Joanot, you've proven the silliness of this, and the fact that you're tone-deaf to the usage of this in English. We indeed say Wales in English, not Wales Land or Land of Wales. Fascinating, it may occur to you, this is not the Catalan or the the Valecian or the Spanish language version of Wikipedia, it's the English language version, and "Land of Valencia" sounds stupid. It is downright illiterate. Do you want people to think that Valecians are dumb, stupid and illiterate people? Is that what you want? Is that the impression that you wish to give? Then by all means stick with the name "Land of Valencia," because that's the impression it gives. It is not English. You are the only person who has written on the discussion page that is in support of keeping that name. I will be changing it back, unless you can drum up support from someone else who speaks ***English***, as this is the ENGLISH-LANGUAGE version of Wikipedia. Blondlieut 02:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

To take but one (but certainly not the only) example of the confusion created by this ... let me point out the stupidity in English created by the phrase when combined with other phrases, such as "Seaports." So, in the links section, one of the links is "Seaports of Land of Valencia." (First off, let me point out the the phrase as an article missing in English ... would you like to guess and tell me where it is??) Now unless a English-speaker were very well versed in the (silly) politics of naming, there are at least two ways to interpret this (based on the ridiculous notion that "Land" in English corresponds to "Pais" in Spanish/Catalan, rather than Tierra/Terra ... recollecting of course that "land" in England is indeed ... Ingleterra/Angleterra in Spanish/Catalan, not Pais Angles/Ingles, for example) ... it could be ... Ports terrestres de Valencia (whatever that means) or Ports de (la) terra valenciana (English needs an article here, by the way, which it's currently lacking because of this silly "Land" construction)(wherever that might be). Again, it's just simply illiterate in English. Why can't it be "Seaports in the Community of Valencia?" I dunno. I mean, last I checked, "Comunidad" was at least one of the translations for "Commonwealth" as in the official name of the (real) country of Australia; if Australia can be the Comunidad de Australia, why is this a put-down when used for the (not-quite-as-real-as-Australia) country called Valencia?

It's not. And, oh, by the way ... the formulation you keep changing happens to be idiomatic, natural and perfectly understandable English, and "Land" is not. Blondlieut 05:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"País" in Catalan/Spanish not only means "Country" in English, but also any territorial unit such as a province, a region, a country, a state, a county, etc... whatever territorial unit you want. Anyway, this form is used by Valencian government, not by me (my personal preference is "Valencian Country"), and when a political representation of valencians are using this form in English ("Land of Valencia") in all touristic publication for the most important events in Valencia, the literature isn't important. The literature could be important if we would have some doubt about the name, in order to help ourselves to choose the correct one, but not when it's clear about an official use in English. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Joanot, you're missing the point. This being the English-language version of Wikipedia, at the moment what's at issue is the meaning of the English word "Land," not the meaning of the Catalan or the Spanish word Pais. And "Land" does not mean what you think it does, nor does it mean what you propose, nor does it translate "pais" in any meaningful way. At any rate, I believe we've been through the tiresome excerise of the name in English, and its official status in English-- that being that there is no such creature. That there may be bureaucrats in various minor agencies of the Autonomous Community who have (quite incorrectly) used the term "Land" in English (along with a whole host of other various unidiomatic uses of our grand mother tongue) does not change our beloved mother tongue, would not merit an entry in the Oxford English Dictionary, and more importantly ... does not even begin to meet the criterion for forestalling my eventual changing of your reversions. And that's simple, and a very low threshold-- finding one (1), just one other native speaker of English who happens to agree with you. (That's generous indeed, seeing as how consensus would appear not to be on your side, for a fair reading of this discussions page)

Good luck with that, Joanot. Good luck indeed. Blondlieut 13:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, in your spare time, why don't you go harrass the Norwegians on their Bokmal page who clearly have this as Valencia (Autonomi), as do the Swedes? Stop vandalizing the pages of us poor Anglo-Saxons for a while, and pick on the Nordic countries. Blondlieut 13:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

According to Cambridge dictionary[3], the word "land" means "a country" in a more nearest sense of "region" but not "nation". On Merriam-Webster dictionary[4] this word means also "country" or the "the people of a country". In Oxford English Dictionary[5], it's also "a country or state". In these dictionaries, there are several exemples about using the word "land" as meaning of "region" or "country", such as Cambridge Dict. ("The group want to promote their ideas in schools throughout the land."). I'm seeing that you're disappointing all these English dictionaries, not to me. If you dislike this name, I understand you because I also dislike it, but the fact is that's being used by Valencian government. If you disagree with them, complain them instead doing it here. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 14:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Again I would point out that there's more than something a bit tone-deaf in your example. The phrase "throughout the land" uses "land" as a common noun; the issue here is that "Land" is capitalized as used as a proper noun. It has an overly poetic, and as has been pointed out several times "Disneyland" quality to it. Are there any examples where "Land" is used as a separate word, but capitalized, as if part of a proper noun? That usage in English seems artificial in the extreme, and very "Disney," as in ...."The Land of Tomorrrow," brought to you the good people at General Electric. It's not real English, it's publicity English, and yes, it's Tourism Department English. Very good of you to point that out as an example.Blondlieut 19:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is more selective thinking and bias on Joanot's part. He just claimed that the most recent tourist publications use Land of Valencia preferentially (implying official status). Again, I already disproved this earlier--

The four publications under Collection product guides use only Region of Valencia.

