User talk:Urthogie/Archive7

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Contents 1 FOR THE LAST TIME 2 communication is necessary for collaboration to work 3 A poorly spelled question from Scotty 4 Please revert change 5 please help with category 6 Oops... with regard to hip-hop... 6.1 Ongoing hip-hop discussion 7 Scotty has a request 8 jacking in 9 Your taste in music 10 Monkey Gone Mad to rapcore 11 Hip Hop 12 re: note 13 Hip hop portal 14 Electronica 15 Request 16 The Scroll 17 Reply on hip hop 18 Disco 19 Welcome! 20 Welcome to Esperanza!

[edit] FOR THE LAST TIME

DO NOT POST TO MY TALK PAGE. YOU ARE UNWELCOME THERE. deeceevoice 14:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Replied on talk page.--Urthogie 14:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] communication is necessary for collaboration to work

This makes about six times now.

THAT'S WHAT ARTICLE

TALK PAGES ARE FOR.

I REPEAT DO NOT POST TO

MY TALK PAGE AGAIN

-- FOR ANY REASON.

deeceevoice 19:44, 2 March 2006

It is normal and reasonable Wikipedia practice to contact another user on their talk page even concerning article discussions. It is rude, petty and childish to behave as you are doing. — Matt Crypto 20:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Kindly refrain from such childish, rude, petty characterizations of my comments, Crypto, and get off my back. The article talk page is for discussions of articles, and it's perfectly reasonable to insist that article discussion be confined to that venue. User Urthogie has been asked repeatedly not to post to my talk page -- and that is my right. He's unwelcome, and he's expected to stay away. And I couldn't care LESS what you think of my perfectly reasonable request. deeceevoice 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I know more about Wikiquette than you, DCV, and your behaviour with your talk page is very unWikipedian. You are mistaken if you think you have some fundamental "right" to your talk page. If you continue acting in a way that's not beneficial to the project (e.g. being rude and refusing to communicate with others), then it's quite possible you will lose your privilege to order your own talk page as you wish (in the same way you lost your privilege to order your user page). — Matt Crypto 15:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I know more about Wikiquette than you, DCV Looks like you missed WP:DICK, though. Too bad. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Incredible, what can I say? User:Matt Crypto, what are you doing? El_C 07:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Explaining to Deeceevoice why her nastiness is unacceptable. — Matt Crypto 12:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Calton, that was unnecessary. — Matt Crypto 12:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This is what frustrates me about her claim that she doesn't edit wikipedia anymore.--Urthogie 21:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Her blanking out of comments she doesn't like is kind of like kids putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "La La La I Can't Hear You!!!" *Dan T.* 00:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Shrug. Some people are sensitive about the sound of high-pitched whining. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

And the same goes for you, Dtobias. I'm done here. *x* deeceevoice 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I will continue to post on your talk page as long as we're both editing the same article; its necessary.

It's understandable: if only the developers had thought to include talk pages with the articles, so editors could discuss article issues in an appropriate place. Damn the developers! Maybe they can include it in the next revision.

P.S.: WP:DICK makes good reading, Urthogie. You might learn from it. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Clueless developers... Urthogie is walking a fine line with these provocations. As is Matt Crypto. El_C 07:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's quite normal and reasonable to use User Talk pages, as well as article pages,, to discuss disagreements about articles, as you and Calton should know. It's Deeceevoice who's walking (and has crossed) a fine line here. I find it quite incredible that anyone could suggest it needs to be Urthogie (who posted a perfectly civil message on DCV's talk page) who needs to read WP:DICK, rather than Deeceevoice, given the above nastiness, and the unfriendly behaviour with her talk page. — Matt Crypto 12:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

