Talk:Ur Kasdim

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I'll get to this later. But basically, the dispute is that the view that Ur is Ur is far, far more widespread among scholars and archaeologists today than any theory that ever identified it with Edessa. Also. you have to provide some more kind of source from anyone that says the Biblical Ur was Edessa, I seriously doubt it can be called a "traditional" view in anyone's tradition at any time. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Edessa is the traditional site of Abraham's birthplace which is an Islamic shrine although the tradition is not exclusively Muslim and was upheld by Jews of the area and is also the earliest view in Christian sources. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] Moladet

The Jewish understanding of the word moladet is "birthplace", despite King James and related translations rendering it as "kindred". Will try a compromise wording. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


Easton's Bible Dictionary: Mowledeth (mo-leh'-deth); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4138

1. kindred, birth, offspring, relatives
a.kindred
b. birth, circumstances of birth
c. one born, begotten, issue, offspring, female offspring

KJV Word Usage and Count

kindred 11
nativity 6
born 2
begotten 1
issue 1
native 1

The translation of "kindred" is far older than King James; the Septuagint does too. Indeed, most of the occurences of the word in the Tanach don't make any sense with any other interpretation. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 02:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To do list

  1. Criticism of Ur Kasdim = Urfa, identification seemingly based on similar name only, other traditional origins of name Urfa would invalidate this then
  2. Septuagint translation as region of Chaldeans not a city name + similar use of Ur in Akkadian
  3. Eupolemus on Camarina = Ouria
  4. Marcellinus on castle Ur near Hatra + counter argument
  5. Sumerian Ur most favoured + Cyrus Gordon's counter arguments + Woolleys claims
  6. Complications due to so many similar names now known
    1. Ura near Ugarit but not possible because in Cilicia
    2. Ura and Ure near Allalakh
    3. Ura + Uri near Ebla
    4. Big and small Uri near Nuzi
    5. Uru near Sippur
  7. Something about Acts talking about Abraham in Mesopotamia and how this relates to Aram Naharaim (the two are not strictly identical)
  8. Something about Midrashic interpretation of the name and legend of Nimrod throwing Abraham into fire

[edit] Site of "Ur" in Sumeria was in fact called Urima in Sumerian, Uriwa in Akkadian

Ur is, in fact, a misnomer. The city was properly called Urima, and later Uriwa. The designation URU before the name of a city is a Sumerian definitive prefix for city, i.e. "city of ..." In Hebrew, the word UR means flame or fire, not city.

The archeologist who excavated at Ebla, Giovanni Pettinato, was interviewed by B.A.R. on his findings in 1980. While he was in general very non-commital about linking any archeological findings to events in the Bible, he was emphatic about the existence of a city UR IN THE TERRRITORY OF HARRAN: http://members.bib-arch.org/nph-proxy.pl/000000A/http/www.basarchive.org/bswbSearch.asp=3fPubID=3dBSBA&Volume=3d6&Issue=3d5&ArticleID=3d5&UserID=3d0&

BAR: Does the city Ur appear in the territory of Haran in the Ebla tablets? Abraham was born in Ur, and travelled with his father to Haran. P: I remember. BAR: There has been some dispute about where the Biblical Ur is. P: I know. BAR: I wonder if the Ebla tablets shed any light on this. P: We know from the Ebla tablets that a city Ur was surely in northern Mesopotamia. BAR: You know this? P: In the territory of Haran. But that is all we can say. It was a city. If this is the city where Abraham came from 200, 300, or 400 or 500 years later, we don’t I know. BAR: But is this Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. BAR: And it’s referred to as Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. In one tablet, but we have the city itself mentioned often. In one tablet it is mentioned in Haranki, which can mean only in the region, in the territory of Haran. It is important for people to know this.

It should be added that since the most ancient Greek form of Edessa was spelled ORRA or ORROA, and since Edessa is indeed 'in the territory of Harran', it is definitely a prime candidate for Ur. Finally, the word 'Kasdim' is etymologically connected to one personal name in Genesis 22:22, Kesed, a nephew of Abraham and son of Nahor. Nahor, with his family, is explicitly mentioned as living in the vicinity of Haran in Aram Naharayim, and one of his descendants via a brother of Kesed is himself called Aram. I think this, and other information in Genesis about the association of the patriarchs in Northern Mesopotamia, tends to place Ur in that region. --JB

[edit] a defacto pov fork

This page is currently a de facto pov fork. Although not necesarrily created this way, This page is always going to be focusing on the "northern ur" theory, because no one would ever think to come to this page unless they already held doubts about normal Ur being Ur of the Chaldees. Adherants to Ur of sumerian fame in the Ur III period would just consider ur of the chaldees to be Ur and go there accordingly. Perhaps the page would be more appropriatly named "Northern Ur Theory" or somthing, since such a page could justifiably be all about Gordon's theory. Thanatosimii 01:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

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