Talk:University of Sydney

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flag University of Sydney is part of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
This article is supported by WikiProject Sydney.
WikiProject Australia To-do:

Contents

[edit] Rewording

Hi,

I have done some minor edits re: terminology. eg: School -> Faculty (of Arts, etc), fixed "field ancillary to medicine" to the correct "allied health disciplines", etc.

--DaveB 11:15, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] most prestigous? and ARC grants

I know that the University of Sydney is one of the most prestigous universities in Australia, but I'm not sure how I'd prove that to someone from (say) Finland. Getting the largest portion of ARC grants in a year does prove that Sydney is a leading research uni, but that won't change if we rank 3rd or 4th on that measure next year. I think it's best to avoid ephemeral "X of the year 2005" measures of status in an encyclopedia, anyway. -- Danny Yee 01:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Saying it's "one of the most pretigious" I think is ok, because it doessn't imply the most pretigious from year to year. Saying best of in 2005 is ok too I think because this is Wikipedia, not the Encyclopedia Britannica, and we can edit this any time any day. Enochlau 05:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
It's most prestigious because it is most likely the only Australian university someone from Finland would have heard about. Tell them about University of New South Wales and they'll say, "yah, I know Wales. It's in Britain." --Sumple 03:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Then again, any intelligent person from Finland wouldn't look at USyd and automatically see prestige, they'd look into it first and probably judge it to be a decent university along with the ANU and UNSW. Actually, I doubt anyone from outside Australia is actually aware of any Australian universities by name, they could just guess ones at random (Sydney + University = Sydney University). Do you know the names of any universities in Finland without guessing? No? I didn't think so. Prestige cannot be proven, and I'm not a completely jealous UNSW student and hence won't be editing the article (which would probably be promptly edited back), but please keep a neutral POV in this article, especially when it comes to matters like these which are completely unproveable.Nebuchanezzar 12:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable faculty section

I don't know about this section - there are probably scores to hundreds of academic staff notable in their particular field. --Daveb 05:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

At the same time, it's probably good to link to people like Dr Karl. Perhaps set the eminence requirement very high so we end up with a more constricted list? Enochlau 11:07, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I wonder where we draw the line at who is "notable" and who is not? Dr Karl is obviously someone well known to the public. But, as Daveb suggested, would someone like Professor Graham Johnston who is world renowned in pharmacology be included here? -Techelf 13:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
That is indeed difficult, in that users outside a particular field who have never heard of those eminent people might be trigger happy and delete additions quickly. What I propose is that we include those people who currently have an article on Wikipedia or those who have contributed enough for a reasonably sized entry on Wikipedia - there's a practical side to this in that it'll keep down the number of red links. What do you think? Enochlau 14:00, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm also starting to think that the Alumni list is getting quite unruly. Maybe the same tough standards should apply there too. Kewpid 03:19, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed. In particular, I find the details concerning the leaders of the political parties rather excessive and unnecessary. Enochlau 10:34, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I've never head of the two archaeology professors listed... And I'm pretty well read, even if I'm not an archaeologist. I vote to scrap the section entirely. Danny Yee 05:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
In its current state, I wouldn't mind having it go, but at the same time, I think such a list of prominent people is useful and encyclopedic - it's just that I'm not quite sure where to find such a list. Enochlau 07:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it should go; at present the list is in a poor state, and improving it would require some method of determining "notability". The article would do better to focus on the University itself. Cheers, --Daveb 13:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I have been bold and removed the two "notable" sections: such lists are plagued with problems (see above for some), it is questionable whether they really provide any useful information about the University to the readers, and the article would be better off focussing on the university itself. --Daveb 03:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you just start a link to another page for the "University of Sydney Alumni" instead of getting rid of it altogether? Information should only be removed if it is factually incorrect. Its better to have more information which is superfluous, than not having it at all. I understand that it may clutter the main article, but don't get rid of it altogether! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.185.71.82 (talk • contribs) 17 December 2005.
The major issue indeed in whether such a list can ever be "factually correct" in determining notability: what is notable and what isn't largely comes down to POV... just look at the articles nominated for deletion to see how this issue is troublesome. --Daveb 05:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
While I agree criteria for inclusion in such lists can be problematic; looking at the listed that has been deleted, we can see that a large number of the alumni listed had pages detailed to them on wikipedia already. IF they are notable enough to garner a 'notable' wikipedia article -- surely that is evidence enough to merit inclusion in such a list! novacatz 07:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Going through the list in a bit more detail, we can see that almost all the alumni have non-stubby articles (usually 2-3+ paragraphs). I went ahead with creation of a alumni page + linkage from here. novacatz 07:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Good idea! I've added a "the" to the title because the name of the university contains a "the" in it; this page doesn't have it due to the title naming guidelines removing "the" at the front. Enochlau 09:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Establishment section