We all know it isn't that simple or simplistically explained. He was asked many times to refrain from editing her talk page for querries pertaining to article content. Please find something more productive to do. Thanks. El_C 12:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason I edit her user talk page is because I find she only sometimes replies on the article talk page if I don't also post on her user talk page.--Urthogie 16:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course, nobody has an obligation to reply to anybody, and nobody has a right to have their comments read by somebody who doesn't want to read them. That said, I still think that Deeceevoice tends to behave in a rather rude, arrogant manner; making loud demands that somebody not write on her talk page, and deleting comments using pointed edit descriptions announcing that they were deleted unread, are tactics that seem to me to be in violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:DICK, though given her gender, "dick" might not be the appropriate bodily organ to be referred to. *Dan T.* 22:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A poorly spelled question from Scotty

why is it wrong to get rid of MY messages, i should be able to deleate them if i wont to, and if you dont wont me to then why dont you block my ablility to?

I'm sorry, we seem to have come to a misunderstanding. You seem to be under the impression thatI give a fuck.

[edit] Please revert change

Please refer to This Discussion that lead to the WP:MUSIC proposed change It should clear up how and why TUF KAT came up with the wording for and the reasoning for the changes made. Thank you so much! PS-Mos Def and and the Pharcyde got to where they are today by love and support from the underground, and it is articles about the underground that are being deleted for not meeting WP:MUSIC, when in fact if we make this one change, actually notable artists will have a stronger set of criteria to stand on. Madangry 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• Regarding your "By the way" on my talk page: That's a little silly. I believe underground music is just as valid and important as mainstream music. Now this proposed change is not proposing encyclopedic standards aside to promote underground music, rather we are simply trying to prevent articles from being placed on deletion on the basis of "It does not meet WP:MUSIC" when lots of underground acts can't meet those mainstreem guidlines. If an artist is not-notable or not verifiable, let it be deleted...but not on the basis that they haven't been mentioned in SPIN or not had a gold record etc. Madangry 21:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• • "Also, please note that something doesn't need to meet all requirements of WP:MUSIC to pass it: just one of them. So there's no expulsion of underground artists." With this new change I wholeheartedly agree. Now if only I could convince the fine folks who are marking underground artists and releases for deletion and furthermore those who deem the article as non-notable "per WP:Music" without researching the group this basic and SO TRUE statement. Thanks for liking the change. I'm an advocate, but TUF KAT and Rob came up with it. Madangry 21:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please help with category

Hey Urthogie. I see you're part of a project dealing with categories. I want to create a category but can't seem to find a page containing an 'idiots guide to creating categories'. The category I want to create is, "Wikipedians censored by Islamist editors". It's unusual & you may find it questionable. If so, feel free to ask me about it & I'll explain my motives. It probably needs to go directly under "Category:Wikipedians" as none of the Subcategories from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians seem suitable. Can you help me please? Veej 21:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for your help, Urthogie. You can see what I've created at Category:Wikipedians_censored_by_Islamist_editors. By the way, I feel a little unformfortable myself about this category because I don't want it to be hijacked by nutters. I'm not deliberately trying to be inflammatory & I don't want to offend people. I feel have have been bullied recently though. I just read user:OceanSplash's comments here. Though I disagree with user:OceanSplash on so many issues & believe he is generalizing followers of a major world religion, he does highlight a lack of a support structure for people critical of Islamists. I just want the category help people find support, so the don't feel alone. I'm definitely not trying to foster hate. One more thing, do you have any suggestions for anything I can do to avoid this category being hijacked by extremists, like rewording the description etc? Veej 23:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oops... with regard to hip-hop...

Urthogie,

Nice to spark a discussion. As to the relationship of those zany abstract fellas to poverty, I have almost no idea where you're coming from, because it appears as though the ones who claim to speak for the underclass are dudes like Common, Kweli, and them fellas from Little Brother. Aesop Rock might have made an album about the struggles of nine-to-fivers, but he doesn't really fetishize poverty, at least not insofar as I understand things.