The four publications under Theme leaflet collection use only Land of Valencia.

The sixteen publications under Districts of the interior collection use only Land of Valencia.

The eightteen publications under Magazine CVNews use only Region of Valencia and cite the President of the Valencian Regional government (cf Presidente de la Generalitat Valenciana)

He says that the name is being used by the Valencian government. The Valencian government has no preference (I even emailed them about this). Also, it's been pointed out that in official publications from the Spanish government (not Valencian) and foreign governments prefer the "Autonomous Community" nomenclature:

http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html. Orbis encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v/valenc-rgn.asp. Columbia encyclopedia article on Valencia. Translated as "autonomous region".

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573717/Valencia_(region_Spain).html. MSN Encarta online encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/valencia. Meriam-Webster dictionary entry on Valencia. "region & ancient kingdom E Spain" There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/valencia.html MSN Encarta World English dictionary entry on Valencia. "1. capital of the autonomous region of Valencia in eastern Spain."
Malandi 18:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consistent city names

Some of the city names are in Spanish with a Valencian version in parentheses, others in Valencian with a Spanish version in parentheses. Let's have one or the other for consistency's sake.

In some cities there is historically Spanish-speaker, and in others there are Catalan-speaker, and so it's respecting the local endonym. By exemple, there are the names Orihuela (Spanish) and Oriola (Catalan) for the same city, but there is using Orihuela because it's historically Spanish-speaker. You can see the Spanish-speaker area and the Catalan-speaker area in a map shown at Valencian. There is a border used with a red line. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 19:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe Joanot makes a good point. Perhaps all that would become clearly when this article becomes more than a stub.Blondlieut 18:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statute being reformed?

I think this sentence is out of place in the first paragraph: Nowadays, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy is being reformed in order to recognize officially Valencia as a nationality, pursuant to the Spanish Constitution of 1978.

The opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively, that's it--just like in all the other articles (including the Spanish version) Malandi 06:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure "statutes" are reformed. Perhaps the autonomous status of Valencia could be "presently" (obviously not "nowadays") undergoing reformation (although that makes me think more of Martin Luther more than it does a political process). It seems like so much semantics, but I think what the sentence is attempting to convey is that the "Autonomy Statute" as the various estatutos de autonomias are called elsewhere on English Wikipedia, is being "amended" (that's what we do when we change constitutions and the like, but perhaps "modified" if one wanted to make certain that more "adding materia" is going on) to recognize Valencia as a "nationality" within the Spanish State.Blondlieut 15:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, if the statutes haven't actually been reformed yet, then it's a proposed reform or simply a proposal. The sentence conveys something overly definitive and reeks of non-NPOV Malandi 18:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening paragraph

I think the opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively. This means: saying what major administrative subunits Valencia governs and where it is in Spain (see this article as an example http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html). Saying that it is in Eastern Iberia isn't necessary, since people can figure out that Spain is almost exclusively in Iberia, thus saying eastern Spain is sufficient. Also, things like land border could be placed in the sidebar instead of the first paragraph, since it isn't a critical feature of Valencia. The coastline, however, is, since Valencia has a heavy tourist industry. Perhaps mentioning some comparative details would be better, like "xth longest in Spain" Malandi 18:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Castilian vs. Spanish

I think translation castellano as Castilian is a bit overkill, since the Castilian v. Spanish distinction is really a political issue for the inhabitants of Spain about the naming of the language. In English when you say Castilian it refers to a specific dialect of Spanish and not the Spanish language, the latter of which is the intended meaning of castellano in these cases. In English the term Spanish is overwhelmingly preferred. Malandi 10:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

In Valencian vs. Catalan case it's the exactly same matter as Castilian vs. Spanish. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed one of my points. It's 'not' the same for this reason: in Spanish they're using 'castellano' to refer to the Spanish language and divorce the word from nationality. In English 'Castilian' is rare to find when referring to the 'Spanish language' (and not the dialect of Castile). Malandi 23:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of "Valencian Community"

What's the big fuss with including "Valencian Community" as one of the possible translated names? This translation appears in scholarly articles (cited above), tourist guides, Universities in Valencia, and a sizable number (the largest number) of webpages in English. The Valencian gov't has already mentioned it does not act in any official capacity regarding the translation of the name, so that can't be an issue.

