Talk:Ustaše
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[edit] Serbian Bodyguards and troops
A fact that should be mentioned in the article is: 1. Ante Pavelic had a Serbian bodyguard right up until he fled to Argentina. He was not just a bodygurad but was like a right hand man. 2. Many of the Ustashe troops were in fact Serbian by blood. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.111.75.195 (talk • contribs). The above is known and written about in the former Yugoslvia. I forget the name of the book...Evergreen Montenegro1 03:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Molba za hrvatske trolove
Ima nas Hrvata kojima ne imponira da nas smatraju retardiranim nacistima pa bi vas ljubazno zamolio da vaše štovanje Ante Pavelića i Adolfa Hitlera ostavite za svoje jazbine i iz njih ne izlazite. Hvala. Jakiša Tomić 22:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Jakiša, svaka ti čast, drago mi je da je već neko to lepo napisao da svi vide. Bravo, ura za Hrvate kao što si ti :-) --
serbiana - talk 23:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Hvala. Inače, ništa posebno. Svatko čisti smeće u svojoj kući pa ne vidim zašto bi na Wikipediji pravili iznimku. Jakiša Tomić 10:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Mene samo zanima zasto ima tako puno napisano o ustasam,dok o cetnicima ,koji su pocinili najgore zlocine od holokausta, ima par recenica, a najgora je ona u kojoj kazu da su cetnici brutalno ubili puno ljudu u Srebrenici I Vukovar? Prikazuju ih kao eto tako neku kraljevsku vojnu formaciju odanu svojoj kraljevini, dok su ustase prikazani kao najgori zlocinci sto su ikad postojali.Zasto se ne pise o tisucama ubijenih,mucenih i silovanih. Sta je sa cijelim selima koja su poklana od strane cetnika? I zasto se uopce govori o nepostojecim pretenzijama Hrvatske na ostala podrucja i tzv. ideji velike Hrvatske. Srbi imaju samo jako dobar PR i pokusavaju promijenti povijesne cinjenice. Barem budite posteni i koristite svjetski priznate povijesne cinjenice, a ne tu neke knjige po cika ovom i onom.
[edit] Jao
Jao tebi Tomicu jao tebi.
[edit] Concerning the gruesome photos
I see that the two particularly gruesome photos portraying Ustasha atrocities have been removed from the article without explanation by user 72.140.100.156. While there may be some merit to the contention that having images of such a repugnant nature in the article is an appeal to emotion and perhaps a distraction from the information of the article itself, it does not appear to me that that was at all the intention of said user. Rather, I am led to believe, unfortunately, by the history of said user's vandalizing articles concerning Croatian matters with what seems to be a racist bent, that the removal is in fact an instance of censorship. However, the matter of the appropriateness of the images to the article is certainly something worthy of consideration, and I think it should be discussed whether the images ought be restored, and a consensus formed. Personally, I feel at least one of the images ought to remain, but that using both was superfluous and not a little inordinant. Any thoughts?71.205.198.107 19:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- The picture with people holding a head (Image:Ustase1.png) is indeed gruesome; then again, the picture with people holding a person (Image:Ustasenoz.jpg) is not particularly obvious since I can't seem to see a knife or a saw on it (probably because it's black and white). I'm not sure either of them is particularly enlightening, although they are both quite scary.
- About the first image, notice another complaint above - section #The photo with the head. --Joy [shallot] 20:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reordering the Sections
I think it makes alot of sense to move the Ideology section to the begining of the arcticle, followed by History, and then the rest. As it stands now, the reader is told what the Ustashi did before bieng told why they did it. Crocodilicus 21:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Robert Kaplan
Why would Balkin Ghosts not be valid enough to mention? Since it documents allot of what is stated in this article. The mention is for reference. LoveMonkey 12:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discrepancy
"In all of Yugoslavia, the estimated number of Serb deaths was 487,000 according to Kočović, and 530,000 according to Žerjavić, out of a total of 1,014,000 or 1,027,000 deaths (resp.). Žerjavić further stated that there were 197,000 Serb civilians killed in NDH (78,000 as prisoners in Jasenovac and elsewhere) as well as 125,000 Serb combatants."
As per the above Žerjavić claimed 530,000 deaths, but he "further stated that there were 197,000 Serb civilians killed in NDH (78,000 as prisoners in Jasenovac and elsewhere) as well as 125,000 Serb combatants."
The difference between the two numbers is 208,000. Can anyone clear up this discrepancy?
Evelyn1010 13:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
so why are all the estimates that are used on this site from serbs?
jovan jovanovic estimates 20 billion serbs were killed by croats and it'll probably posted on this website numerous times hahahaha!
Hercegovac
[edit] Idiots!
seriously if you think a small army like the Ustase could kill 700 000 to over a million people in less than 4 years you are a f***ing retard!
Less than 100 thousand people died under the ustase and that includes serbs, croats, jews, cigani ect and most to all of those serbs were Cetnici and their supporters. It is not proven that 700 000 people were killed so why put it on a website that everyone uses as a source of information? Serbs hate Croats because they read this kind of bullshit about Croatians and they want revenge.
so to all the serbs, communist croats, and all these retarded members that put bullshit about victims and the ustase's beleifs you are f***ing Idiots!
serbian propaganda must be disregarded. ustase did not kill those ridiculous numbers, as stated above they only killed the political and other serbs such as chetniks and partisani that opposed an independant croatian state. croats have been fighting against serbs, russians and many other forms of evil for their own independant nation and in 1992 it finaly came. that is something that the serbs can never take from us but attempts will be made. croats never forget that the serbs will always be jealous, scheming and plotting to take our land, and we will always be there to fight. zivili hrvati
Znas li sta je problem hercegovackih Hrvata? To sto su do pre 100 godina bili Srbi, pa se sad kurce da su veci katolici od pape.