KRS-One drives me absofuckinglutely crazy. He, above all others, claims to be a leader in the hip-hop culture-- declaring hip-hop a distinct culture before the United Nations, operating the Temple of Hiphop, et cetera-- but then he goes and makes totally insane statements like the one he made about how "black people cheered on 9/11 because World Trade Center security guards were racists. It's achingly stupid. And the dunderheadedness extends to his rap, as well-- or at least, those songs that I've heard (I've found most of the early stuff unlistenable and had trouble getting through it, but maybe I'm guilty of judging too quickly; all I know is that the stuff where he's celebrated for his lyrics more than his "edutainment" principle-- i.e. the middle period stuff, Return of the Boom Bap and that-- is simply some of the most annoying and abysmal faux-witty stuff I've ever heard.) He doesn't even try to flow on beat, which I could tolerate if he were rapping as though he had a brain in his head. But no-- he acts like he's the greatest rapper ever, but his actual lyrics are boring. Not to mention he doesn't appear to have an ounce of respect for the intelligence of anyone listening to him. What I can say for him is that "Wannabeemceez" is a pretty dope track, that the track where he dreams he's a blunt getting smoked by all his rapper pals is clever, and that "Build Ya Skillz" contains one of my favourite lines in the genre's history:

"NONE of your lyrics um feelin' em!... YOU RHYME... like you should be wearin' an apron scrapin' a pot wid a name like MIRIAM!!!

That I can't front on. He does deliver his rhymes with zest. And over the right beat, I can tolerate him, I suppose. But to my eyes he is, with the possible exception of Calypso Gene, far and away the most unjustly revered figure in the entire culture; and that's saying something.

I think Aesop Rock and some of the other abstract cats are clever writers, and sometimes one of them will come up with something genuinely beautiful; and of course they get to work with genius producers like RJD2 and Blockhead and Ant and Jel, which means I can't ignore their work even if I want to. But my favourite contemporary MCs are, I think, these cats, the only two who seem to be able to talk about absolutely any subject with honesty and intelligence, totally free of condescension, pretentiousness, didacticism, and lame bromides about how we've "gotta rise up" to "save hip-hop" from The Great Satan, the supposed destructive force (which in certain cases is actually as rich a repository of vital and engaging music as the Dearest Mother is.

[edit] Ongoing hip-hop discussion

Re: Undergrounders becoming popular and makin' crazy lucci

I've developed a generally positive perspective toward talented underground brothers makin' a little shrap and gaining a wider, if potentially less discerning fanbase. In fact, I'd be absolutely stone-cold thrilled if people stopped looking to the same four or five acts-- none of whom I like very much at all, especially not these guys-- as the paragons of "conscious rap", the only ones mainstream rap culture seems to know exist.

I'd love for Lyrics Born to be able to fulfill his dream of working with Dr. Dre-- he'd be able to match Eminem step for step. I'd love for Kanye to start throwing more beats to undergrounders (then again, he made a really terrible choice last time he did that). LB scored a Coca-Cola commercial and Kweli's doing a video game, but I ain't made at them cats at all; if moves like that increase their fanbase, more power to 'em. What it means is that they're gonna have more money at their disposal to make the music they want to be making-- and all that matters to me is that that music is good.

Re: Ant of Atmosphere I feel like Ant's production has been steadily improving; there's jams on the new Atmosphere jawn and the Brother Ali joint that I can listen to for the production alone, and I'm much more of a lyrics-oriented listener, so that's saying something. He's dabbling a lot more in funk and soul as a basic template, and the soundscapes he's crafted on those two albums are mondo entertaining no matter what kind of tripe (too emo in Slug's case, over-aggressive in Ali's) is being spit over 'em.

[edit] Scotty has a request

stop deleteing my stories!! You guys yell at me for deleteing my messages but you guys can go ahead and delete every story i have ever created, and they were not all bullshit. If you wont people to contribute to your website then i would recommend not deleting what they write!