The first sentence of this section is factually incorrect on two counts. NSW did not ceace to be a colony of Britain in the 1840s, and the Legislative Council established during this era was far from democratic.

I think deleting that first sentence would be a good idea.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AndrewT (talk • contribs) 30 September 2005.

Indeed you're correct. I'm not sure why the rest of us didn't pick this up earlier. -Techelf 10:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
On checking the source of that sentence (see the foundingdocs link) it should say that NSW ceased to be penal colony in the 1840's, in the sense that transportation of convicts stopped. And it was moving towards a democratic government. 1855 is regarded as "beginning of responsible government in NSW". I don't know precisely what the sentence said, so I can't add it back. --Sumple 03:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the status of NSW is relevant to the University of Sydney article. Just leave it out. enochlau (talk) 03:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports section

I've placed an expansion tag on that - it's a useful section to have I think, but could do with more detail. In particular, sydney uni has a soccer team doesn't it? anyone know anything about it? Enochlau 00:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

sydney uni also has a chess club. --Sumple 04:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] most prestigious and ARC grants

Danny, I see where you are coming from.

But...I do notice that the entry for Australian National University claims that it is the "best" in Australia, and Melbourne University is claiming that it is also one the the most "prestigious" universities in Australia. If these other Australian univerisities are claiming these things, Sydney University also has a right (possibly more of a right)to claim that it is one of the most prestigious.

The reference to the Australian Research Council grants was put in there to provide some recent justification to this claim. Anyway, I know for a fact that Sydney has been receiving the most grants for at least the past 6 years.

If not, Wikipedia can always be updated next year.

Cleric

well "best" is definitely POV, someone should correct that! If Sydney has been receiving the most ARC grants for the last six years, that would make a better statement than the current "in 2005", which (to me) strongly suggests things were different in 2004... -- Danny Yee 05:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
See my reply above. Just write "one of the best". Easy. Enochlau 05:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gradual expansion

Call me crazy but I've borrowed some stuff from Fisher and I'll gradually expand it over the next couple of weeks. Just letting you all know in case you're wondering why the article might be a little unbalanced while I write it in dribs and drabs. Enochlau 09:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Rewording

I cleaned up the second paragraph of the HISTORY section a bit and added the date of the royal charter(February 27). Drn8 03:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. enochlau (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's all work to make this a featured article yeh? :) enochlau (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Crap! Thanks for the graphs Enoch, I didn't realise the Howard government had cut university funding by that much. Kewpid 18:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Haha yeh, although the sharp decline looks as if it started in the late 80s, Howard just continued it - would that have been Hawke instead? enochlau (talk) 01:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Judo club

There isn't actually any content to merge! Can we just delete the judo club entry? (If we are going to cover clubs here, we should have some guidelines as to how much info we provide for each club, otherwise we risk having lots about a few clubs and nothing about most.) -- Danny Yee 08:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I added the merge notice hoping someone associated with the University knew more of the judo clubs noteworthiness. If the club isn't worthy of inclusion here, it can be listed for deletion. -- Longhair 08:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made some general comments on the topic of clubs and socs below. Cheers, --Daveb 08:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge (or preferably delete the other page) Dankru 14:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I see it has been listed on WP:AFD - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sydney University Judo Club. --Daveb 14:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Don't think stuff like judo clubs are that relevant. If you include judo clubs then as a amtter of consistency other tiny little clubs like chocolate loving students society would also need to be included... --Sumple 04:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Ahem, there's such a club? :P enochlau (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clubs and socs in general

USyd has over 250 clubs and societies [1].