I really don't see the leap of logic that it takes here to accept Valencian Community: Comunidad Autónoma <--> Autonomous Community; Valenciana <--> Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana <--> _____________. Given the specific nomenclature of the autonomous communities, the meaning is pretty clear. In English, Country is usually associated with (independent) states, which neither the Basque AC is nor Valencia, but people accept those names in English. Malandi 00:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About "Catalan Countries"

It is frequent to find texts in which Valencia is included within the “Catalan Countries”, nevertheless I want to correct this error of political origin (Catalan nationalism) so generalized. The Kingdom of Valencia never has belonged to any “Catalan Countries”. The Valencian culture cannot be described like “Catalan”, because these two cultures are different and have diverse origins (the Kingdom of Valencia exists from before the conquest of Jaume I). The Valencian language comes from the occitano, and therefore it has a parallel origin and development to the Catalan language, but it does not come absolutely from this one. Really, the Valencians are not “Catalan” in any aspect; its history, language and culture do not have to be distorted.

I agree with you. It´s ridiculous when some people pretend to say that people from Valencia or the Balearic Islands are Catalans. Let´s be serious, Catalonia never was a country and never was a Kingdom, why do they do that?. Imperialism in the 21st century?. Please!!!This is an encyclopedia!!!And the same for those who pretend to say that Valencian is a different language to Catalan. Can anybody tell me any linguistic or academic organization who defend that theory of two different languages?. This is an encyclopedia not a place where political vindications are made.

You'll never give up saying sci-fi arguments about Valencian coming from occitan or mozarabic. Really, it's pathetic.

I'm French and have been living in Valencia for 5 years now. What really surprises me regarding the controversy about the "Catalan Countries" is that nobody has criticized the absurdity of the Catalan arguments. We are all supposed to enjoy our basic rights but apparently, according to Catalan politicians, Valencians have no right whatsoever to choose how they can call their region or their own language. The only ones having this right are Catalans!!! Catalan and Valencian are unmistakenly extremely similar languages but tell that to Croatians or Slovakians!!! Using the same absurd arguments, Croatia should be part of the "Serb Countries", a term in fact used only by the ultra-nationalist parties in Belgrade. Try also telling a Croatian that his language is in fact Serb not Croatian!!! The same arguments hold also true for Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Both these cases are very similar to the Valencian/Catalan case. Using the same arguments, Australia, New Zealand and the US (among others) also belong to the "English Countries" since they speak the same language!!! I have no scientific data to corroborate my claim, but I doubt whether any Valencian considers himself/herself Catalan, except of course an extremely small minority of pro-Catalan leftists. Obviously, and this is the bottom line, the origin of all these science-fiction theories about the existence of the "Catalan Countries" is purely economic. A rich and prospering Valencian Community is a thorn to the visions of "grandeur" and dominance by the Catalan political establishment!!! Don't look further than the recent ridiculous travails of the Endesa buyout. A Spanish company 's buyout by a Catalan group is viewed as healthy economic activity while the buyout of the same group by a German group is mean and evil!!

[edit] Name Again

This article needs to be titled "Valencia (autonomous region)" or "Valencia (autonomous community)". "Land of Valencia" is not used in English and sounds awful. Obviously changed by one side or the other in the great Spanish debate about what a country is. Living in Barcelona, a city where old people often can be found looking for food in bins, this constant debate about semantics seems like a massive waste of a "nation"s time.

[edit] Disambiguate Help

Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term Valencia. At Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links, Valencia is one of the disambiguation pages with the most links, and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and disambiguate to a more correct location. Thanks, -- Jeff3000 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History is History.

Regarding your page on Valencia: 1) let me explain to you that Valencia and Cataluña are neighbour lands (autonomous communities). Full stop. It is incorrect to mix both when you speak about Valencia. Therefore, trying to create confussion and to build common Institutions (except Spain, as a nation)between Valencia and Cataluña , is simply false and misleading.

2) the problem with catalans is that are desperately trying to invent their history "a la carte". Till the XIX century they have no literature (all the classics are written in valencian language, not in catalan); no flag (it is the flag of the Aragon kingdom); no local heros (Wifredo for example was French from Carcassonne; Ramon Lull was from Mallorca, Roger de Lauria was Italian, etc. etc..). Therefore, they can only try to absorb other's history by saying that "catalán language " is the common umbrella for them and their neighbours, and therefore "all" is catalán. May I remember you Hitler's statement "if Austrians speak german, they are germans".

The problem is that neither Austrians are Germans, nor Valencians or Mallorquins, are Catalans (thanks God, I must say, because we have a different culture and respect for the others).

Wikipedia can go on including informations that are not true and do not correspond with the History or the legal&real situation, or can gain prestige by informing correctly.

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