[edit] jacking in

Hi, thanks for jacking in at the robeson page. I'll come up with a paragraph later in the week summarizing the editing war, and will let you know when it is there. was this posted somewhere so that now people are noticing it? (the page was ignored for so long) skywriter 15:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your taste in music

I just dropped by to say that we have very similar taste in music. It's cool to finally find someone who likes more soulful hip hop, as opposed to all the thug crap. I mean, all hip hop is great beat-wise, but why do so many rappers claim to be terrible criminals? If they're so bad, why aren't they in jail? What do you think of these guys; Kayne West, LA Symphony and Black Eyed Peas? If you like the soulful variety, you'd definitely like Peas; they named their band that because black-eyed peas are soul food, and their music is soulful (at least that's what they told Disney Adventures). Thanks! --Phantasy Phanatik 03:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monkey Gone Mad to rapcore

Thanks for recategorizing Monkey Gone Mad out of Hip hop groups into rapcore. I was kind of acting mechanically when I did that, and realized later how it didn't really fit. Had you heard of MGM before? I was just wondering what made you move it. bmearns, KSC_(talk) 21:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, sorry, I don't really follow hip hop or related genre's so I won't really be of much help to you in your recat's. But if you haven't already seen it WikiProject Music genres may be helpful to you. bmearns, KSC_(talk) 00:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hip Hop

Hey, I'm writing a value claim paper on hip hop: hip hop, undergroun hip hop, does not influence society in a negative way, it actually has a positive influence. I'm talking about the good stuff, not crap like twista or nelly.... How do you think I should go about this subject? Or is there anything you think I should add?

RhymeGladiators_IE

[edit] re: note

post your opinion on the talk page?

Could you please continue the discussion at Talk:Paul Robeson? Your opinion has been requested. Thanks, --Urthogie 21:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Is there a deadline? (I'm up to my eyeballs in work.) By the way, thanks for taking an interest. I've watched the discussion, am not optimistic a fair solution can be reached. skywriter 05:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hip hop portal

Portal:Hip hop seems like it never got off the ground; it should probably be deleted. Portal:Music is doing okay, but could use some attention; maybe you'd like to help a bit . TheJabberwock 02:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Electronica

I also think it's cool that you like electronica. Nowadays it seems like you can't like electronica if you're a hip hop fan (then again, DJ Shadow is pretty big, and so are many instrumental hip hop and trip hop artists, but that's beside the point). Eminem actually dissed Moby because "nobody listens to techno" and called him an obscene name recently. C'mon, Eminem; nobody likes a playa hata! --Phantasy Phanatik 09:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

I think I'll be o.k. with the rappers... but maybe a few more just in case I'm forgetting of some. Then I would probably say movements. It's kind of gonna be over everything. I don't have internet at home. Just school thanks

anything would help.

[edit] The Scroll

I noticed the you proposed The Scroll for deletion. If you're still interested in deleting it, it's been listed on afd.-PlasmaDragon 22:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply on hip hop

Thanks. So, you wouldn't say, as I have heard others say, that there is now a difference between rap and hip hop? Whereas rap is the "useless hip hop" (or mainstream) and hip hop music is (underground)hip hop. I had a conversation with some kid at school was just going on about this and it made sense and I agree with it, in a way, but most of it just sounded... I don't know. But I understand that 50 cent doing his thing and WIll Smith doing his is all hip hop. But I guess true lovers of underground believe that underground hip hop is the only true hip hop. So what would you say are some things that conscious hip hop may have influenced on society or youths? Would it be culture? strictly on African Americans?

[edit] Disco

In response to the message on my talk page... I like disco in general, and I don't really have a specific artist in mind. Basically anything from that era, Studio 54, funk, boogie, etc. As long as it's got a beat! ... discospinster 00:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really familiar with house music, actually. Is that a more recent type of music? My tastes seem to have stopped developing around 1991! ... discospinster 16:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

[edit] Welcome to Esperanza!

Misza13 ^{T C} 13:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

• I would also like to welcome you. - nathanrdotcom ^{(T • C • W)} 19:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)