Large organisations with interesting history and significant operations aside from just being a uni club may warrant their own article, e.g. the Medical Society (has been around for 120 years, runs possibly Australia's largest medical book provider, has well-known and referenced public orations, has multiple publications, has made submissions to government bodies, has appeared before Australian Senate hearings, etc) or similar organisations might be notable enough for an article, however most clubs are small and not particularly notable and as such do not warrant articles.

It would also be unwiedly to include them all in this article. The best approach is to give an overview in the main article of:

  • The major students organisations (Union, SRC, SUPRA, SU Sport).
  • The general topic of clubs and socs at USyd (more-or-less as the article does now, although it could perhaps have its tone made more encyclopaedic). This could include a link to the Union's clubs and socs page for those wishing to find out more.

Cheers, --Daveb 08:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that is a good criterion - having significant operations aside from just being a uni club. (Law Society is another one). But one potential problem might be societies which have external affiliations, which may or may not be very large or significant on campus. I'm thinking of the politically affiliated clubs; the NGO-affiliated clubs, and the international scam societies (Golden Key, to name a prime example). --Sumple 22:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faculty 2,451

On the summary panel it says there are 2451 faculties. Do I understand this correctly? Faculties as in Engineering, Law etc?!? CW 14:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

2,451 teaching staff. - Randwicked Alex B 15:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, looks like use of the American English way of describing academic staff as "faculty". --Daveb 13:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Down with Ameriglish!
I notice it's been changed to "academic staff". Is that true? Does the figure include the support staff and general staff? like all the tech ppl and the accounts ppl and the casual tutors?--Sumple 23:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
See http://www.usyd.edu.au/about/profile/pub/facts.shtml enochlau (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 45,966 students

This figure is meaninglessly accurate - the number of enrolled students goes up and down every week, let alone over the course of a year - and provides spurious precision. You don't see the entry for Australia giving the census figures to the nearest person, it just says "around 20.4 million people".

It's also much harder for someone scanning the article to read - 46,000 is clearly a number in the mid 40 thousands, which is all anyone cares about, whereas the extra digits in 45,966 make scanning that little bit harder. (There's a reason we've approximated the FTE staff number to 2,300; the same reason applies to the student number.) -- Danny Yee 22:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think your claims are incorrect:
  • The figure is not meaninglessly accurate. The university knows precisely how many students have enrolled in it. Of course, the figure changes from week to week as people have classes at different times, but there is a fixed number of students enrolled at a university.
  • It is not that much harder to read, and being an encyclopedia, I think we should be as precise as possible.
  • The reason why the staff number is 2,300 is because that's exactly what it is surprisingly. The actual number is 2,299.xx but saying part of a person sounds funny, so I rounded it off to the nearest whole number. If you're worried about consistency, we can go ahead and write in the decimal points.
I propose that we change it back to the precise figure. enochlau (talk) 02:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it should be changed back to the precie number.
While you may think that students "drop out" etc, the enrolment is known with precision because there are census dates by which drop-outs are not possible. These are the dates on which your HECS debt are calculated. So each semester, on census day, the university knows precisely how many people are enrolled, and that number will not change for the rest of the semester. Even if people do not attend classes anymore, they stayed enrolled past that date.
See [2] for detailed statistics.
On the staff issue - i think the .xx represents part time people, or job sharing? --Sumple 02:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I think so, I think they also include part time tutors as well, who don't work full time (maybe 5 hours a week or something). enochlau (talk) 03:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The staff figure is in FT equivalents, so a half-time employee would count as 0.5. So we should actually say "2300 full-time equivalent staff" - the number of staff is presumably the 2451 figure in the infobox (though I would have thought there'd be more part-time staff than that). -- Danny Yee 04:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have a feeling the 2,451 figure is the 2004 (fte) number; I've seen that number for a long time. enochlau (talk) 11:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
We should probably update the infobox then. Also, as a member of the general staff myself, I'd prefer to give a figure for total staff, not just academics. I can't seem to find one, though. -- Danny Yee 12:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
As for the number of students, sure, at some point last year there may have been exactly 45,966 students enrolled (though that may be a FT equivalent figure too). But the number would have gone up and down over the course of the year and giving an exact number just makes it hard for a reader to extract the important information, which is that the figure is in the mid 40 thousands. This entry is not a formal document for a DEST audit, it's aimed at a general reader! (We have better figures for the population of Australia than "20.4 million", but one decimal place is still plenty of accuracy to give in the Australia article.) -- Danny Yee 04:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Given we don't know what time of year that number was calculated at, how can its precise value be of any use to anyone? But change it back if you really think someone will want it - it looks unprofessional to me, but it's hardly a cardinal sin. -- Danny Yee 04:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The website says it was last updated on 14-Dec-2005, so it should be the final figures for 2005. Will change back now. enochlau (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Danny did you even read my post? see the bit with the "census date" in bold. To re-iterate, enrolments do not change after a certain day during each semester. --Sumple 05:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the issue of dropping out after the census date is slightly more complicated that Sumple presents, but the census date figure is still an official figure used by the university. Fees and other things are based on status at that date, so I think it's worth using that number. I'd guess that it is actually the number of students, rather than full time equivalent students, but that's probably worth checking. JPD (talk) 10:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Students can and do discontinue in between census dates, so the number of enroled students most certainly does change! (If they discontinue too late they may still have to pay HECS, but they will no longer be students - and there are academic differences between discontinuing and just failing.) The census dates are just a formal accounting point for DEST paperwork - I believe there are two of them each year - and I really can't see how the exact census figure is of interest to anyone except the bureaucrats. But if you all think it matters, it's not a huge issue. -- Danny Yee 12:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, the census day is not the last day to drop out. but anyway... --Sumple 22:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter what it is, we're just reporting what the university reports. enochlau (talk) 23:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