[edit] serbian propaganda?
The above comment “Idiots!” goes a long way to portray the ignorance, and ultra fascist ideologies that are still graced by many in Croatia.
Accrediting the crimes against humanity committed by Croats at Jasenovac to Serbian propaganda is historically irresponsible, and claiming that most of the victims were in fact “Chetniks” and therefore justifiably killed is as criminal as denying the holocaust all together. Were the Jewish victims at Jasenovac also Serbian Chetniks?!
According to Simon Wiesenthal Center, considered by many to be the authority on holocaust matters:
"Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs, expelled 250,000 and forced 250,000 to convert to Catholicism. They murdered thousands of Jews and Gypsies."
I fail to see how that’s Serbian propaganda.
This has nothing to do with finding reasons to hate Croatia, if anything putting these matters to rest and acknowledging them appropriately should help overcome. But not so long as there is general denial and justification from Croatians. This trend is worrying, not for Serbs, but for Croats. It is a part of your history that you have to come to terms with. You will not find many Germans justyfing the SS actions as self-defence.
[edit] =
Do you really think it's that general? Some Serbs have invested a lot of effort in duping people like you into believing that the Croatians are a bunch of bloodthirsty Holocaust deniers. You need to carefully re-read whatever history lessons you've been given before making such a blanket statement, because a lot of us are very passionate about dispelling this myth. Mihovil 01:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, you should sign your comments. Mihovil 01:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] =
I'm afraid you entirely missed the point of my comment. It is a fact that is hardly ever argued amongst historians that the Ustashe performed acts of genocide against Serbs, Jews, Roma and other minorities in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Still, you choose, either wilfully or through ignorance, to portray this as a myth. Again, it goes to strengthen my previous argument that a large portion of the Croatian public was never forced to come to terms with the horrors of their past, unlike the Germans, Japanese, Austrians, and other Axis powers, which is a dangerous precedent for the re-occurrence of fascist ideologies and such atrocities.
You present no real argument, supporting source, or fact, but a blind blanket statement that its all a myth? So according to you the Jasenovac concentration camp was invented by the Serbian and Jewish propaganda? And its name the "Auschwitz of the Balkans" was subsequently given by the Jewish survivors because their soul purpose is to portray Croatians as blood thirsty? If you truly believe this then I ask you to read virtually any reliable source on the matter and try to accept what you find. On the other hand, if you don't, and are simply trying to insult the memory of the victims by calling it all a "myth", I would ask you to refrain from doing so.
visit: http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac/ - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum http://www.jasenovac.org - Jasenovac Research Institute
p.s. Your strongest point was me not signing my name. For that I'm sorry, I am new to wiki and have not registered as of yet. But I'd ask you to separate your comments in the future as you simply added a paragraph to my previous post which is confusing at best.
Lazar
[edit] Croatian Ustashe Denial
It may not sound too objective, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Croats, among theselves, suopport and applaud the Ustashe's actions, yet deny most atrocities publicly. The NDH (new Ustasha party) counts the population's majority among its members. Among NDH supporters are the clinton-Albright-Berger team, and that's one reason why they committed the 1995 Serb extermination.
Sorry to sound partisan, but truth is not always PC. Wiki guidelines unfortunately satnd often between truth and the permitted content.Www.jpfo.org
[edit] You gotta love this...
75.199.43.11 03:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC) vonList I cannot understand how this article is controversial. The discussion section perhaps. Mostly I am afraid for my safety just commenting:
"Ustaše were implicated in over two dozen terrorist acts following the post-war period including bombings in the United States"
That is serious. For the record I would not trust either side in their argument. It's like playing ASSASSINS, kind of fun until you get grabbed by the ass with both hands.
To all those believing in our country, our constitution, and in our freedom - please continue to do a good job as you have demonstrated with this article.
[edit] Modified Intro
Modified 1990's reference in the into: from After the collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, there was a certain resurgence of Ustaše ideology and some paramilitary units claimed the mantle of the name.
to After the collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, there was a certain resurgence of Ustaše symbology coinciding with the residual hate from the recent war. This phenomenon was mitigated with the passing of legislation by the Croatian government banning Ustasha symbols and associated references.
The reasons for the change include:
- There is no evidence of resurgence in ideology, but lots of evidence of increase use of symbology especially around areas that suffered heavy casualties and devastation during the war - thus the adjustment to reflect this fact;
- No evidence of paramilitaries adopting the ideology - I do not count HOS in that group who had a Party of Rights agenda as opposed to an Ustasha agenda - often the two get confused as the same b/c the Ustasha was an offshoot of the party of rights and there was some crossover in political goals e.g. independent Croat state; notion of historical territory ;
- No mention of anti-hate speech legislation and the ban of Ustasha symbols - included mention of this in intro.
iruka 08:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Be Valid!
Nothing you said is credible. mm
[edit] Grossly Invalid
This article is digustingly biased and slanted. The bombardment of the Catholic Church is even more disturbing. This article should be written be a valid historian, not a Serbian crackpot. Hrcalifornia 01:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