(resetting indent & dropping in from WP:AWNB) I think 45,966 is unnecessarily accurate. Or it would be, if it was accurate. I agree with Danny Yee that it is "spurious precision". If necessary, put the round figure in the lead, and in a later section on 2005/Enrolments/whatever, you can say there was 45,966 students officially enrolled in 2005 by the census date of March whatever whatever. If you're going to be that accurate, you need the context, and that's not appropriate for the lead. pfctdayelise 03:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "arguably one of the best"

I already reverted one of his edits and signed his talk page, but a user is adding snippets like "arguably one of the best schools" and "one of the hardest to get into". I wouldn't know, since I'm not from there, but those appear to me to be POV. -- goatasaur 03:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes. Not to mention inserting lines on how awesome the USyd Law School is into articles on other universities... - Randwicked Alex B 03:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, isn't it a fact, not conjecture, that it is the hardest to get into? It does have the highest entrance requirements. enochlau (talk) 03:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
WIkipedia is not the UAC guide 2006. :| - Randwicked Alex B 03:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
A brief glance at Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words will help here. Citing reliable sources and avoiding the use of weasel words altogether will assist with neutralising the article. -- Longhair 03:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Obviously sydney law school is the best. but you don't go around blabbing that kind of thing. --Sumple 03:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Saying that it's "arguably the best" is certainly POV and should be cut, but I think it's relevant to mention that a Combined Law degree has the highest UAI cut-off, at least in NSW if not in Australia. Braue 06:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
According to this year's UAI cutoffs, USyd is beating UNSW in BSc, BA, LLB, BCom, BEc, and the architecture degree. --Sumple 02:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the cut-off? Xtra 02:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

99.6 for 2003/4/5 and 99.55 for 2006. enochlau (talk) 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Its pretty much a supply v demand thing. It depends on both the number of people who want to gewt in to each place, and how many places are available at each. Mind you (I am not from Sydney) I have been told that the UNSW Law course is better.Xtra 03:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's a supply and demand thing, but if it does prove to be the course in Australia with the highest entrance requirements, that is somewhat noteworthy and something we should consider mentioning. Clearly you've been speaking to UNSW people ;) The thing is, comparing law schools is kind of pointless because it's impossible to compare them yourself if you've only been to one. enochlau (talk) 03:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Was there recently a few different studies which judged uni's in different areas (like teacher quality) and gave them ranks based on that?
I would like to know actual numbers of applicants to various cources at various uni's. We should also keep in mind that number of applicants is weighted more heavily towards uni's in big cities, simple because there is a larger pool of people. (why did i do law - i should have become a statastician) Xtra 03:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The Times Education Supplement (there's an article in wikipedia somewhere) ranks Australian unis as ANU, Melb, USyd, then UNSW, I think. --Sumple 03:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Page 7 of [3] gives the number of applicants per university, but it's not broken down by course. enochlau (talk) 04:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Woa, I just looked up the VTAC website and the clearly in has skyrocketed for law since I got in. Xtra 04:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Have you got a link? enochlau (talk) 04:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
[4]. Xtra 04:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Residential Colleges

I have created a template for the Colleges and added it to the University page and those College pages that exist. More need doing. I'm working on St John's. The template is at Template:University of Sydney Colleges. --Bduke 22:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image identification

Re: this edit - an anonymous user changed the caption on my image, Image:Usyd Anderson Stuart.jpg from being Anderson Stuart to the Clock Tower. Is that correct? I took it a while back so I can't remember where I took it, and admittedly both look kind of similar - but the image does have a clock on it! So, opinion please - have I misidentified my own picture? Thanks. enochlau (talk) 13:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

try http://community.webshots.com/album/368181626PnhZPB Xtra 14:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks like clock tower! Tho I will check when I go there on Monday... enochlau (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
It's the great tower. anderson stuart does not have sticking-out windows at the front. --Sumple (Talk) 23:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Yep, definitely the carillon tower on the eastern side of the main quad. -Techelf 04:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The University of Sydney? Or just University of Sydney?

Hello. I'm wondering why the University infobox uses the name "The University of Sydney" instead of just "University of Sydney"? Shouldn't it be proper to use the latter instead? --60.49.111.41 19:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the actual name of the university has the "the" in it. The article name doesn't have a "the" because of the manual of style: WP:MOS. enochlau (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IP Address/ 129.78.64.106

129.78.64.106 - this is the IP address for Wikipedia contributors originating from Sydney University (Camperdown/Darlington campus). I know, I was one of them. Htra0497 17:31 25th May 2006 (AET)

Yes, it gets blocked sometimes... there are obviously some very immature uni students floating around. enochlau (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it's more likely to be university academic or support staff as they're the ones with free untimed internet access. You can just imagine the scene. Htra0497 22:24 21th August 2006 (AET)
Students get (limited) free internet at the Access Labs... enochlau (talk) 13:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prestige arising from history

Hi,

I think it'll be a good idea to express the prestige that University of Sydney possess from being the first University in Australia. This might be particularly potent in stressing the excellence in different faculties.

For example, the fact that our medicine faculty has been around for 150 years, or the fact that we've had the most high court judges, or the fact that our law faculty is arguably the best in terms of student demand etc.

Read WP:NPOV. enochlau (talk) 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethiopia was where, supposedly, humans originated. Does that make it a better country, and worthy of the "prestige" title? Of course not, your idea is foolish. Keep this article as a damn encyclopedia entry, not an advertisement like the Newington College article has become (before many great wikipedians edited it). I don't see a problem with saying that it's the oldest university and hence has had more time to develop, and because of that has a higher standing over many smaller universities. But to go and blatantly say "This uni has been around longer, it's made more useless judges and thus it's Australias best university" is plain foolishness. Nebuchanezzar 12:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I don't see how it is a form of advertisement, or subjective, if one states that "University of Sydney has produced the most high court judges than any other University in Australia" - one, it's a fact, and two, I browse through other no doubt high quality wikipedia entries on other Universities - Harvard Uni for example has a whole section expressing how it's America's oldest University, and how people have made all sorts of movies there etc.; isn't that blatant advertisement? Or is it just because not enough 'great wikipedians' have gone there and edited it? I'm not saying that they're wrong, I'm merely saying that it's not incorrect for us to include true facts about Sydney Uni, so that students can be proud of and users of wikipedia can obtain a truer and fairer view of Sydney Uni.

Please re-read what I've written first before criticising it; nowhere in the text of what I've written states that I want to say "University of Sydney is Australia's best", or anything which is not true.

Thanks.

You said it in the context of expressing the university's "excellence" in some faculties. Sure, point out achievements, but it needs to be a balanced article in the end. enochlau (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello All, a clear measure of the University's "prestige" is the sentiment of its potential students. UAC statistics show that more UAI high acheiving high school students allocated the UOS as a first preference than any other university... this surely says something about "prestige" which is in itself a subjective notion. At the least, it can be said that it is held to be the most prestigious (as expressed by student applicatons) but that prestige can never be proven appart form sentiments of interested people/ AMONTHEMERCIFUL

Not really. I don't know the stats for USyd, but to give an analogy Fort Street High School always has the highest percentage of preferences in the selective schools exam - but it does crap as in the Higer School Certificate, and is not the hardest to get in. Without excellence and exclusiveness, you can't really claim prestige. --Sumple (Talk) 12:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Fort Street High has Private School competition, that is why it is not prestigious... "excellence" comes from having the highest no. of Nobel L's and highest research fund grants... "exclusiveness" comes from having the highest UAI entry standard for LLB... no other course at all universities has the highest UAI standard than UOS LLB... It is the hardest course to enter.
I don't know of any other measure of "exclusiveness" than: (1)the highest demand to enter (as expressed by UAC applications) and;(2)the highest restriction on entry... also, 'prestige' is not defined as high acheiving... it is a sentiment... not an outcome...
As an encyclopedia, it's not our job to tell people the university has "prestige", whatever that may be. enochlau (talk) 09:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think if it's a very clear cut case, then you could say something - e.g. Oxford and Cambridge are the most prestigious universities in the UK. But you can't really say that with Australian unis coz you can make an argument for prestige with many unis. ANU for example. --Sumple (Talk) 12:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"you can make an argument for prestige with many unis" - may I ask what criteria you use to make such statement...
The purpose of an encyclopedia is indeed to state that something has "prestige" if it indeed has it ;) think about it - what else do you suggest is to be omitted from an encyclopedia - do you have any defined definitive criteria, or are you just making statemnets without reasoned basis?
ANU is always higher in ranking. So are (usually) Melb and Monash and (often) UNSW. ANU has many famous professors. What, apart from UAI (and mind you, that is an indicator only in NSW), can support this claim of prestige? --Sumple (Talk) 11:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


'Prestige' may be defined as, "the level of respect at which one is regarded by others" - it is cleary a subjective thing - whether that level of respect is deserved or not is immaterial. In any case, there are enough people on this thread arguing for the term 'prestige' to make it so regarded by them, even if it is not deserved in UAI, ranking, or whatever other standard...

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we can discuss the reasons that it may or may not be deserved, but as I noted above, it is completely immaterail to the definion and, hence, the use of the term 'prestige' on the page. We must be precise when using terms in an encyclopedia, and your emotive response to an undeserved use of the term does not make it any less true of it fitting the definition above. It is subjective, deserved or not, hence, it is used on the page - talk to the forefathers of the english lanuguage or the publishers of the english dictionary if you don't like the meaning... It seems that it is your mis-comprehension of the menaing of the term which leads to your emotive opposition to its use on the page. 'Pretige' of an institution relates solely to the sentiment of the public to that institution - that sentiment is dynamic and may be influenced by other standards such as history, rankings, Nobel Lauretes, and the factor influencing that sentiment will change as the important standards of society change... It is a cultural holding in the minds of the populace and not an outcome measured by standards. It is in the minds of the people, and not in the thing itself - it is, as so defined, "the level of respect at which [an institution] is regarded by others" and the institution may be regarded a high level of respect for no particular reason at all, but it will have the defined 'prestige' nonetheless. [AmonTheMerciful]

[edit] Oxbridge inspiration?

A proposed re-wording of:

"Centred on the Oxbridge-inspired grounds of the University's Main Campus..."

Does not the phrase "Main Campus" embrace the whole Camperdown/Redfern site? In that case what is "Oxbridge-inspired" about it besides the Quadrangle alone? The closest I can think of is the nearby Medical School building, while the three residential colleges are off the beaten track of normal student pedestrian traffic. The above sentence conveys a misleading picture IMHO.

Pádraig Coogan 22:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The physics building, the buildings along science road? holme? and the residential colleges, as you say. Perhaps "oxbridge-inspired campberdown campus", for accuracy?
I think the current wording is fine. No one in their right mind would think the entire main campus was oxbridge inspired. We have new buildings after all. I think it's mainly a reference to the sandstone stuff. enochlau (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rankings

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/anu-up-there-with-the-best/2006/10/05/1159641468047.html

New rankings have come in. enochlau (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../u/n/i/Talk%7EUniversity_of_Sydney_a399.html"